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#472096 - 01/13/13 8:58 am Novice GP CARB Level round float question...  
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I'm mounting a GP on my street track goldie,
at the moment I have 7 1/4" extended intake mounted. Not sure that will be used in the end but it looks great.

Next thing is to mount hoses and to level the round float compared to the carb itself. Anyone who has a idea how to measure the level?

Thanks in advance.


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#472105 - 01/13/13 10:18 am Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Morgan, the float level of the GP carb shoud be set as follows :
Scribe a horizontal line 1-5/16 inch (33.5mm) from the top of the float chamber , excluding the chamber top.
Fit the float chamber to its mounting point in such a way that the line on the float chamber is at the same level as the BOTTOM of the small circle that is engraved at the plug bolt on the body of your carburator.
Note that this method applies to the round float chamber only. (I don't know about the other types of float chamber)

Alternatively, it is possible to temporarily fit a "T" piece in the fuel line between the float chamber and the carb.
Connect a transparant piece of fuel line to the T, in such a way that this points upwards.
Now you can visually check the fuel level in the float chamber.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Peter R; 01/13/13 2:43 pm.

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#472138 - 01/13/13 2:06 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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The visual method is the most obvious.

The 'Matchbox' float type has a cast-in level mark on the side, though I'd be checking the actual achieved level with the clear hose to be sure..

Last edited by Kerry W; 01/13/13 2:06 pm.

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#472151 - 01/13/13 3:29 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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I have not yet understood your explanation yet, i need to re read a couple times. Ist there maybe a chance that someone has a image of this?


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#472163 - 01/13/13 4:14 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Originally Posted By: Morgan
Ist there maybe a chance that someone has a image of this?
Is this what you are looking for?

#472171 - 01/13/13 5:04 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Magnetoman]  
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It's a good idea to have the bike running when setting the float height ( 2 people needed ).
The vibration of the engine running can alter the static setting thus causing flooding.
Set the static height with the clear tube then run the bike and adjust as needed .
Some times the top of the flote chamber can leak fuel from the chamber top from the fuel sloshing about, to stop this put some hylomar non setting sealent on the joint faces.if you make gasket for this you have to re-set the float height.
Also make sure the float chamber is vertical and tie back your fuel pipes this will stop the float chamber vibrating so much.
Hope this is a help.

#472241 - 01/13/13 11:23 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Thanks guys i get it now, I found a pic I took on Dick Manns bike at VMD Ohio. see pic. I also received a PDF from Phil at AMAL in UK.
It explains it with the round float. I will take your advice and later on a couple months i'll get back and let you know how it went. Guess an extra hose with a t-pipe and a see thru hose will work fine.
Thanks again folks bigt

/Morgan


Attached Files 2009_07260169.JPG
#472382 - 01/14/13 7:31 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Strange, I performed first the correct set up by AMAL with the round float and then connected a transparant hose from a T-pipe.

It turned out i had to lower the round float more that the actual level 1" 5/16 below the top of the float chamber , excluding the chamber top.

AMAL supplied me with a new stay up float and a Light Weight Aluminium Needle Valve with Viton Tip.

I noticed that I the float was leaking and so was the bottom of the carb and I had to stop working with it I wonder what caused the carb to leak as i had tighten it good. The float I wonder if it was because i moved it up and down but it looked like it came from the chamber top not sure though. might need to pull the bike out a bit to take photos.
There wo leaking from the hose connections.

Last edited by Morgan; 01/14/13 7:33 pm.

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#472391 - 01/14/13 8:15 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Morgan, The figure of 1-5/16 inch was taken from the original paperwork in the 1950-60's.
The fuel used in those days was different from the stuff we buy today, and the floats as supplied by Burlen fuel systems may be different from the floats that were originally used by AMAL in the 1950's.
The original floats were made of brass, are the modern stayup floats made of plastic ?
Anyway the weight of the float, as well as the specific gravity of the fuel may be different from what was used in the old days.

I mean to say that the figure of 1 5/16 inch can be used as a starting point only, and fine tuning must be done with the T-piece and the flex hose, as described in my post above, and the drawing as shown in Magnetoman,s post.
( that adapter as shown on MM's post looks handy, but unfortunately no longer available as far as I know)

The fact that your float chamber leaked from the top means either a leaking float, or a float needlle not doing its job correctly.


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#472453 - 01/15/13 3:06 am Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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It's not neccesary to use a 'tee' in the fuel line from the float to check fuel level with a GP carb. Merely fit a length of clear fuel line to the float bowl outlet and hold it up against the 'ring' mark noting the level on the GP carb. Works for me.

