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#418270 - 02/12/12 7:55 pm Re: Case cleaning ***** [Re: Adam M.]  
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TR6Ray Online content
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Adam, when I was into trucking, I worked for a guy who loved big, red, Peterbilt 379's with aluminum wheels and trim. Many hours were spent during any available downtime in keeping the aluminum polished. If too much time lapsed between polishing sessions, he would sometimes use chemical "brightener" on the aluminum. The brand he used was ZEP. It was an acidic concentrate that had to be diluted in water. It would remove the oxidation, but had to be followed by polishing or the aluminum would go white. I'm wondering if that would be a good first step on your blackened cases. At least it would not involve any blasting. Also, Caswell sells something called Aluminator, but I have not personally tried it. I have used other products from them that I found to be very good.
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/albrite.html

Oops! I guess we were posting at the same time. Sounds like you worked it out. Good news!

Last edited by TR6Ray; 02/12/12 7:58 pm.

'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
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#419133 - 02/17/12 5:58 am Sludge Trap [Re: TR6Ray]  
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I fooled around a bit with the crankshaft this evening. I ground the tip of an old bit to sort of match the radius in the rather deep slot in the dreaded sludge trap plug. I figured since I'm the first one in here since the guy at Meriden, the plug may come out fairly easily if the tool fit well enough. Just for reference, the plug was recessed .029 below the surface.

[Linked Image]

I used a small burr tool in my Dremel to cut away the punch lock, being careful to remove as little metal as necessary. Then, with no rattle gun or any other hoopla, the plug came right out. Here's mud in yer eye . . .

[Linked Image]

Depending on whether you are an optimist or a pessimist, you could say the tube was either half full or half empty. Actually, it looked a little more than half full. The old girl was ready to take a good dump after sitting around for 41 years . . .

[Linked Image]

There was also no drama involved with removing the flywheel bolt, which made me happy. I tried it gently without any heat, and it came right out.

[Linked Image]

To quote John Healy's article, "Without taking some precautions removing this bolt, it is easy to break it. If this happens, removing the piece that remains in the flywheel can be a confounded nuisance and a job best suited for an expert." Well said!

Then I made up the puller tool as described in John's article, except I used an old carriage bolt from the junk bin. I cut the head off, and drilled and tapped the shank to accept a 1/4-20 grub screw. Then I found that all I had was a 5/16-18 screw, so I drilled it bigger and tapped it again. This is about the biggest that will fit the hole in the sludge tube, but it worked O.K., and the tube came on out . . .

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Here's a view of the inside end of the sludge trap tube --

[Linked Image]

I felt fortunate that this worked out well. From what I have read, people often have a lot of trouble with this job. Speaking of fortunate, the factory size spec for the crankshaft big end journals is 1.6235/1.6240. I measured mine at 1.6237 (D.S.), and 1.6238 (T.S.). The finish on the ground surface looks very good, and there is a nice .100 corner radius . . .
[Linked Image]

The main bearing journals are also on size, and the flywheel is tight. Looks like all I need to do is give the oil passages a good cleaning, but there's no machining required.

I got my T.S. case cleaned up, and with the help of a friend who has a valve spring compressor, the valves are out of the head. So, I'm plodding along. I'm almost to the point where there are no more dirty parts to clean up -- Hooray for that!


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#419152 - 02/17/12 9:35 am Re: Sludge Trap [Re: TR6Ray]  
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R Moulding Online content
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Obviously a better quality of grub screw. I like those radius gauges, gonna find me some of them.

So are you planning on a remote spin on filter?

#419201 - 02/17/12 5:54 pm Re: Sludge Trap [Re: R Moulding]  
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Originally Posted by Redmoggy

Obviously a better quality of grub screw. I like those radius gauges, gonna find me some of them.

So are you planning on a remote spin on filter?

Grub screw: When I couldn't find a grub screw, I was going to wait till the next day when the stores opened. Then I vaguely remembered setting back an extra one for the pulley on my table saw, about 15 yrs ago. Amazingly it was still where I remembered putting it. I guess not all the brain cells are dead yet. I found the trickiest part of the job was getting the grub screw at the proper height to catch the hole in the sludge trap tube without catching the edge of the bolt hole.

