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new engine #477561
02/18/13 9:10 pm
02/18/13 9:10 pm
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 208
netherlands
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lemans Offline OP
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netherlands
as the BSA Spitfire -Y is doing well, very well with its modified crank (1982) and EI (2012) topspeed and revs are steadily increasing.

the engine and framenumbers still match, I believe it is the last Spit with matching numbers, so I started out to have an extra engine prepared. when a rod drops in a othernumber engine it is a pity but not the end of the world. probably when a cheap frame turns up I will build a extra bike. but engine first.

engine specs:
needle bearing timingside
standard axial setup with shims
SRM oil pump and filter in the oil feed line
newby drivebelt and clutch
9:1 pistons, std bore
reuse the head, single carb
EI

some picture of the bush removal are in the link

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff390/lemans41/Raalte-20121230-00042_zpsfb735869.jpg

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff390/lemans41/IMG-20130218-00074_zpsc2e91418.jpg

anyone an idea how to remove the torrinton bearing from the transmission, which direction to push?

keep you posted
regards Anne

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Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #477600
02/19/13 1:13 am
02/19/13 1:13 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,644
Mississauga, Ontario.
A
Adam M. Offline
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A
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Mississauga, Ontario.
You can put some heat to the area and push it inside the tranny.

Re: new engine [Re: Adam M.] #477766
02/20/13 3:11 am
02/20/13 3:11 am
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,930
Ohio
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Rickman Offline
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Ohio
If I'm seeing things correctly, some peening has been done on the outside of the case.

So, I'd heat the case some, and as has been said, drive the bearing into the trans cavity area, and drive a new one back in place from inside the trans cavity as well.
Brett

Re: new engine [Re: Rickman] #479576
03/03/13 4:12 pm
03/03/13 4:12 pm
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 208
netherlands
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lemans Offline OP
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gents,

does anybody know the static and dynamic load data for a Hoffman RM11L bearing, drive side main roller.

regards A

Last edited by lemans; 03/03/13 4:16 pm.
Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #479657
03/04/13 1:01 am
03/04/13 1:01 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,444
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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Owego, NY, USA
To remove the high gear bearing, the case should be heated to 200 degrees. This takes longer than you might think, as the aluminum dissipates the heat so well. I went round and round with a propane torch, continually testing with a 200-degree temp stick. Finally, after at least 15 minutes, the temp stick melted, and you could just about push the bearing out with your fingers. Same thing on the way in, and cool the new bearing in the freezer. Fashion a drift that's the diameter of the outer race to tap it in.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #479689
03/04/13 3:21 am
03/04/13 3:21 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
M
Mr Mike Offline
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Cape Carteret, NC
lemans, If you are talking about the liitle torrington needle bearing, about an inch in diameter that the layshaft runs in, here's the deal:

First you get a 5/16ths (I think, maybe 3/8ths) carriage bolt about 2 inches long. For those not familiar with the term “carriage bolt”, it’s a bolt with a round head. Underneath the round head is a square shoulder. It is used for fastening wood. As you tighten up the nut the, force pulls the bolt head down into the wood so that the smooth round domed top is all that is sticking out. The square shoulder prevents the bolt from turning.

Anyway, grind the head of the bolt oval till you can stick it down in the hole where the needle bearing is seated. Keep grinding a little off at a time until you can stick it into the needle bearing at about 45 degrees. When you get it just right, you will be able to rotate it vertical in the cavity and the edge of the bolt head will rock behind the needle bearing. Now you just take a socket and slip it over the bolt. Put a washer on it and a nut and turn the nut down and presto…it pulls the needle bearing out of the case. It works so good it will scare you and you have made another special BSA tool for about 20 cents and a little effort.

Mr Mike

Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #479735
03/04/13 9:06 am
03/04/13 9:06 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,963
NL
G
Ger B Offline
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NL
Quote:
static and dynamic load data for a Hoffman RM11L bearing

RM11L sounds like a FAG code for a single row roller bearing in inch sizes.
Possibly SKF uses the same coding, but will have the same PV (load and speed) characteristics
as a similar sized bearing from another first class manufacturer.
I cannot reach my SKF-book today. Maybe somebody else is faster.


