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Re: A good deal gone bad [Re: gcuz] #463343
11/15/12 12:07 am
11/15/12 12:07 am
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,799
Comox BC Canada
G
Gordo in Comox Offline
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Gordo in Comox  Offline
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G

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,799
Comox BC Canada
Interesting thread and a fair amount of money to part with without having asked all the right questions.

Several dozen close up photos of all the parts and serial numbers would have been my starting point before any serious negotiations.

Years ago before most folks had email we saw an ad in one of the trader mags for a BB34 Clipper being parted out in California. We were after the frame but when we phoned to enquire it turned out there was a complete bike basketcase.

Without internet we mailed the vendor a disposable film camera and he took photos of all the parts and mailed the camera back.
Brother Wilf processed the film and based on the photos we could see that some parts did not really match a Clipper but there was enough there to make a deal. The vendor had done a nice job with the camera and we could see virtually ever part in the deal, right down to the nuts and bolts.

As well when I drove down to get it, the photos allowed me to get all that he had offered over the phone.

Gordo


Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
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Re: A good deal gone bad [Re: gcuz] #463347
11/15/12 12:42 am
11/15/12 12:42 am
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 505
Maine
Sisyphus Offline
BritBike Forum member
Sisyphus  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 505
Maine
FWIW, I bought my T140 pretty much sight unseen. The clutch was worn out, it didn't have a proper paint job, there were things missing (that I knew about). It did come with a title. The numbers were not matching, so when I went to register it in my state, since it's over 25 y.o., I didn't need a title, just a bill of sale. I registered it w/ the engine number, since the engine is worth more than the frame. Just my 2p.


There is no such thing as a sympathetic vibration.
Re: A good deal gone bad [Re: gcuz] #463358
11/15/12 2:31 am
11/15/12 2:31 am
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
W
Wilfred Offline
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Wilfred  Offline
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W

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
Further to what Gordo said above, I bought my T100 by sending a disposable camera to the seller many miles away in Edmonton Alberta with instructions re how to use it. ( I had originally seen quite a few brit bikes for sale in a buy/sell that had been wrapped around a camera that was sent from Edmonton to be repaired and sent more than one seller a camera to send back to me ).Even with a $10 disposable camera's plastic lens, I was able to verify the serial number on the engine and see that pretty much all the bits where there. Sent the cheque to a friend of Gordo's who was in Edmonton at the time and he picked up the bike, making sure it was as in the photos. Meanwhile I had managed to do a search on it by phone and then Gordo and I went up to get it in my wife's 79 Volvo wagon.....Of course, there were surprises when I got it home and opened it up but when isn't there...... Anyway, enlisting the help of a friend or at least someone who knows the subject and who you can trust goes a long way.

Perhaps it's good that we are old as we've almost fully developed our healthy cynicism ( I got my black belt in cynicism when I turned 70 ) and as long as we can REMEMBER the times we got diddled we're liable to go to a lot of trouble to avoid getting caught again.....there has to be SOMETHING good about old age.....Cheers, Wilf

Last edited by Wilfred; 11/15/12 2:34 am.

"It's about the ride..."
Re: A good deal gone bad [Re: Kevin (NZ).] #463359
11/15/12 2:49 am
11/15/12 2:49 am
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,962
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

Life member
Lannis  Offline

Life member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,962
Central Virginia
Originally Posted By: Kevin (NZ).


I am surprised you still feel like 'outing' the seller. If he answered all your questions truthfully and provided pics then what else would you expect him to do ?




Kevin - To answer your question, I would have expected a forum member to respond to the buyer's concerns with something besides ...

"After many attempts, we got in touch with the seller (who happens to be a forum member). He tells us tough s**t and if we'd flown our lazy asses across the country, we could have inspected the bikes. He offers no money back, partial or otherwise, and tells us off."

Does that sound reasonable?

I can promise any forum members around here that you wouldn't hear that from me if you bought something from me and weren't satisfied with it .... !

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: A good deal gone bad [Re: Lannis] #463365
11/15/12 5:04 am
11/15/12 5:04 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,799
Christchurch, NZ
Kevin (NZ). Offline
BritBike Forum member
Kevin (NZ).  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,799
Christchurch, NZ
Originally Posted By: Lannis

Kevin - To answer your question, I would have expected a forum member to respond to the buyer's concerns with something besides ...

Does that sound reasonable?



I think we are back to hearing just one side of the story.

The guys that end up buying dog aircraft complain as you would expect but they they bicker with the engineers when it comes to subsequent Inspection time. Obviously the attitudes change after the event as well.

I am a sucker for online auction sites as well but I think we should all be aware of the pitfalls and factor that into the purchase agreement.