Filter: Yes, definitely. I like the Glenn "Phrog" Davidson design posted by RF Whatley on the GABMA page and plan to make something along those lines. I was amazed to see the amount of crap in that sludge tube, but it proves the effectiveness of the design -- it was sure doing its job! A filter in the return line could only be a bonus.

Radius gage: That is an old Starrett gage that I got as a machinist apprentice back in the mid 70's. I still remember that my instructor had the patience of a saint. It was no easy job to get me going properly with an external grinder, but I finally got the hang of it. Getting out an old tool and using it is like meeting up with an old friend.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#420264 - 02/23/12 1:47 am More clean & dirty parts [Re: TR6Ray]  
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I spent the afternoon cleaning the last of the dirty parts, though I still have some aluminum to polish. Here are a few before and after pics:

The con rods had a lot of baked on oil near the small ends. --

[Linked Image]

Cleaned and lightly polished -

[Linked Image]

The pistons were pretty nasty, with a lot of carbon build-up. The compression rings in the DS piston were well and truly stuck. I got the lower one out in two pieces, but the top one was more difficult. I finally got all but one piece, about 3/4 inch long. Had to put the piston in the oven and heat it up to get that last bit to come out with a seal pick.

I should probably buy new pistons, but these are the original Lo-Ex ones from Triumph (pre-Hepolite). I thought I'd see if they would clean up. The ring grooves look O.K., but I'll give them a better going over to be sure. --

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I scrubbed these up with a bit of Arm & Hammer Baking Soda, under pressure of course. --

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

While I had the oven up to temp, I heated up my cases to 250 deg F and got all the bearings out. Still had to lightly drift them, but they came out pretty easily. I had been kind of worried about this job and had kept putting it off.

Then I decided to clean the cylinder head some more. Since I got the valves out, I could clean around the guides better. They had a lot of carbon build-up. I may replace the guides, and figured I had better get the carbon off the outside if possible to prevent damaging the head when they are removed.

Exhaust valves were the worst, of course. --

[Linked Image]

After a shot of baking soda --

[Linked Image]

Inlet valve guides were not as bad, but still had a lot of crud. --

[Linked Image]

They cleaned up pretty nicely. --

[Linked Image]

Since everything seemed to be going well, I thought I would tackle another job I had been putting off for fear of screwing it up . . . removing the patent plate. I was encouraged when Redmoggy said he couldn't believe how easy it was to change the one on his TR6 project. I also got some advice from Hawaiian Tiger. They were right, it came right off with no trauma. Thanks, guys! --

[Linked Image]

I could almost use the old plate, but will probably get a new one. It'll be a lot easier to put it on, since I don't have any broken drive screws to extract.

That's it for now.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#427980 - 04/04/12 10:01 pm Update -- a little progress [Re: TR6Ray]  
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Long time - no updates, so here's what I've been up to:

I got very hung up on what to do with the crankshaft main bearings. I latched onto a thread on the Triumph forum and extended it out considerably till I got a better grasp on the subject. Thanks to all who chimed in there! I wound up getting a roller bearing to replace the DS ball bearing, a new ball bearing for the TS, and and a later style crank pinion, adding a clamping washer. That's all detailed in this thread '64 Crank Location

{Edited 8/5/2017} Unfortunately, that thread full of valuable information got lost in an accidental but massive thread deletion. Too bad -- it's gone and could not be retrieved.

I also got new bearings for the gearbox mainshaft and new layshaft needle bearings. The old ones were probably O.K., but hey, it's already apart so I might as well do it now. One layshaft thrust washer was like new, but the other was worn (kind of strangely more on one edge than on the other), so I got a new one. I filed the old one down till it was flat and was .075 inch thick. I'll use it as a stop spacer when I drive in the new needle bearings.

[Linked Image]

I also decided to get a later style (1968) high gear to eliminate the problem with the seal wearing a groove on the bush O.D.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The extended nose on the high gear will let the seal run on steel instead of bronze. Of course this meant I needed the later style sprocket cover plate, with the larger seal bore.

[Linked Image]

I had already bought a new bush, and almost pressed it into the old high gear. Then I decided that now was the right time to fix it properly. When I bought the used high gear from a '68, it had a bush in it that was on the high limit for wear. My new bush had no oil groove in it, and had about .002 inch size variation end to end. I tried to buy another one from Morrie's Place (where I got the gear), but Ed was temporarily out of stock on them. I went ahead and had him press in the one I had, hoping it would close up enough. It was close, but not right.

