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77 T140V rear wheel issue #478523
02/25/13 5:01 pm
02/25/13 5:01 pm
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
fredguaz Offline OP
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fredguaz  Offline OP
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Lake Norman, NC
O.K. guys. DCO (dumb current owner) here's what I got. 77 T140V with new Cheng Shin K81 tires, stock rims laced up by Buchanans with the thicker spokes. Also new sealed bearings installed by yours truly and have proper washer on speedo drive, etc. I have read numerous (2 days worth) post on rear wheel alignment. At first disc was rubbing on outboard pad but I got that sorted by putting brake stay on outside of mounting lug. All line up is now good. Rear wheel aligns with front wheel good. About 1 inch clearance with tire and chain and approx 1/4 to 1/2 inch clearance tire to brake MC housing. The problem is when I tighten up the rear axle nut, the wheel is binding somewhere! Pads show clearance and movement, MC is clear.
So, before I pull the rear wheel off to check the bearings are in properly I wanted to check this board to see if I missed anything. Do the clearances sound normal? particularly the tire to MC? Also, (drum roll) when I installed the bearings, one of them seemed a loose fit, so DCO put some blue loctite (amateur enthusiast) around the bearing. This was before I read John Healy describe that one of the bearings is a loose fit to locate the wheel. Also, I reinstalled the dust cap on the sealed bearings as was suggested on this forum. So my questions are, Could the wheel be binding because of the blue loctite not allowing the wheel to locate and should I leave out the dust cap? Would either of these be causing the binding on nip up? Thank you


fredguaz
1977 Bonneville T140V
2005 BMW R1200GS
2007 Ducati Multistrada 1100s
1971 Honda CT-70 Ko
1972 Honda CT-70 K1
1977 Fiat 124 Spider (Current project)
1990 GMC S-15 Jimmy (Daily rider) (Sold)


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Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478527
02/25/13 5:29 pm
02/25/13 5:29 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,409
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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fred -

Do you have the three bearing spacers installed correctly?

I would get rid of the loctite!

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478530
02/25/13 5:57 pm
02/25/13 5:57 pm
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
fredguaz Offline OP
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fredguaz  Offline OP
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Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
Steve, I will have to check. I remember being confused as to which way they go and parts book was of little help. Item 30 (in parts book) extends outside on the drive side. Item 11 (inner sleeve) and item 15, spacer inner RH, will need looking at. Seems by memory that both outer spacers can only be installed one way. Not sure about the inner sleeve. Any guidance on orientation of these 3 spacers? Surgery is set up for tomorrow to remove clogged bearing artery! What about dust cap (14) and grease retainer (32)? should I leave them in?


fredguaz
1977 Bonneville T140V
2005 BMW R1200GS
2007 Ducati Multistrada 1100s
1971 Honda CT-70 Ko
1972 Honda CT-70 K1
1977 Fiat 124 Spider (Current project)
1990 GMC S-15 Jimmy (Daily rider) (Sold)


"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!"
Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478533
02/25/13 6:33 pm
02/25/13 6:33 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,522
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
JBMorris Offline
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JBMorris  Offline
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Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Quote:
At first disc was rubbing on outboard pad but I got that sorted by putting brake stay on outside of mounting lug.


As I recall the brake torque stay should be loosened but not necessarily re-positioned while fitting the rear wheel.

Sounds like the bearing not seated correctly or damaged- or both?


1978 Bonneville T140V PX
Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478559
02/25/13 9:02 pm
02/25/13 9:02 pm
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
fredguaz Offline OP
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fredguaz  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
JBM I saw in an older post that the brake stay should be outside the welded lug with the shouldered bolt head outside and the nut inside. I had it reversed when I rebuilt the caliper/MC. This fixed the brake pad binding.
How free should the rear wheel spin when the spindle nut is tightened? I can spin the wheel with one hand but requires an effort. Should the wheel spin freely with only the chain resistance? Thanks.


fredguaz
1977 Bonneville T140V
2005 BMW R1200GS
2007 Ducati Multistrada 1100s
1971 Honda CT-70 Ko
1972 Honda CT-70 K1
1977 Fiat 124 Spider (Current project)
1990 GMC S-15 Jimmy (Daily rider) (Sold)


"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!"
Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478560
02/25/13 9:02 pm
02/25/13 9:02 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,409
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Posts: 7,409
Back on the mainland!
I think I may have a photo of the spacer orientation somewhere....will have to look for it....

