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Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: mozez] #443233
07/05/12 2:32 am
07/05/12 2:32 am
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 658
San Rafael, Ca.
BikeVice Offline
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San Rafael, Ca.

[Linked Image]

Your spring has an unnatural amount of bow, are you sure your lower steering crown is oriented properly? Could it be 180 off? In this picture, you've assembled your forks with the lower link pivot to the rear of the steering head:

[Linked Image]

But you've installed them with the pivot to the front of the steering head:


[Linked Image]

Eric



1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
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Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: BikeVice] #443237
07/05/12 2:52 am
07/05/12 2:52 am
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,133
Ottawa, Canada
gREgg-K Offline

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Ottawa, Canada
Eric has made an excellent observation. Some Enfield girders were made the same way as these, so that the steering stem could be reversed through the headstock, making for less trail for side car work.

With the steering stem installed so that the lower links are behind the steering axis, you end up with a geometry more suitable for solo work.

The Enfield spring perch bolts onto the lower cross bridge of the girder, so that it can be moved "backward" to remove misalignment/distortion of the spring.

.. Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: mozez] #443241
07/05/12 3:49 am
07/05/12 3:49 am
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 209
New Zealand
T
Trevor Stapp Offline
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Posts: 209
New Zealand
Yes spring is under a lot of unatural pre tension.
I would be encouraged to strip them down and start again.
Reverse your links.
Make sure you have a nice 'interferance' tightness between your spindles and bushes.
Do everything up to just off tight.
You should be able to move the knurled washers with your fingers.
Should have mentioned my forks are fitted to a Triumph 49/50 5T/6T frame.
I have 19" front & rear. Rear is rigid hub.
Well set up and maintained girders are a pleasure to ride and makes me wonder sometimes why the motorcycling world went to hydraulic front forks.

Cheers,
Trev


66T100SR Cafe racer
59 T20 Cub
1938 - 53 5T Bitsa project, now a roller
Duplex frame under the bench
Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: Trevor Stapp] #443246
07/05/12 4:35 am
07/05/12 4:35 am
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 658
San Rafael, Ca.
BikeVice Offline
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San Rafael, Ca.
Originally Posted by Trevor Stapp

Reverse your links.


The links seem to be installed correctly, here's another picture of what appear to be the same forks on an early 1930's Triumph:

[Linked Image]

It looks like the upper links are shorter than the lower links and they definitely incorporate the friction dampers.


Originally Posted by Trevor Stapp

Well set up and maintained girders are a pleasure to ride and makes me wonder sometimes why the motorcycling world went to hydraulic front forks.


WWII ended and the companies making aircraft landing gear had to find another market for their technology?

Eric



1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: mozez] #443390
07/06/12 1:13 am
07/06/12 1:13 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 35
Vancouver B.C
M
mozez Offline OP
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Vancouver B.C
@ Trevor Stapp - Thanks for the input. As mentioned - the links with dampeners on this particular girder were fitted to the top yolk. Unique to this model.
Every Triumph 6/1 photo that I have dug up has the same girder setup. Ill do some hunting for the extract from Road Bike that you mentioned. - Thanks.
Any chance you could measure the length of your girder? From top / forward spindle to axle centre. Id like to see what difference there is in fork length...

Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: mozez] #443392
07/06/12 1:26 am
07/06/12 1:26 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 35
Vancouver B.C
M
mozez Offline OP
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Vancouver B.C
Gregg and Eric- THIS IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM!!!!!
Makes me what to slap my forehead! I cannot believe that for as much as Ive stared at this girder. Ive made such an obvious oversight!

I reviewed an illustration from an extract of the Triumph 6/1 service manual and it indicates where the grease nipples should be.
CLEARLY I have the lower yolk reversed!!!

[Linked Image][/url]

[Linked Image][/url]

This arrangement would obviously set the lower links further back and therefore correct the steering geometry and also the the angle of the load on the spring!

I cant thank you guys enough. Ill switch the lower yolk around and take the old girl around the block this weekend. Im sure its going to be a whole different kind of ride!

