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#463148 - 11/13/12 10:08 pm Anti Drain Valve  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 88
bbc Offline
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bbc  Offline
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ohio
My Norton Sumps pretty good after a long sit.
Could anyone steer me in the right direction. as to make of a quality valve?
Thank You In Advance

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#463152 - 11/13/12 10:34 pm Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: bbc]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 692
bill50cal Online content
bill50cal  Online Content


Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 692
orlando fla/ shady valley Tn
IMHO the spring loaded anti sump valve is a disaster waiting to happen. one thing I have learned is you DO NOT put a restriction in an oil pick up line. the best way I have seen it done so far is here.

http://www.accessnorton.com/goof-proof-anti-drain-valve-ironjohns-t14556.html


windy
72 combat
switchbackcreek.com
#463212 - 11/14/12 4:50 am Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: bbc]  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 193
Tobin Peever Offline
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Tobin Peever  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 193
Pullman, Washington, USA
I'm in the anti anti-drain valve camp as well. Just learn to drain the sump prior to a ride or ride the bike every few days. The failure rate of these any of these valves is too high for me to risk my engine on IMO.


47 Norton ES2
61 Norton Dominator 88
67 Triumph TR6C
68 Moto Guzzi V700
74 Norton Commando
08 Moto Guzzi 1200 Sport
#463229 - 11/14/12 9:49 am Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: bbc]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,889
kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,889
Scotland
I've used one for 20 years and no failure yet but I do check for good oil return before setting off to ensure oil is flowing.

#463246 - 11/14/12 12:32 pm Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: kommando]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 692
bill50cal Online content
bill50cal  Online Content


Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 692
orlando fla/ shady valley Tn
the failure scenario's that I know of was, a run up to temperature - a short stop - a restart than engine failure. it appears that it looses prime when the oil is hot and thin so I hope that 1 you check for oil return on EVERY start up or 2 you have an oil pressure gauge. as I have stated it is a piece of crap engineering if you know ANYTHING about hydraulics.

Originally Posted By: kommando
I've used one for 20 years and no failure yet but I do check for good oil return before setting off to ensure oil is flowing.


windy
72 combat
switchbackcreek.com
#463255 - 11/14/12 1:09 pm Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: bbc]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted By: bbc
My Norton Sumps pretty good after a long sit.
Could anyone steer me in the right direction. as to make of a quality valve?

Apart from fixing the cause, as opposed just fixing a symptom, have you considered just draining the oil from the tank before it works its way into the sump?

When my Triumph triples did that, I had some tank drain plugs made with spigots long enough to take a hose clip on length of standard oil hose. I cut the hose long enough to reach into a standard oil can placed beside the bike; when the hose is stowed, it's secured to the frame tube behind the oil tank with a couple of releaseable, reuseable cable ties; just in case they ever came loose on the move, I also hose-clipped an old bolt in the end of the hose.

If I didn't plan to use a bike for more than about a week, I just undid the cable ties and the hose clip securing the bolt, pulled out the bolt, put the hose end into the oil can and left it beside the bike. When I wanted to use the bike, I reinserted the bolt, secured its hose clip, cable-tied the hose to the frame, poured the oil from the can into the tank and started up.

Even once the standard anti-drain valves were fixed, I left the spigotted drain plugs and hoses in place because draining the oil was so much easier than the previous three-handed (potential) disaster.

Hth.

Regards,

#463261 - 11/14/12 1:31 pm Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: bbc]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 609
MexicoMike Offline
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MexicoMike  Offline
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Mexico City, Mexico
Nobody knew/cared anything about "wet sumping" as a "problem" when these bikes were being produced and ridden. The fact that the oil slowly drained into the sump was perfectly normal. I had a '71 Commando back in the day. I sold it in '78. Never heard of wet sumping. I currently have an 850 that sometimes sits for up to 6 months without running. Starts from a 6 month layup on 3rd-4th kick. Starts on first kick if it has been run in the past few weeks. Have never drained the sump prior to starting. The oil in the sump simply gets pumped back into the tank - as designed.

IMO these valves, whatever type they may be, are a solution for which there is no problem.