So I wound up getting another new bush from Klempf's. It has the oil grooves and is the proper size. I'll press that one in at my buddy's shop and hopefully put that issue to rest.

I also bought some parts based on stuff I had read on the forum, my own measurement and judgement, and some things just because it's all opened up. A few of these things are:

  • CovSeal rocker box gaskets from Coventry Spares
  • Pioneer-Weston seals for the timing cover (the ones that are supposed to be most resistant to inverting and dumping oil pressure
  • New valve springs
  • New, larger dia valves (advised by Ed Zender)
  • New oil pump balls and springs
  • Later style OPRV cap without the indicator button (I plan to fit a gage, at least temporarily. I still have the old setup in case I change my mind.)
  • New primary chain (I think the old one was O.K., but decided not to take a chance on it destroying my cases and/or primary cover)
  • Cush drive rubbers (again, I think the old ones were O.K., but I'm in there so will change 'em out)
  • New gudgeon clips (I plan to re-use the old pins and pistons)


I also went ahead and bought a set of ring compressors to add to the toolbox.

[Linked Image]

I've got my aluminum cleaned up as much as I plan to. It isn't perfect, but better than it was. My new motto is, "Call it patina and let it go". At least I had no cracks or dents to deal with (eh Redmoggy?) I really dislike sanding. Here are some before/after pics:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The picture makes them look a little better than they really are. So maybe I'll just always try to keep the bike in shadow when it's out.

I finally finished bead blasting all my engine/tranny hardware and got it cad plated. Another jigsaw puzzle. My helper was all set to sort it out for me:

[Linked Image]

Then he told me he couldn't remember what went into which bag:

[Linked Image]
This batch came to $75.00, and was done in one day -- Thanks Jose at J&D Plating in Waukegan IL! He's been plating for 35 years and does a heck of a job.

Since it was a small batch, I threw in my tappet block driver and got it plated. It was bare steel when I bought it.

[Linked Image]

Which reminds me that I also had Ed Zender turn some o-ring grooves in my tappet guide blocks while I was at Morrie's Place. He did it while I waited and supplied the seals.

[Linked Image]

The other hangup has been the cylinder block. I thought it would be quick and easy to blast and paint it. I had a tough time, as described in this Triumph Forum thread Cylinder Paint Recommendations

I am planning to use VHT Paint, and go with all four steps: Prep, Prime, Paint, Clear. The UPS guy just dropped off the primer today, so I can get on with it. Hope this stuff works.

[Linked Image]

The only other thing is that I picked up the stuff to add an oil filter in the return line. I got a Norton style filter base and a couple Emgo filters to fit it. The chunk of 6061 aluminum came from McMaster Carr -- delivered in less than 24 hours (very prompt, but who knows how long it'll sit around here before I make something of it).

[Linked Image]

I was going to make it like the one on the GABMA page, but there is a problem. My bike, like a lot of other Triumphs, has a lug on the bottom of the frame that will not allow mounting it as shown in the drawing. I do think that I can fit it in there, but will have to modify the design of the mount. I have a friend with a small machine shop and will use his mill and boring machine to work this out.

I still need to paint the cylinder block, get the bores honed, and get the head work done. Other than that, I think everything is purchased, cleaned, bagged, tagged, plated, polished, you name it. I'm almost ready to start putting this beasty together. However, I'm going to stop for a while. I need to put a tire on the Harley, clean the carbs on the little Honda, stain the patio deck, and some other honey-do's. Hope to be back at it with the TR6 before I forget what I'm doing.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#428045 - 04/05/12 9:11 am Re: Update -- a little progress [Re: TR6Ray]  
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R Moulding Online content
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I would be more than happy with those covers Ray. If you have access to a mop on a machine and some compounds you could probably get that perfect finish. Mine are still miles away from being almost nice!

I have my oil filter mounted with an exaust clamp type mount below the swinging arm, the lug at the bottom of the frame does not interfer with the filter. However i currently can not fit a centre stand and have had to space the exaust strap downwards to clear. You can convert the old filter thread to use a Japanese type tiny oil fiter to remedy this. I have this on my list of things to do.

Also, i have read alot about the small valve heads producing more power. I found the opposite with my TR6. Much more pep after the bigger valves went in.

Keep it up Ray it's looking really good.