Speaki8ng of float level issues ... a few years ago GStarRon squared me away on a vexing tuning issue with my recently fitted AMAL MKII 'smooth bore' carby.
Increasing main jet size wouldn't give me a corresponding change in plug color or performance. What da hey?

Ron pointed out the float was hitting the side of the float bowl, not allowing the float valve to fully open and the fuel level was too low for proper engine operation.
'The fix' was to grind away material inside the bowl that was fouling the float.

This issue was made all the worse by my previously lowering the float level too far so I readjusted for a higher level. Investigation showed this was also an issue and was corrected in the same model carb on the GS dirt tracker. The need to futzt with the level initally was because of the angle of the carb mounting on the GS engines, especially the DTR causing flooding.

Ron tells me the alky float bowl with the higher flow rate float valve is available. I've not tried one.

"It's So Easy to tune and go slower"! aarrgh

And speaking of float levels in Concentric carbs, AMAL, Mik, etc. ... find a unused float bowl bottom cap, drill and fit a connection for a small diameter (vent hose) plastic line to hold up against the carb body. But then you all knew that ....

Last edited by dave - NV; 01/15/13 3:12 am.

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#472711 - 01/16/13 5:40 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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USED a TEE Tried to get the float level correct but find it a slighly difficult where I stood to be sure so I decided to go for what look best.
Then replaced hoses and took the bike outdoors in the snow,

Kicked a few times, it ignited but kicked back, then I tickled it and it started.
Lots of oil in the return feed so I warmed it up and and then tested to twist pretty swift and the engine answered like is has not done before.
It answered extremely fast and good. I noticed a bit rich smoke sometimes when letting the throttle down and nothing new there.

Rode a little in the snow and then struggling to stop (it was pretty slik surface) the bike died as i could not control the throttle completely.
Then tried to start it and it was stone dead. Well i did not do anything else. I'm not sure the level is 100% right.

Now a few hours later I can't start it, when I tickle it eventually runs over and the carb start to drip at the bottom.

Can anyone of you explain what happen if level is under the circle mark or what happen when it's to high?

Just need to get your feedback on both.

PS, I did cleaned up the spark plug

PPS, this engine when I remove the spark plug I find it oily and when the engine spits back like when it stalled it spit back some black oil too some times anyway. It has done that ever since I started to ride it two seasons back.


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#472717 - 01/16/13 6:23 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Morgan,
I THINK that if the float level is too high, should the petcock be left on, fuel may flow through and on down into the valve throat, flooding the bike? Without even running?
If this happens, maybe your oil has become thin, just how thick is the oily residue you were speaking of?

Not much vacuum needed to get fuel into the engine when running, maybe draws more fuel than normally needed??? Too easy fuel flow?

This smoke, grey or black?

Uhmm, try a new spark plug, you might have flooded the one in it... Maybe oil fouled...
Brett

#472730 - 01/16/13 7:51 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Brett a quicky i'm out before i came, black rich smoke no grey at all..Shouldn't the gas drain by the pilot before it floods the engine?
Sparkplug has always been thick oily strange. However i don't think that affect this now. Gotta go..cheers


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#472731 - 01/16/13 7:53 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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what happen if the gas level is to low?below the circle?

i had very little gas in the tank when setting the level..


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#472732 - 01/16/13 7:56 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Rickman]  
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Hi Morgan,Like I said in my last post you need the bike running and the fuel pipes secured to set the float height properly. if the GP carb you are fitting is the same as the one in your other post the knurled knob on the right hand side needs to be turned in or out when the engine is warm and reving at a constant 3000rpm,{ after you have set the float height}. Turn the knob each way until you get the highest rmp, then the fuel/air ratio is set.
Did you use your choke when starting the bike?
Did the bike back fire ( not necessarily a loud bang just a chuff ) if so this would account for the black oily residue in the intake ( just unburnt mixture..

#472736 - 01/16/13 8:12 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: GS DAVE]  
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If the fuel level is to low it will be a pig to start and you will need to tickle it all the time.
If it is to high it will run rich and can flood, when the height is correct the fuel is level with the top edge of the needle jet, the bottom of the ring on the air jet plug represents the top of the air jet.

#473434 - 01/21/13 4:39 am Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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I had a lot of problems with my GP float until I found that the brass rod up through the centre of the float chamber was slightly bent. This was causing the needle to just touch the side of the seat making the needle stick.

#475595 - 02/03/13 11:33 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Well I had to remove the float and change the float bracket as it came a bit close to the gas/petrol tap. Then I needed to reset the float height with a clear hose and boy i find it difficult with my eyes. OK i made my mind up its ok.