Again - Thanks! - Report back soon!

Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: mozez] #443393
07/06/12 1:27 am
07/06/12 1:27 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 35
Vancouver B.C
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mozez Offline OP
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Posts: 35
Vancouver B.C
beerchug

Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: mozez] #443396
07/06/12 1:57 am
07/06/12 1:57 am
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 209
New Zealand
T
Trevor Stapp Offline
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Posts: 209
New Zealand
Mozez,

No probs on input, sorry about the bum steer.
Center op front spindle to axel center 680mm (2'-3/4")
Also a very quick measure shows I have about 30mm of positive trail.

Try dropping Rod Stockdale a note at Tiger 100 in the UK.
He is a bit of a pre war Triumph expert. Has a good website and may be able to help you.

http://www.tiger100.co.uk/framesforks.html

Back at work next week so if you like I will scan and email you the 6 pages.
just PM me your email.

Cheers,
Trev


66T100SR Cafe racer
59 T20 Cub
1938 - 53 5T Bitsa project, now a roller
Duplex frame under the bench
Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: Trevor Stapp] #443403
07/06/12 3:47 am
07/06/12 3:47 am
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,133
Ottawa, Canada
gREgg-K Offline

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Ottawa, Canada
Originally Posted by Trevor Stapp
Mozez,

... sorry about the bum steer.


Yep, that's exactly the problem Mozez had.

Glad you have it nailed now!

... Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: mozez] #443886
07/09/12 7:41 pm
07/09/12 7:41 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 35
Vancouver B.C
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mozez Offline OP
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Vancouver B.C
Happy to report that the girder handles 1000 times better than it did.

Its still a different kind of ride to any front end ive ever experienced but Im confident in its handling now. Swapping around the lower yolk has straightened up the spring and changed the rake / trail drastically!

Ill post up some photos indicating how the change affected trail this week.

I might still swap out the sprung hub to see how that affects overall handling, but for now, Im happy to just go for a ride!

Turns out the problem is NOT bad engineering from the 30's - its bad Mechanics in the 2000's... Thanks again for all the input and ideas.

Back soon with photos.

Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: mozez] #445920
07/24/12 6:26 am
07/24/12 6:26 am
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,027
Nor. California
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Deadstiffcatt Offline
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Nor. California
I've been following this thread with interest, although I have no experience with running or repairing a girder front end. I do have the following two pages that my cat somehow photographed from a circa 1951 or so manual, downloaded into the computer, then loaded at photobucket without any of my knowledge.....

Parts diagram for prewar Triumph, second photo is part numbers to correspond. I hope this is of use for the Triumph girder guys!


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: mozez] #446414
07/27/12 7:54 pm
07/27/12 7:54 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 35
Vancouver B.C
M
mozez Offline OP
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Vancouver B.C
Deadstiffcatt - please thank your cat from me. Thanks for the pics!

Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: mozez] #464497
11/22/12 9:17 pm
11/22/12 9:17 pm
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 38
Southern Oregon
K
kodiakbill Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 38
Southern Oregon
WOW, sure glad I read this post. I ran out to the shop to look at my 1934 Model 2/1 and sure enough, I have the crown reversed!
I should have this project finished and on the road by Spring and am glad to have avoided above noted handling issues.
Thanks for everyone's input.
I'm using a standard 18" Triumph rear wheel and a B50T 20 incher on the front.
Kodiak Bill

Re: Triumph (Val Page) Girder Help [Re: kodiakbill] #464702
11/24/12 4:27 am
11/24/12 4:27 am
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 38
Southern Oregon
K
kodiakbill Offline
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Posts: 38
Southern Oregon
Well, I spent all day in the shop taking girder apart and turning stem around 180 degrees. BTW, my girder looks very similar to the one on Mozez's bike. I'm wondering what else I've gotten bass-ackwards.


Wayne's Triumph Motorcycles has many detailed photos of a restored 1935 Model 2/1. Forks are similar but differ in details of links and spindles.
http://triumphmotorcycles.typepad.com/photos/1935_triumph_model_21/index.html

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