Ger B

Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #479775
03/04/13 1:47 pm
03/04/13 1:47 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,344
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
Hi Mr Mike--as a Brit living in US may I interpret for our UK friends----
US usage is "carriage bolt"
UK usage is "coach bolt"
HTH

Re: new engine [Re: Ger B] #479835
03/04/13 8:21 pm
03/04/13 8:21 pm
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 208
netherlands
L
lemans Offline OP
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netherlands
Originally Posted By: Ger
Quote:
static and dynamic load data for a Hoffman RM11L bearing

RM11L sounds like a FAG code for a single row roller bearing in inch sizes.
Possibly SKF uses the same coding, but will have the same PV (load and speed) characteristics
as a similar sized bearing from another first class manufacturer.
I cannot reach my SKF-book today. Maybe somebody else is faster.


it is indeed the single row drive side main roller bearing, in inches.

tried to look up a similar bearing in my SKF extract but it contained only different sized metric bearings.
when googling the Hoffman it resulted in the "ukrainian lady's dating site".

the reason for wanting to know the dynamic load data of this bearing is to pair/match the timing-side needle roller to this bearing. if the dynamic load data of the needleroller is approx 30~50% of the roller main it should be strong enough.

when I did the conversion in 1984 I forgot to write down the skf-type number.

reg A

Last edited by lemans; 03/04/13 8:21 pm.
Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #479925
03/05/13 6:50 am
03/05/13 6:50 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,963
NL
G
Ger B Offline
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NL
Anne,
The SKF type is NCF xyz, a cageless cylinder bearing with one collar in the outer ring.
Descriptions and calculations for the metric sizes are found on page 560 etc of this catalogue. Just choose the metric size which comes closest to the inch sizes of the RM11L.
I think that will be d = 30 mm D = 72 mm with dynamic laod 84 kN static load 86.5 kN

http://www.duisterstechniek.nl/front/userfiles/file/SKF_CILINDERLAGERS.pdf

Quote:
the "ukrainian lady's dating site"

In shipbuilding there is a caliper to check the tapered end of the propeller shaft which is supposed to match the tapered bore in the propeller hub.
I needed a picture of it for some documentation. The caliper is officially called a pot-caliper.
Try to find that on the WWW.
A walk to the machine shop, ask the chief storekeeper for the caliper, wait for a sr. assistent storekeeper to fetch the caliper,
wait for the jr. assistent storekeeper to clean the caliper, take a picture myself, thank the chief storekeeper,
the sr. assistent storekeeper and the jr. assistent storekeeper, and walk back to the office turned out to be faster.

For the non natives in Dutch: A pot in our lingo is not just for cooking but also a nasty word for lesbian.


Ger B

Re: new engine [Re: Ger B] #482451
03/22/13 4:18 pm
03/22/13 4:18 pm
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 208
netherlands
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lemans Offline OP
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right hand engine casing back from the machine shop.
machined a recess into the timing-side main to accept a SKF NKI 35/20 TN needle roller.

main oil supply will be plugged of with a 0,6 mm orifice to supply a minimum of oil.

regards Anne

http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/lemans41/media/P3220226Medium_zps507e9fd8.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/lemans41/media/P3220227Medium_zpsa2df2b69.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

Re: new engine [Re: ] #482511
03/22/13 10:26 pm
03/22/13 10:26 pm
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 208
netherlands
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lemans Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Allan Gill
Been looking through your pictures, some impressive work Anne!!! The ignition setup sounded spot on when on the Honda CB, sounds like it starts to advance earlier?


no, not really. checked the advance thoroughly with an oscilloscoop with memory-function. rpm and advance can be measured throughout the rev-range. spot on.

regards Anne

Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #482535
03/23/13 1:05 am
03/23/13 1:05 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,644
Mississauga, Ontario.
A
Adam M. Offline
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Mississauga, Ontario.
Originally Posted By: lemans
right hand engine casing back from the machine shop.
machined a recess into the timing-side main to accept a SKF NKI 35/20 TN needle roller.


Do you know how they based machining of the recess ?
Why did you picked up this particular bearing ?
I know - the size of it is very close to the bush, but this drawn cage as a base looks not too solid for my untrained eye smile.

Re: new engine [Re: ] #482571
03/23/13 10:27 am
03/23/13 10:27 am
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 208
netherlands
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lemans Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Allan Gill
nice, I should have said I was comparing to other EI's like boyer / pazon where it doesn't reach full advance as soon the points ignition does.


the advance-curve (in reality a timed delay period) is just a liniear (ax+b)function. for the BSA it is 5drg adv @ 1000 rpm and 32 drg adv @ 3200; in between it's a "straight line". because of the microprocessor changing this curve is dead easy, new curve, new hex-file; flash the file and run. adjustable to everybody's need, wishes and best knowledge.

to optimize the BSA I'm currently working on a pressure pick-up sensor in the spark-plug, this to time the ignition in such a way that max pressure will occur just (0,001 drg) after TDC. but all this might take a while

reg A

Re: new engine [Re: Adam M.] #482630
03/23/13 6:43 pm
03/23/13 6:43 pm
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lemans Offline OP
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netherlands
Originally Posted By: Adam M.

