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T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! #476267
02/09/13 8:21 am
02/09/13 8:21 am
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 65
Brisbane Australia
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Blackie Offline OP
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What caused this? Has anyone seeing this before?

Stator & Alternator totally distroyed! Was running fine then this!



82 Bonnie
69 Bonnie project
Army Beeza
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Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476268
02/09/13 8:25 am
02/09/13 8:25 am
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Brisbane Australia
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Blackie Offline OP
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Another pic, sorry had to use the phone!



82 Bonnie
69 Bonnie project
Army Beeza
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476271
02/09/13 10:13 am
02/09/13 10:13 am
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Brisbane Australia
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Blackie Offline OP
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Will find camera and take some close ups, but basically rotor and alternator have been minced up, enough to stop the motor, motor turns over ok, now everything has been removes, at first I thought the motor had siezed, i felt it binding, then it freed, I took first exit of free way maybe another 1 klm, slowed for lights and then it stalled and seized. Never had this happen before! Will investigate inside more tomorrow,..


82 Bonnie
69 Bonnie project
Army Beeza
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476272
02/09/13 10:37 am
02/09/13 10:37 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,550
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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I've heard of them being damaged by being assembled without clearance all the way round.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476277
02/09/13 12:06 pm
02/09/13 12:06 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V-Rich Offline
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Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V.

Riding along, minding my speed at about 50 mph when I hear an awful crunching, pounding sound like a washing machine tumbling down a flight of stairs. The bike jerks a few times, then the exhaust belches out a great cloud of black/dark gray smoke and then the noises, smoke quit. The entire episode lasted maybe 4-5 seconds, if that.

The bike runs well after that. I keep checking aft for more smoke but see none. Like a radar station, I'm acutely listening for any more noises. Nothing.

I rode away from home a few more miles to the point I am now 25 miles away. I don't feel comfy with it. I turn it around and begin the return trip. A few miles down the road I felt a cut in the steady thump of the engine exhaust. I turned the headlight off immediately. If an officer stops me, bugger it, I'll simply explain I need to conserve the battery juice.

Long ride shortened, I get the bike home and discover it's not charging. Remove the primary and discover what looks like is an area where someone dropped a grenade down a manhole cover and ran. The entire rotor is gone. The largest piece I can find is about half an inch long. The rest is powder and oil.

We could find no answer as to why the rotor would separate. So we asked a longtime (1957) Triumph mechanic. His response was he'd never - ever - heard of it before but perhaps our magnets had come out and destroyed everything within reach.

The T140s have the three holes in the side of the engine case, inside the primary, that allow oil to be shared between the primary and the crankcase. Make sure, whatever repairs you make, you change the engine oil. And maybe a time or two.

Thinking back on it now, I'm not as certain it was dark smoke from the exhaust at the moment of separation. That cloud probably came from the breather pipe, which vents directly to atmosphere. I distinctly remember looking back to port side since the noise seemed to come from that side.

It was a huge cloud. If the bike were on a Fart Watchers program, it would have lost 50 pounds. "I lost 35 pounds with just one ...."

Well, you get the idea.

Hope this helps even if but a little. I know your experience having ridden through it myself.

Richard

Last edited by T140V-Rich; 02/09/13 12:12 pm.

1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476280
02/09/13 12:31 pm
02/09/13 12:31 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V-Rich Offline
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My scenario of experience naturally begs the query, "What did you do to fix it?" I think I was stuck in reminiscing to the point I'd forgotten to mention the most important part.

It's as Triton said. Clearance.

When reinstalling the two units, rotor and stator, use a feeler gauge as best you can (the magnets make for a bit of fun trying to get the gauge from adhering to the rotor) to position the rotor as best you can dead center all the way around inside the stator. Adjustment is by tapping where necessary one or more of the three bolts holding the stator in place. They won't need much of a tap, mind, as the clearance is very small.

What you're seeking is as Kipling wrote, "Never the twain shall meet."

Hope this helps.

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: T140V-Rich] #476283
02/09/13 1:01 pm
02/09/13 1:01 pm
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Posts: 65
Brisbane Australia
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Blackie Offline OP
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Brisbane Australia
Thats Fantastic Richard! Mine looked like a grenade had gone off as well sort of glad it has happened to someone else, but I could,nt believe my eyes when I opened the primary, it must of happened at 110klms/hr as on freeway, gave me no warning, as was out and about earlier in the day and all was fine!, i haven,t touched the primary in a couple of thousand klms, it was charging fine for what i know. i wonder how the clearence shifted? The filings were everywhere, checked sump plug, looks all ok, will dump the oil for sure and replace external oil filter, up for three hundred dollars now, plus, it,s dropped the trust factor down somewhat, mightbhave o give it the punt afterbthis episode, i have another T140 recent arrival of my brothers, maybe they get jealouus, i,ve had wierd shit like that happen before too!


82 Bonnie
69 Bonnie project
Army Beeza
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476285
02/09/13 1:23 pm
02/09/13 1:23 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V-Rich Offline
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A simple way to check to see if it's charging is to pull the earth wire at the battery. Above idle speed, say, 2k rpms. If it shuts off, it's not charging.

I've been told that sudden high revs (like a drag racer) creates flex in the crankshaft. As they've been described, the crankshafts are similar to a giant jumping rope. If the clearance isn't set proper, the rotor could be "flexed" right into the inside of the stator. This was opinion, and I have no proof of it, mind.

But if you can set the proper clearance, which really isn't too bad of a job, there might not be a need for any punting and you can maintain the jealous factor all the same. smile

Someone on the forums can tell you the proper clearance. All I did was find a middle ground where it was simply even all around. For further assurance, turn the motor over and watch for any high/lo spots at any point around the inside of the stator.