Next step was to change the exhaust pipe, I had one previous installed that was as it should be 1 3/4 in the port and then increases to 1 7/8 but it decreased in the end to 1 3/4 again. Britech had found me an original pipe that is 1 3/4 in the port and then increases to 1 7/8 all the way to the end. So I adapted my fake megga (muffled with reverse cone) from 1 3/4 in the hole to take the 1 7/8 pipe. The muffler material inside was burnt so I added new steel wool the kind you use to clean pots and pans in the kitchen.

Then I managed to start with some trouble but it did not run well it died, tried several times to kick, cleaned the wet spark plug several times and eventually changed plug. Then it started but it spitted back flames irregularly thru the carb so I lossened the float and tried different heights with poor result. It was difficult to keep alive so
i kept it around 3000-4000 revs. Then I saw it came shooting stars so to speak out of the muffler it was hot burning steel wool that apparently was lose. I put it on the stand and saw it was all red hot inside the muffler the muffler went yellow on the outside so I fetched some water and pored it inside to cool it off quicker.

After that unscrewed the muffler opened it and it was a mess inside. removed all burned steel wool and assembled it with only the pipe with all the holes that goes in the muffler. After it was cooled down I managed to start it again took it for a 600 feet ride and it was not entilery happy.

After that I have checked the ingition timing and it is between 15/32- 1/2".
I adjusted it with the cable to more exactly 15/32 =11.9mm

When I start it I do have some trouble to over come that it dies within a few seconds as it.

Haven't got deeper into it. Oh yeas the temp out side was just above freezing degrees. plus 2 celsius thats about 35 F.

If anyone grip anything above let me know what your thougts are.

Good night see your comments later today...


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#475601 - 02/04/13 1:02 am Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Originally Posted By: Morgan
After that I have checked the ingition timing and it is between 15/32- 1/2".
I adjusted it with the cable to more exactly 15/32 =11.9mm
15/32" = 39-deg. is the spec. from the manual, but modern fuels burn faster than the old ones so this very likely is too much advance for whatever fuel you are using. Also, you didn't mention how you arrived at the jetting you're using, but if you took the sizes from someone whose bike is operating at temperature fit for human habitation (e.g. 22oC), they would be too lean for 0oC because the air is significantly denser. Too much advance + too lean mixture = hot exhaust pipe and poor running.

My handy Mikuni Pocket Tuner says that if the correct main jet at 72oF were a, say, 300, it needs to be increased to a 315 at 32oF, i.e. a 5% increase.

#475622 - 02/04/13 3:45 am Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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The thory, as Magnetoman describes, is correct, in terms of desity altitude/lean/etc, though in practical tems, a 2 size difference in the main jet, and a corresponding slight richness on the needle, is unlikely to make a bike that runs well at 22 dgerees become a pig at freezing.

Also, the slight timing error, between what the bikes had on fuel s of the day (39degrees) and what is probably (in moist places) better on the garbage fuels we get these days, is also not likely to be significant for the running you describe - no load, and no real heat generated.

Did you run the bike previously with another carb? If so, go back to that and see that it's all OK (ignition, etc). On the face of it though, it does sound like a fuel level/delivery issue.

Was the ignition previously OK? I've seen a lot of 'carb problems' that were really the ignition...


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#475627 - 02/04/13 5:36 am Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Kerry W]  
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Originally Posted By: Kerry W
in practical tems, a 2 size difference in the main jet, and a corresponding slight richness on the needle, is unlikely to make a bike that runs well at 22 dgerees become a pig at freezing.
But, I don't think he's ever had it running well at 22oC on a GP. If he's taking settings from someone else that work on another bike, he'd be lucky to be within a couple of jet sizes anyway as a starting pokint.

Originally Posted By: Kerry W
Also, the slight timing error, between what the bikes had on fuel s of the day (39degrees)...
A couple of degrees too advanced exacerbates whatever else is an issue.

Originally Posted By: Kerry W
Was the ignition previously OK? I've seen a lot of 'carb problems' that were really the ignition...
I'm not sure how a problem with the ignition could result in the overheating symptoms under the conditions he describes (i.e. significant excess heat). But, I am a firm believer in "90% of carburetion problems are ignition." I've experienced it too many times myself, and seen it with other bikes. As the French say (or should say), chercherz la ignition. Still, it sounds like the mixture is too lean.

#475683 - 02/04/13 7:14 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Morgan .. Hearing your symptoms makes me believe you have a problem other than the carb float level. My 'best guess' would be the magneto has a problem. The hot exhaust system is a classic symtom of retarded timing.

It would seem the discussion of jetting is immaterial at this point. You are not dealing with the 'finer points' of carb tuning at this time. Merely set up the GP 'by the book' as we've all done with reasonable success as a starting point tuning.