I don't know if Graham has been the victim of a malicious seller or not, - the trouble is that without asking the appropriate questions beforehand you may be in for a bitter dispute afterwards.


Why, Y, Dash Y..



Re: A good deal gone bad [Re: Wilfred] #463478
11/16/12 12:55 am
11/16/12 12:55 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 71
Twickenham, UK
R
rohart Offline
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rohart  Offline
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R

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 71
Twickenham, UK
Jon - it's no different in the UK. Don't set your opinion from two UKers who aren't very interested in matching numbers.

What I call my '61 Bonnie I purchased in 1973 as a Bonnie engine in a single downtube Thunderbird frame. I changed it soon after to a duplex Thunderbird frame. If someone offered me the original matching single downtube Bonnie frame I'd snap it up, but I wouldn't ride it - I'd stuff it away in the attic.

What you ride, and what parts you have that stay together, are two different questions to my mind. I've got several mods on my bike. I wouldn't ride the original front brake to safe my life - pun intended - but the original wheel is safe out in the shed.

Last edited by rohart; 11/16/12 12:56 am.

Richard
Re: A good deal gone bad [Re: gcuz] #463525
11/16/12 10:37 am
11/16/12 10:37 am
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 836
derby england
wak Offline
BritBike Forum member
wak  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 836
derby england
Dont keep it in the attic too long it wont be worth a hoot when the petrol runs out !!!!! take a look at the "worlds finest motorcycle collection" everyone of thems a fake after the fire ,iv seen so many restamp jobs you wouldnt believe why do you think there are more Hurricans etc going about than were made ?im sure their owners sleep soundly at night thinking the numbers match . lol


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Re: A good deal gone bad [Re: gcuz] #463567
11/16/12 4:51 pm
11/16/12 4:51 pm
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 78
Sylvan Lake, MI
G
gcuz Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
gcuz  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
G

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 78
Sylvan Lake, MI
Wow - I am really impressed and grateful for these responses. I'm convinced of a couple of things...

- My Dad and I did not do our due diligence, especially when it comes to verifying matching numbers, which was important to us. We should have asked many more questions, and asked for many more photos.

- We won't buy another bike without inspecting it personally, as photos don't always accurately represent the bike. For instance, photos did not illustrate that the ammeter is not attached via bent tabs, or connected in any way, but instead sitting loose in the headlamp. Photos could not illustrate that the side cover was not bolted or attached to the bike, but instead delicately balanced on the side of the bike for the photo. Photos could not illustrate that there are bearings missing in the forks, which cause them to sway and move to the point of being useless.

- Sure, if we'd asked for additional photos, those likely would have shown the hole blown in the case which had been welded shut at some point. It would be nice to think something like that would be purposely disclosed, but it was our duty to ask for the right photos that would expose something like that. We didn't.

Again, I could out the seller, but to what point? He'll see this, and if he cares to retort, he's welcome to it. I'd guess he'll say he had a conversation with my dad, explained in great detail every flaw, explained exactly what the serial numbers are and that they didn't match, explained that the bikes were comprised of parts from varying years, took the best photos he possibly could, and that he offered our money back and apologized.

Reading through these posts again...you guys are right. We simply didn't do our due diligence (and to Kevin's point) and using this forum as resource after the fact is pointless. We were taken - or at least that's our perception - and it's our own damn fault. We didn't use the common sense that has served us well on many other occasions. So be it. We're going to make lemonade, and a damn fine desert sled, and move on.

Again, I'm very grateful for your frank and honest comments (even when they sting) - it's what makes this board great.

Re: A good deal gone bad [Re: gcuz] #463592
11/16/12 7:42 pm
11/16/12 7:42 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,176
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Offline
BritBike Forum member
Shane in Oz  Offline
BritBike Forum member
S

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,176
Sydney, Oz
It's easy enough to get caught, even when the seller is absolutely above board.

I bought a 1968 Firebird project from a forum member for a pretty good price. When it arrived, it was a restamped 1970. I put that down to inexperience on both our parts. The seller isn't really a BSA guy so didn't spot the problem, and I didn't get him to send me close-up shots of the numbers.
I'm a bit more careful about getting more details now...


As it happens, I've since bought another bike off him (with a good bit more checking) which I'm very happy with. The "1968 Firebird" would have been a good buy as well if it hadn't been for the shipping cost.

Re: A good deal gone bad [Re: ] #463641
11/17/12 1:20 am
11/17/12 1:20 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,359
Magnolia, TX
htown Offline
BritBike Forum member
htown  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,359
Magnolia, TX
Don't know if P11's have the stamped vin plate held on by rivets or not. On Commando's matching numbers is kind of a crap shoot.
New VIN plates are readily available and easy to swap. My 72 has a new plate that I stamped but I have the original in the lock box with the title.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
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