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Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: Gary Szucs] #475979
02/06/13 7:12 pm
02/06/13 7:12 pm
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,072
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Offline

#irideslow
kurt fischer  Offline

#irideslow

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,072
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
Originally Posted By: Gary Szucs
Originally Posted By: Tridentman
Hi John---not sure what year your BSA is but---if it is an OIF model then you can also use the Charlies filter in the base of the oil tank. No extra connections with this filter.
BTW --hold onto your A56---I think it is the only one of that model!
HTH
I have a 71 A65 OIF. What is a Charlies filter and where are they available???


Some searching here should turn up threads on oil filters, including Charlies, and you can experience the debate about where to place the filter. Most folks like it in the return line, Charlies is essentially on the feed side, and that seems to be OK with others.


Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
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Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: kurt fischer] #475981
02/06/13 7:18 pm
02/06/13 7:18 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
G
Gary Szucs Offline
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Gary Szucs  Offline
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G

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Posts: 136
Michigan
Originally Posted By: kurt fischer
Originally Posted By: Gary Szucs
Originally Posted By: Tridentman
Hi John---not sure what year your BSA is but---if it is an OIF model then you can also use the Charlies filter in the base of the oil tank. No extra connections with this filter.
BTW --hold onto your A56---I think it is the only one of that model!
HTH
I have a 71 A65 OIF. What is a Charlies filter and where are they available???


Some searching here should turn up threads on oil filters, including Charlies, and you can experience the debate about where to place the filter. Most folks like it in the return line, Charlies is essentially on the feed side, and that seems to be OK with others.
Thanks. Enjoy watching your progress on your 71 OIF.

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #475992
02/06/13 8:49 pm
02/06/13 8:49 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,461
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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Gary--I think the Charlies filter is available from British Cycle Supply.
It was originated in Bristol, UK by a m/c shop called Charlies.
It essentially replaces the tea strainer at the bottom of the oil "tank" on the BSA/Triumph OIF models with a paper oil filter element. It is therefore on the supply side. The theoreticians tell you that a filter should not be placed on the feed side but----
engineering is all about things that work not just theories. Theories in engineering are just attempts to explain why things work---they do not tell you whether things work or not.
In reality in the twins the oil flow rate is so low compared with modern engine designs that the pressure differential across the filter is minimally low and less than the "head" of the oil in the tank.
I have a Charlies filter on my OIF Triumph T120RV with no problems.
FYI they are much more popular in UK than in US---mainly I guess because in the US people have listened to the so called experts about no filter in the supply line.
Rant over--sorry to bore you!

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: Tridentman] #476007
02/06/13 10:52 pm
02/06/13 10:52 pm
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,072
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Offline

#irideslow
kurt fischer  Offline

#irideslow

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,072
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
Triumph and BSA run different types of oil pumps from what I've heard. I wonder if that would be a consideration in locating an oil filter on a BSA.


Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: Tridentman] #476008
02/06/13 11:00 pm
02/06/13 11:00 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
G
Gary Szucs Offline
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Gary Szucs  Offline
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G

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
Originally Posted By: Tridentman
Gary--I think the Charlies filter is available from British Cycle Supply.
It was originated in Bristol, UK by a m/c shop called Charlies.
It essentially replaces the tea strainer at the bottom of the oil "tank" on the BSA/Triumph OIF models with a paper oil filter element. It is therefore on the supply side. The theoreticians tell you that a filter should not be placed on the feed side but----
engineering is all about things that work not just theories. Theories in engineering are just attempts to explain why things work---they do not tell you whether things work or not.
In reality in the twins the oil flow rate is so low compared with modern engine designs that the pressure differential across the filter is minimally low and less than the "head" of the oil in the tank.
I have a Charlies filter on my OIF Triumph T120RV with no problems.
FYI they are much more popular in UK than in US---mainly I guess because in the US people have listened to the so called experts about no filter in the supply line.
Rant over--sorry to bore you!
No rant, just information. Not bored in the least. Thanks.

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476022
02/07/13 1:01 am
02/07/13 1:01 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,461
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
Kurt--you are correct of course---the BSA twins use a double gear type pump--the Triumph twins use a double reciprocating plunger type pump.
However the oil flow rates in each are both very low by modern engine design standards---about 1/10 of new designs in the 1970s (bear in mind that the Triumph twin design goes back to about 1936 and the BSA twin design to about 1947).
This means that the pressure differential across the oil filter element is minute (pressure differential varies approximately as the square of flow rate) and will not affect the oil supply into the engine.
There are many thousands of these supply side filters operating in UK and there have been no reported problems as far as I know due to the positioning of the filter on the supply side.
In engineering if something works then it is good engineering.
And the position of the filter in the "tank" means that there are no more oil connections than in the standard non filtered configuration.
HTH

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476037
02/07/13 7:12 am
02/07/13 7:12 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,174
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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Gnashville
So, where can these 'Charlie' filters be bought? The first listing in a Google search is a post on this very forum, from 2005!