There are two common changes to a GP carb when used with a megaphone exhaust. The throttle slide is a leaner #5, #6, or #7 vs the typical #4 in a muffled road bike. The leaner GP.6 needle is used vs the road bike's richer GP needle. Leaner carb settings are also required with a 'tuned' short straight pipe. These changes are due to the problems with 'Exhaust Reversion', at lower RPM causing double/triple fuel loading with long duration cams. BTW this reversion is Not to be confused with the sonic reflected pulses and is easily minimized with exhaust pipe modifications.

Your 1 7/8" exhaust header pipe isn't as good as the smaller 1 3/4" pipe for a road bike. You mention the pipe being reduced at the mega end which actually wasn't done as the BSA factory racig mega fit the larger pipe.

You are aware of the 'loose wire' requirement for full advance of the magneto? Use a 'half way' setting of the bar control for starting, not full retarded as some attempt with a corresponding weaker spark.

A 'tight wire' is required for normal running of a GP carb 'enrichener', with the plunger pulled to the top of the air correction slot?

Many/most GS racers don't have bar ignition or enrichener controls. The spring in the mag keeps the ignition fully advanced and the enrichener 'plunger' is removed from the carb and the cable bolt hole is plugged.

GStarRon told me a story about a gent he was helping who had a trouble with his Goldie. Come to find a previous owner had filled the carb enrichener slot with epoxy! This of course had eliminated the 'air correction' to the carb mixture. aarrgh.

Many starting issues are caused by old gas the 'aromics' have evaporated away. I've dealt with this problem several times over the years. Old gas to the lawn mower can and fresh fuel in the tank works wonders.

I sincerly hope I haven't caused confusion with too much yadda yadda.

Last edited by dave - NV; 02/04/13 8:15 pm.

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#475692 - 02/04/13 9:14 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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I agree with Dave that you may have other issue. This reminds me a bit about watching my father push his bike home. I was in grade school at the time, thought it was funny then, think its hilarious now. This was all before cell phones, FYI.

After he and the bike got a considerable distance away from the house, the motor would start to miss and die right out. 30 minutes of kicking a Gold Star (10:1) over to receive an occasional pop and bang. Then the eventual push home.

Turned out to be the mag. Once heat soaked, the internal spark couldn’t jump the ever widening break, causing the mag to find its own way to ground.

Thank goodness he had the high bars on it, and not clip-ons. He pushed it for miles. Called it the BSA workout.

#475807 - 02/05/13 3:07 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
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Thanks everyone for your feedback. I read everything and inhale all your experience.. bigt

Wrote a long detailed update but lost it..gah..

Seems to work better again.
Settings are road throttle needle in middle third grove, jet 109, slide 4
Anyway, fitted an enricher now was plugged before.

ignition is still just a little more than 15/32 or pretty near. not less.
muffler is 1 7/8 in the hole formed as a 17 " megga but has a perforated pipe inside, no damping materiaL So there is a slight damping effect.

Not 100% certain of float level but the bike starts now and it responds witout spit backs or flames at the rear goes sort of normal and it wants me to lift up the enricher a minute or so after the start at least on lower revs. I took it for a spin on first gear and opened the thottle to just above 3/4 and there rear wheel was spinning all right in the cold snow wet road. I did it a couple times.

Before I started last time i cleaned the plug.

I think i wish to put some kind of damping material inside the muffler, nou much but to lower the sound just a little.
Any ideas on the material?

I thing I just have to wait until spring arrives to start riding it and learn how the GP works with the bike.

Now I'm thinking of buying a motorcycle lift and swap the two gearboxes i have on my racebike and tourer. race bike has a STD and and tourer has a SCT, SCT sort of lacks first gear and it's a pain when riding with my wife as a pillion, that don'r bother me on the race bike as it's lighter and with only me on it.


cheers

Last edited by Morgan; 02/05/13 3:11 pm.

BSAing you
Morgan Johansson
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#475814 - 02/05/13 3:44 pm Re: Novice GP CARB Level round float question... [Re: Morgan aka Admin]  
Joined: Feb 2003
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Rickman Online content
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Rickman  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,884
Ohio
Morgan,
If you have a dirt bike store somewhere near you, instead of the steel wool at the grocery store, you might go by the dirt bike store, and ask for some muffler packing, might be for a 2-smoke, might be for a 4-stroke.

This stuff may still burn out, as the steel wool does, but it's designed for the high temp in a muffler, as the steel wool is not.

They may also not make it any more?
I've had a bit of experience with this stuff, and it works! Mellows out a crackling 2-smoke just fine! No more ear splitting, at least, until it burnt out again...
Brett

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