It may be difficult to tell now, but check the inside remnants of the old stator to see if you can determine any slight rub spots that may have occurred over time. The new ones that occurred at separation could possibly look fresher, more ugly and appear as gouges rather than rubs marks. Might give us an idea as to where it was making contact.

The bad part on my end was the bike wasn't mine. It was my dad's at the time! eek I got on the horn immediately and began scrounging spares for the repair!

Cheers

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: T140V-Rich] #476299
02/09/13 3:49 pm
02/09/13 3:49 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
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gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline
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regarding clearance..........i seem to recall a tip on this forum a while back about cutting a strip about an inch wide and long enough to wrap around the rotor from a plastic milk jug and using it as spacer/feeler guage and it wont stick to the magnets while you feel/adjust the space


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: raf940] #476304
02/09/13 4:13 pm
02/09/13 4:13 pm
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
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Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
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Vic. Australia
I cut 2 shims from a beer can,or soft drink can.Stack them together.
Test every point around the stator.You should be able to rotate the engine one full turn without the shims binding,at every point.

Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476332
02/09/13 6:02 pm
02/09/13 6:02 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,462
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Assuming the six coil stator, testing points would be at the 12, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 o'clock positions...

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: JubeePrince] #476345
02/09/13 8:34 pm
02/09/13 8:34 pm
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Blackie Offline OP
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Thanks for the advise, will definately be very careful on assembly, looks like British Spares in New Zealand have the stock in stock, at fair pricing, notice lately postal charges from USA have gone through the roof, so I have had to look closer to home for spares of late. I have a local shop that has parts, but, , I walk in backwards, and get reemed every time on price, always good to see what other stores are charging. I.watched a youtube of Lumad, i think his name was, he used a eight thos feeler gauge, I like Petes aluminium can shim suggestion, I wish I knew how this happened! Bit Worried about my Mains? side movement would cuase this? crank feels tight, the is some end play though, I'ts always been a tight, sound motor, in every aspect, a good one, i have done no work to it, bar carby and gearbox.. All will be no doubt be revealed!


82 Bonnie
69 Bonnie project
Army Beeza
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476357
02/09/13 10:10 pm
02/09/13 10:10 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,462
Back on the mainland!
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Originally Posted By: Buttix
I.watched a youtube of Lumad, i think his name was, he used a eight thos feeler gauge, I like Petes aluminium can shim suggestion, I wish I knew how this happened! Bit Worried about my Mains? side movement would cuase this? crank feels tight, the is some end play though,


Butt -

2 beer cans approximately equals .008"

Perhaps it's something as simple as the magnet coming loose from the center. I would expect radial crank movement could cause it too, but you could always throw a dial gauge on the end of the crank and check for run-out.

As for axial (end) play causing it, I'll let others offer their opinion on that....

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476431
02/10/13 4:18 pm
02/10/13 4:18 pm
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Carmel, CA
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I am in the process of rebuilding a 72 motor and I had a thought on this problem. The play in my drive side roller bearing was about .004". Is it possible that your bearing has just enough movement to allow the crank to move and allow the rotor to contact the stator? I could be way off on this, perhaps John can chime in on this.

Doc


Doc

Mostly Triumphs with a few BSA's a Norton, and two BMW's

Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Doc_dup1] #476459
02/10/13 8:50 pm
02/10/13 8:50 pm
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Brisbane Australia
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Blackie Offline OP
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Thanks Doc, not sure how i can check this, i did grab hold of the crank, doesn,t ppear to be any sideway movement, just end play. Onlything I can think of, is the primary cover has pulled the studs in a direction when tightening the two nuts?
G


82 Bonnie
69 Bonnie project
Army Beeza
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476467
02/10/13 10:54 pm
02/10/13 10:54 pm
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Posts: 1,526
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
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You never said what type of alternator system was used.

Apparently, some stators require special studs to provide running clearence.

The wiring leads look to be 120 * out from my bike setup?


1978 Bonneville T140V PX
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: JBMorris] #476490
02/11/13 9:22 am
02/11/13 9:22 am
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Brisbane Australia
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Blackie Offline OP
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It was a three phase high output apparently, not sure of the brand, cannot tell now anyhow! I hadn,t changed anything on this alternator, since gearbox rebuild many miles ago, it has happened out of the blue!




IMG code


82 Bonnie
69 Bonnie project
Army Beeza
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: Blackie] #476491
02/11/13 9:27 am
02/11/13 9:27 am
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Posts: 3,667
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
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dave jones Online content
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In the Roy Bacon motorcycle electrics book he says to file the pole pieces of the stator to get the clearance rather than bending the studs. This is what I did and it was fine.

I would agree that if the rotor touched the stator it would make the latter disintegrate. The rotor could have just fallen to pieces. I have a very ancient rotor in my 67 which may have lost some magnetism but it is solid so I am reluctant to change it. I think because I have points ignition the amount of power it produces isn't very important.

Dave

Last edited by dave jones; 02/11/13 9:29 am.
Re: T140 Alternator And Stator total disentagration! [Re: dave jones] #477171
02/16/13 10:48 am
02/16/13 10:48 am
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Blackie Offline OP
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Thanks Dave, bought the new rotor and stator, only 4 -6 thou clearance from 11.00 -1.00 o,clock on stator. Gave studs a tap, no change and didn,t like tapping the studs so going to file as per your advise, will buy a round or cresent file tomorrow and give it a touch up. Could not bear to have it happen again! What a mess! Greg.

Last edited by Buttix; 02/16/13 11:07 am.

82 Bonnie
69 Bonnie project
Army Beeza

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