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: DavidP] #476053
02/07/13 1:22 pm
02/07/13 1:22 pm
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,072
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Offline

#irideslow
kurt fischer  Offline

#irideslow

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Posts: 3,072
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
David, I'm looking for a more recent discussion of these filters, probably within the past 6 months. As I recall, I decided against it for my '71 BSA since it meant cutting and grinding off and welding shut the oil pickup-feed tube inside the frame/tank, and the bike is already together. I might have gone for it when the frame was stripped earlier in 2012. The Charlies kit as I recall is made for '73 (?) onward where you don't have the internal pickup tube.

Last edited by kurt fischer; 02/07/13 4:24 pm.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476106
02/07/13 8:58 pm
02/07/13 8:58 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,461
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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Posts: 4,461
New Jersey USA
I thought that British Cycle Supply stocked the Charlies filter kit but ---not for the first time---I was wrong!
I have however done a little digging and they are stocked by Rabers in California under their part number T140FK @ $89.95. They have them in stock.
Kurts posting reminds me that a mod is needed on the 71/72 OIF frames but it is a bolt on mod for 73 on.
So for an OIF A65 then the mod is necessary. Not a major mod but as Kurt says---most conveniently done with a bare frame.
HTH

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476158
02/08/13 10:57 am
02/08/13 10:57 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,963
NL
G
Ger B Offline
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Ger B  Offline
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G

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,963
NL


My filter below the RH-side airbox cover.
This positions makes it more easily accesable than below the engine.

The filter element is the same as used on European Muscle car the Citroen 2CV. crazy


Ger B

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: Ger B] #476169
02/08/13 2:43 pm
02/08/13 2:43 pm
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,072
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Offline

#irideslow
kurt fischer  Offline

#irideslow

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,072
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
Very nice installation, Ger! Which adapter is that?

Back to Charlie's kit, I found this email that I saved from the UK supplier:

From: tmsspares@tiscali.co.uk
To: kurt
Subject: Re: Charlie's oil filter conversion
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:18:26 +0100

HI KURT,
RE THE CHARLIES TYPE FILTER SADLY THIS WILL NOT FIT YOUR 1971 BIKE AS THE OIL PICK-UP FEED PIPE GOES DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE FRAME AND THIS IS WHERE THE FILTER WILL BE.
THE 1973on TYPE HAD THE MAIN PICK-UP OFF THE ALLOY SUMP PLATE.

REGARDS,
MARTIN WHITE
http://www.tms-motorcycles.co.uk/


... and lunmad posted three YouTube segments on fitting an external oil filter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAr1aUiTfc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMsuL3SOB3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKviWwkQCvI

Last edited by kurt fischer; 02/08/13 2:51 pm.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476176
02/08/13 3:48 pm
02/08/13 3:48 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,963
NL
G
Ger B Offline
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Ger B  Offline
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G

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,963
NL
Quote:
Which adapter is that

I found this adapter in the local british parts shop.
Norton type it was called and it's very much like the
adapters in the pictures in the other posts.
The mounting plate is a home cut piece of stainless, bolted to the frame and the mudguard (fender) as shown below.



Ger B

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476253
02/09/13 2:41 am
02/09/13 2:41 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,174
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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Gnashville
Very nice Ger. bigt

This is how mine works using a remote filter adapter from Pegasus Racing. Not nearly so elegant as with your mounting plate.
I'm looking at a smaller adapter without the mounting flange. By using a smaller filter, I can relocate the thing between the frame tube and the fender.
It's not so easy to find space on a wet frame.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476273
02/09/13 10:41 am
02/09/13 10:41 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,963
NL
G
Ger B Offline
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Ger B  Offline
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NL
When you remove the filter element, David,
do you spoil oil, or has the oil run back to the cankcase
so the filter is near empty after stand still?

I remember from when we "designed" my filter assembly,
that there is space between the frame tube and the fender.
But we dropped that idea for maintenance reasons.
It seemed to us that removing the filter element would be difficult there.
There is not enough space to move the removal tool with the chain.
Plus we did not want to challenge Murphy's law on oil spills:
Any oil spill which might run over the rear tyre will run over the rear tyre".
bigt


Ger B

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: Ger B] #476300
02/09/13 3:49 pm
02/09/13 3:49 pm
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 249
Richmond, VA
tg4360 Offline
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Richmond, VA
I just filterized my T'bolt using a spin on remote adapter sold on eBay.

Somewhere here and elsewhere there are pictures of the set up and the good suggestion to use a 3' muffler clamp drilled to accept the adapter boss and clamped to the rear of the oil tank and in front of the rear wheel (OIF of course).

Were I do do it over again, I'd put it under the right side cover (I have aftermarket fiberglas ones to replace the hideous late air filter side covers of the OIF) but the ignition switch is currently residing there. I may move the switch and put the filter there eventually.