You do have the speedo drive gearbox washer (37-7021), yes? Should be installed between the outside of the speedo drive unit and the inside surface of the brake caliper plate.

I once installed that washer on the drive side by mistake and ended up with the disc sprocket nut washer (70-8770) on the speedo drive and the wheel bound up.

Steve

Attached Files Wheel.jpg

'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478567
02/25/13 9:52 pm
02/25/13 9:52 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,688
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
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L.A.B.  Offline
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Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted By: fredguaz
I saw in an older post that the brake stay should be outside the welded lug with the shouldered bolt head outside and the nut inside.


It certainly wouldn't fit that way on my '78 T140.

The shouldered bolt and stay are definitely inside the swinging arm lug.

Originally Posted By: JBMorris
As I recall the brake torque stay should be loosened but not necessarily re-positioned while fitting the rear wheel.


Both ends of the stay have shouldered fittings so the stay and caliper plate should still pivot and move with the wheel, even with both fittings tightened.

Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478573
02/25/13 10:41 pm
02/25/13 10:41 pm
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
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P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
You could leave out the outer dust cover on the timing-side bearing.I don't think that will make much difference.

It sounds like the the outer race of the timing-side bearing is not driven far enough into the hub.

With everything tight,give the sprocket a whack with a plastic hammer.That may move the bearing further into the hub,and free things up.

Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478627
02/26/13 4:12 am
02/26/13 4:12 am
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
fredguaz Offline OP
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fredguaz  Offline OP
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Lake Norman, NC
Oh Boy! Steve yes I have the large washer up against the speedo drive, and thank you. I have that attach. in the workshop manual. LAB, when I had the wheel binding up against the outboard pad, I saw this post on the other triumph.rat forum:

"Just before you go delving back into the master cylinder, check that you have fitted the caliper assembly to the wheel/swing arm properly. The torque stay arm goes on the outside of the lug welded to the bottom of the swing-arm, with the head of the special bolt on the outside, and the nut on the wheel side. If you put the torqe stay arm on the inside of the lug, the whole assembly gets twisted, and the pads make permament "hard" contact with the disc.
With the axle nut loosened right off, the swing arm moves outwards away from the wheel hub, and the torque stay arm does align on the inside of the lug - don't be fooled by this.
This is a peculiarity of the underslung rear caliper on the 76/77 model."

So when I did that my binding on the outer pad stopped. So who has it right I wonder ?? Steve, how is your Jubee brake stay oriented? The binding seems to be internal with the bearings because when I tighten up the spindle, there is free play between both pads. Peter, I may try that plastic hammer routine but I'm afraid that may ruin my new bearings. No? Isn't that pressure on the inner race ?


fredguaz
1977 Bonneville T140V
2005 BMW R1200GS
2007 Ducati Multistrada 1100s
1971 Honda CT-70 Ko
1972 Honda CT-70 K1
1977 Fiat 124 Spider (Current project)
1990 GMC S-15 Jimmy (Daily rider) (Sold)


"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!"
Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478632
02/26/13 5:24 am
02/26/13 5:24 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
It would be best if you could move the outer race of the R/H bearing inward while there is clamping force from the axle clamping the inner races together and crushing the spacer sleeve.
The spacer sleeve will compress slighly from axle tension (like rubber,all metal is elastic),and the inner races move toward each other.The outer races need to move toward each other too.Everything should be free when th axle is tight.

When you release tension on the axle,there will be some binding when the spacer relaxes and tries to push the bearings apart.You don't run it like that,so it doesn't matter.

Easiest fix is to just whack the sprocket with a plastic hammer,when everthing is tight.

Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478653
02/26/13 11:00 am
02/26/13 11:00 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,688
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
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L.A.B.  Offline
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Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted By: fredguaz
LAB, when I had the wheel binding up against the outboard pad, I saw this post on the other triumph.rat forum:

"Just before you go delving back into the master cylinder, check that you have fitted the caliper assembly to the wheel/swing arm properly. The torque stay arm goes on the outside of the lug welded to the bottom of the swing-arm, with the head of the special bolt on the outside, and the nut on the wheel side. If you put the torqe stay arm on the inside of the lug, the whole assembly gets twisted, and the pads make permament "hard" contact with the disc.
With the axle nut loosened right off, the swing arm moves outwards away from the wheel hub, and the torque stay arm does align on the inside of the lug - don't be fooled by this.
This is a peculiarity of the underslung rear caliper on the 76/77 model."

So when I did that my binding on the outer pad stopped. So who has it right I wonder ??


Well, I can't say it's definitely wrong as you have it, but there's a photo in the '77 brochure that shows the Cleveloc nut (and washer) is clearly outside the lug with the bolt and stay inside.

http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Brochures/1970/77Bonnie-Brochure.pdf



Also:
Factory manual, Section F3


Certainly the only way it would be possible to move the stay to the outside of the lug on my own T140 would be if the rear wheel was well out of alignment, with the axle pulled too far back on the right side.

Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478690
02/26/13 4:19 pm
02/26/13 4:19 pm
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
fredguaz Offline OP
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fredguaz  Offline OP
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Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
I've got my bearings out. I want to make sure that the spacers are oriented correctly. One spacer has a ver short quarter inch shoulder. I have the short shoulder on the outside on the drive side. (Item 30) Is this correct? On the timing side, the spacer has approx 1 inch shoulder on the bearing side and a 1/2 inch shoulder on the outside. (this outside shoulder is also slightly larger diameter.) Is this all correct or do I have my spacers reversed? (LH vs. RH)
The longer shoulder on each spacer I believe goes through the bearing and into the inner sleeve (item 11).
I hope my ramble makes sense. It would take me years to figure out how to post a photo.


fredguaz
1977 Bonneville T140V
2005 BMW R1200GS
2007 Ducati Multistrada 1100s
1971 Honda CT-70 Ko
1972 Honda CT-70 K1
1977 Fiat 124 Spider (Current project)
1990 GMC S-15 Jimmy (Daily rider) (Sold)


"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!"
Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478695
02/26/13 4:50 pm
02/26/13 4:50 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,688
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
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Norfolk, UK


Sprocket side:

Disc side:

Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478697
02/26/13 5:02 pm
02/26/13 5:02 pm
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
fredguaz Offline OP
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fredguaz  Offline OP
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Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
LAB You are a gentleman and a scholar! It appears that I had my spacers reversed !! I am going to put the spacers on proper, put my brake stay where it belongs and report back here. Thank you, sir !!!!


fredguaz
1977 Bonneville T140V
2005 BMW R1200GS
2007 Ducati Multistrada 1100s
1971 Honda CT-70 Ko
1972 Honda CT-70 K1
1977 Fiat 124 Spider (Current project)
1990 GMC S-15 Jimmy (Daily rider) (Sold)


"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!"
Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478710
02/26/13 6:18 pm
02/26/13 6:18 pm
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
fredguaz Offline OP
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fredguaz  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 182
Lake Norman, NC
PROBLEM SOLVED !!!!! Thanks to the indispensable info on this forum !! I had my LH and RH spacers reversed. JubeePrince nailed it on his first post and LAB's photos proved an easy fix. I relocated the brake stay to inside the lug, reversed that shouldered bolt, put wheel on, tightened up and now have free rotation on back wheel. I bet that poster on triumphrat.net had his spacers reversed also, because that is how to get the pads from binding on the rotor in such a case.
Thank you all posters for the help.


fredguaz
1977 Bonneville T140V
2005 BMW R1200GS
2007 Ducati Multistrada 1100s
1971 Honda CT-70 Ko
1972 Honda CT-70 K1
1977 Fiat 124 Spider (Current project)
1990 GMC S-15 Jimmy (Daily rider) (Sold)


"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!"
Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478718
02/26/13 7:00 pm
02/26/13 7:00 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,409
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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JubeePrince  Offline

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Posts: 7,409
Back on the mainland!
fred -

Glad you got it sorted! clap

NEXT time, take photos before/during disassembly!

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: 77 T140V rear wheel issue [Re: fredguaz] #478720
02/26/13 7:30 pm
02/26/13 7:30 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,688
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
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bigt


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