#463263 - 11/14/12 2:55 pm Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: MexicoMike]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 692
bill50cal Online content
bill50cal  Online Content


Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 692
orlando fla/ shady valley Tn
mike
Back in " the day " we rode them on a lot more regular basis and usually daily so wet sumping was not an issue.
As to it not being a NON issue you are mostly correct as it will not cause major engine damage unless it has sumped to the point that the tank is drained completely and has to run with no oil pressure till it has returned enough oil to the tank to pick it back up. the other trouble it can cause is to force the crank seal out and start putting engine oil into the primary drive.

Originally Posted By: MexicoMike
Nobody knew/cared anything about "wet sumping" as a "problem" when these bikes were being produced and ridden.

I currently have an 850 that sometimes sits for up to 6 months without running. Starts from a 6 month layup on 3rd-4th kick.

I Have never drained the sump prior to starting. The oil in the sump simply gets pumped back into the tank - as designed.

IMO these valves, whatever type they may be, are a solution for which there is no problem.


windy
72 combat
switchbackcreek.com
#463282 - 11/14/12 4:37 pm Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: MexicoMike]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Scotland
Hi Mike,

I agree with Bill. "Back in the day" isn't relevant today. Most current owners don't have to ride the bike every day, or even every weekend; some owners simply can't ride the bike for several months. Possibly your 850 doesn't wet-sump; like the triples, I suspect the maker probably built in an anti-drain valve, but the maker also didn't bother to check that it was working properly. frown It's certainly possible to make a triple's anti-drain valve work properly, but I personally still wouldn't start any of my expensive-to-rebuild dry-sump engines without a check as basic as for oil in the tank.

That said, I'm equally dubious about asking something like a motorcycle engine oil pump to suck a valve some distance away off its seat; frown I believe there are cheaper and more reliable ways of treating the symptom, if you can't treat the cause.

Hth.

Regards,

#463296 - 11/14/12 7:08 pm Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: Stuart]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,469
L.A.B. Online content
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L.A.B.  Online Content
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Posts: 3,469
Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted By: Stuart
like the triples, I suspect the maker probably built in an anti-drain valve, but the maker also didn't bother to check that it was working properly.


Actually, "the maker" (Norton) didn't, at least, not until the 850 Mk3 model when a spring-loaded plunger type anti-drain valve was fitted on the outlet side of the oil pump. The valve helps slow the rate of drainage as it stops the oil taking the usual route to the sump via the crankshaft (if the plunger doesn't jam in the open position, that is) however it doesn't prevent it draining out along the oil pump shaft.


#463299 - 11/14/12 7:25 pm Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: L.A.B.]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3
Jim Bush Offline
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Jim Bush  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3
Vancouver, BC
No one has mentioned there is a link between where the crankshaft is in rotation compared to the oil hole in the con-rods. Since the oil can only find its way out of the crank oilways, it makes sense to store the bike with the crank at top dead centre - that way the oil holes in the crank are 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock and the oil hole in the conrod are on top at 12 o'clock. In this position, the oil has to travel up thru the big end shell to the oil hole in the con-rod, as well as seep out around the big end shells. If the shells are in excellent condition the seeping will be minimal.

If the crank is at bottom of the stroke, then the oil has more of a head from the oil tank and will wet sump sooner - as there is more static pressure in the system. The difference from top of stroke to bottom is 89mm (3 1/2" inches) should account for something.

I have just bought one of the new plastic AD valves with the clear window so you can see the oil flow. Not installed yet so no idea if it is good or not. Both of my MKIII's wet sumped.


Jim Bush
Vancouver, BC
52 "Model 7"
62 "650SS"
68 20M3 Fastback
69 "R"
69 "S"
#463323 - 11/14/12 9:49 pm Re: Anti Drain Valve [Re: Jim Bush]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 692
bill50cal Online content
bill50cal  Online Content


Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 692
orlando fla/ shady valley Tn
what you are saying sounds good on paper BUT as LAB has pointed out there is more than one place for it to wet sump through, namely the oil pump and to a lesser extent the crank seal int he timing cover if it is bad.

Originally Posted By: Jim Bush
No one has mentioned there is a link between where the crankshaft is in rotation compared to the oil hole in the con-rods. Since the oil can only find its way out of the crank oilways, it makes sense to store the bike with the crank at top dead centre


If you MUST run this BODGE than IMHO an oil pressure gauge is a MUST HAVE

Originally Posted By: Jim Bush

I have just bought one of the new plastic AD valves with the clear window so you can see the oil flow. Not installed yet so no idea if it is good or not. Both of my MKIII's wet sumped.


windy
72 combat
switchbackcreek.com

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