Spend the extra bucks for a stainless hose clamp as I'm sure the standard one will start rusting badly despite the mandatory coating of oil it's going to have (Brit bikes leak, right?)


'68 B25 Starfire (single)
'72 A65 Thunderbolt (twin (I'm sensing a pattern here..))
'78 XS750 Triple (Because I just can't get my hands on
a Rocket Three...)
'87 K100GS (four banger (Because NVT gave up too quick..)
Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476317
02/09/13 5:09 pm
02/09/13 5:09 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,368
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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I found that all the Pegasus mounts had very large ports that compounded the effort to connect the lines. They do offer the 3/4 - 16 threaded stubs for the spin on filter, if you are inclined to make your own mount base. The catalog has some neat stuff.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476379
02/10/13 2:21 am
02/10/13 2:21 am
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 568
the dungeon, in N.W. Ohio
Mitch C. Offline
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the dungeon, in N.W. Ohio
I have had a after market fender mount oil filter kit for a chevy s-10(got it off a buddy for ten bucks!), mounted on my lightning for years. The tricky part was to get the oil filter to fit in the open spot where the center stand is when it is up! I always use n.a.p.a. oil filters, since they are so much better than a fram. If you don't believe me cut one of each in half and see.

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: KC in S.B.] #476399
02/10/13 9:03 am
02/10/13 9:03 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,174
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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Gnashville
Originally Posted By: Ger
When you remove the filter element, David,
do you spoil oil, or has the oil run back to the cankcase
so the filter is near empty after stand still?
It seemed to us that removing the filter element would be difficult there.

bigt

I must remove the entire adapter to spin the filter off. It's mounted with the bolt which holds the fender in place. I used a slightly longer bolt with a nut behind the adapter and another nut to hold the adapter. That way I only need to remove the one nut, not the entire bolt. Once the nut is removed, there is enough slack in the oil lines to tip the filter down. With the filter's non-return flap, spillage is minimal.
Originally Posted By: KC in S.B.
I found that all the Pegasus mounts had very large ports that compounded the effort to connect the lines. They do offer the 3/4 - 16 threaded stubs for the spin on filter, if you are inclined to make your own mount base. The catalog has some neat stuff.

Mine came with barb fittings for 3/8" lines. The only problem I had was adapting the 5/16" line from the oil-return union to a 3/8" line. 3/8 worked fine for the return to the tank. I forget the number, but there is a Fram, and a K&N filter with 3/4 - 16 which is just small enough to fit.
The smaller one I might use is available with American and metric threads. I can probably find a motorcycle filter which will fit that and be easier to hide.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476410
02/10/13 11:33 am
02/10/13 11:33 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 221
Cape Town, South Africa
W
Whisper Offline
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Whisper  Offline
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W

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 221
Cape Town, South Africa
http://s1325.beta.photobucket.com/user/jessenja/library/

Here is a pic of an oil-filter for a OIF.

The filter is located in the bottom-end of the vertical part of
the oil-reservoir.
The actual filter sits in the pipe, the connections are outside, therefore the filter is in the return-line.
A very nice solution as far as location is concerned, the only draw-back is that you have to undo the four screws at the bottom when changing filters.
Note the cooling-fins.
Sorry forgot where I got it a couple of years ago, If my memory serves me correctly it was an Australian company.

Whisper

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476421
02/10/13 2:01 pm
02/10/13 2:01 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,186
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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S

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,186
Scotland
Hi John,

This is a filter and mounting made by contributor Dave Madigan ("DMadigan"), uses a commonly-available (in the US?) dirt-bike element.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476514
02/11/13 4:40 pm
02/11/13 4:40 pm
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 250
Jersey City NJ, USA
allflatblack Offline OP
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allflatblack  Offline OP
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Jersey City NJ, USA
Thanks Stuart, i'll look into it.

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476518
02/11/13 5:02 pm
02/11/13 5:02 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,825
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
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DMadigan  Offline
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D

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Posts: 3,825
ca, us
Oooh! An old picture of a prototype. Here is what it really looks like:

The filter is from the H*nda 450 four stroke dirt bike which should be available worldwide. I am working on another top with both pipes facing the side.

Re: Oil Filter on an A56 [Re: allflatblack] #476654
02/12/13 4:57 pm
02/12/13 4:57 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,368
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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Posts: 4,368
Santa Barbara, California
here is my spin-on filter adapter base, which can be used where the Norton type does not fit easily. Not nearly as elegant as D.Madigan's, but something I could do and it works. The base is just a disk of aluminum, and has the 3/4-16 nipple for a spin-on in the center. ( from Pegasus)



The back side, attached to a plate that fits a Triumph unit.



And as actually on the TR6C. I was happy it clears the center stand, and with normal mufflers and pass footrest, not obvious as a modified bike!



Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
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