Do you know how they based machining of the recess ?
Why did you picked up this particular bearing ?
I know - the size of it is very close to the bush, but this drawn cage as a base looks not too solid for my untrained eye smile.


I used the outside face as reference surface. where the oilpump is mounted.

I had a topic some time ago with this reference surface question. the answer then was that the cylinder-base-surface was the reference surface. both cases bolted together, then the cylinder barrel mouth is machined, then all other surfaces and axes are machined. but that is rather unusable info when remachining a bearing. so I just used the outside surface.

NKI 35/20 TN has a dynamic load capacity of 30kN which is 3/8 of the roller bearing capacity; almost 37 %. I think that's adequate.

the cases are 23 mm across and the needle roller is 20 mm. so we left a 3 mm ridge to prevent the outer bearing cage to travel sideways away from the crank.

regards Anne


Last edited by lemans; 03/23/13 6:48 pm.
Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #483672
03/30/13 9:38 pm
03/30/13 9:38 pm
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 294
Southampton UK
P
Peter Gascoigne Offline
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Southampton UK
lemans,
Are you still using the timing side thrust washer and shims on the drive side?


1971 BSA A65 Lightning "Bitsa"
1966 BSA A65 "Beezuki" with GT550 two-stroke engine
1974 Triumph T150 830cc
1975 Suzuki GT550
1975 Laverda 1000 3C
1986 Yamaha SRX 600
Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #485402
04/11/13 7:37 pm
04/11/13 7:37 pm
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lemans Offline OP
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almost all required parts are in, even the needle bearing.

things to do are:
machining the outer timing side cover
machining/grinding of the crank
and some small work, camshaft bearings etc

the axial bearing has to be remade because the needle roller sits flush with the crankcase so there is no support for the axial bearing and a thicker bearing will have to be made. on the drive side the usual shims will be used.

not finished yet

[img:center]http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/lemans41/media/P4110228Medium_zps500bdb60.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1[/img] [img:center]http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/lemans41/media/P4110231Medium_zps239f0d4e.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0[/img]

Last edited by lemans; 04/11/13 8:03 pm.
Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #485419
04/11/13 9:16 pm
04/11/13 9:16 pm
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Posts: 836
derby england
wak Offline
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shouldnt there be a groove machined in the bearing housing to get the oil to the oprv then the crank feed ? cant see it in the photos


BSA lightning
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Re: new engine [Re: wak] #499767
07/30/13 7:47 pm
07/30/13 7:47 pm
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lemans Offline OP
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today I sent the crank away. It will be machined to accept the needle bearing. progress is being made.

as I'm rebuilding from a set of stripped crankcases, all the nuts and bolts are missing.

does some one have a list of all bolts & nuts required to build an engine, threads, pitch, size and req amount.
should save me a lot of time as some of them are not in the haynes manual,

regards Anne

Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #500026
08/01/13 10:08 am
08/01/13 10:08 am
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Last edited by lemans; 08/01/13 3:50 pm.
Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #503443
08/26/13 4:26 pm
08/26/13 4:26 pm
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lemans Offline OP
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I'm now preparing the outer timing side cover. has to be drilled and a suitable oil gallery/transfer welded to it.

for the correct alignment to the right hand side crankcase I'm searching for two dowels or retaining pins which align both segments. indicated with red arrows in the picture


Can't find them.
does someone have a part number or their diameter?. so I can have them made

regards a


Last edited by lemans; 08/26/13 4:26 pm.
Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #503564
08/27/13 7:04 pm
08/27/13 7:04 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 252
Duesseldorf/Germany
Phil in Germany Offline
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Hi Anne,

the parts-# for the dowels is 66-3074.

HTH and best regards

Phil


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'75 T 160
'84 Yamaha SR 500
Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #503891
08/30/13 3:54 am
08/30/13 3:54 am
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netherlands
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lemans Offline OP
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thanks, ordered parts today

http://www.degroot-bsa.nl/

Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #505723
09/11/13 3:29 pm
09/11/13 3:29 pm
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netherlands
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lemans Offline OP
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http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff390/lemans41/timingsidedowels_zpsa920d759.jpg

the dowels didn't fit, presumably I've a different engine
however as the holes are 1/4 inch, rollers of the inner clutch bearing do fit.

problem solved

regards A

Re: new engine [Re: lemans] #505817
09/12/13 7:35 am
09/12/13 7:35 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,332
Scotland
kommando Online content
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Buy a piece of 1/4" silver steel rod and make your own, hacksaw and a file, grinder will do it.

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