#428065 - 04/05/12 1:28 pm Re: Update -- a little progress [Re: R Moulding]  
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Thanks, Rod,

I think there is room for the filter I have, as well as the center stand, if I shift the filter toward the timing side. Those Emgo filters I bought only cost $7.00 per. Not sure as to their quality, micron rating, or bypass capability, but I'm told many others are running them successfully. If I get a bracket made to fit, I'll post up the details.

Good to know about the larger valves. I was only going to replace one exhaust valve, but got convinced the larger ones were better.

When I first got this bike, the engine was stuck. Turns out the reason was that one or more valves were corroded in place in the guides. I soaked the pistons with PB Blaster for quite a while and kept tapping the kicker. I finally gave it a good shot and broke it loose. Turns out that one exhaust valve opened and stayed that way -- kissed a piston and bent the head of the valve slightly. Oh well, live and learn.

I'm looking forward to the rest of your build. I read through it again yesterday. Lots of good pics and good step-by-step explanations, making it a good reference. Best to you.

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#459550 - 10/20/12 1:08 am Project update [Re: TR6Ray]  
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I see I last updated this project thread in April, 2012. I'll catch it up in pieces, first up being the cylinder head.

Earlier in this thread, I said that I never intended to venture into the engine and gearbox myself. A long-time local builder was going to do the work and let me watch/learn/get in his way. He had health issues and was reluctant to start my project until he got stabilized. I appreciated his honesty and judgement in that regard, and finally started the work myself. Sadly, he passed away two weeks ago. Though I did not know him well, he was always willing to share his knowledge when I called him or went to visit. He was a true craftsman, who built many a British bike in his time. Godspeed, Jack!

I should mention another guy who I've known for close to 50 years now. To keep him anonymous, I'll just call him TG. He has this amazing little shed that only measures about eleven feet by eleven (plus a small lean-to addition out back), but he makes use of every last square inch. In here he has a good sized air compressor, an air-over-hydraulic motorcycle lift mounted in the floor, a good steel work bench, some stools to sit on, a fridge (bottled water only), a lathe, a bead blast cabinet that vents outdoors, a welder, a hydraulic press, equipment to bore and hone cylinders, all manner of valve tooling, high quality measuring equipment, a small granite surface plate,
well . . . you get the idea.

Since TG retired, his hobby is fettling motorcycles for people he knows, so long as they follow these three rules:
  • Don't ever get in a hurry.
  • Don't try to pay him.
  • Don't tell anybody where you got it.

O.K., so when I quit with the TR6 last April, I had a long list of other stuff to do. But, TG kept telling me that we could and should rework my cylinder head ourselves. It was a learning experience for sure, but we got it done -- I believe successfully, but time will tell.
Here's a picture of the head when I was taking things apart:

[Linked Image]

And here's where it is now:

[Linked Image]

I don't even own a valve spring compressor, but TG has a variety of sizes of them. We took the valves out and did some measuring. TG used this as an excuse to buy two more sizes of dial bore gages to complete his set. (Says he has a tool fetish.)

We were going to knurl the existing valve guides, because I had read so many bad things about removing valve guides (everything I read was true -- believe me). They were hard as glass, and that got nowhere.

I had soda blasted everything, and thought all the carbon was cleaned up. We proceeded to "Plan B" -- new valve guides. Did I mention that TG has an oven in his shop? In went the head. I had bought a guide drift, and of course we had a hammer. The intake guides came out, leaving nice smooth bores. The exhaust side, not so much. I had missed enough crap on the old guides that I grooved the bores.

(This is why John Healy recommends machining the top end of the old guide down flush with the head surface and then driving the remainder toward the chamber. Wish I had done that.)

This caused me some lost sleep for a while, but TG turned up a guide bush on his lathe, and we used it to keep the reamer as centered on the valve seat as possible. I bought some more valve guides (for the exhaust only) with oversize O.D.'s.

I decided I didn't want to hammer in the new guides, so I shopped around for one of those tools that pulls the new guide into place -- theoretically keeping it centered on the existing valve seat. These are as rare as hen's teeth these days. I guess other people are smart enough that there is little demand for them (or they were just temporarily out of stock everywhere at that time).

Here's what that kit looks like:

[Linked Image]

The shank that came with the tool was too big to fit through the valve guide, so TG honed it down to fit. As it turned out, we didn't hone it quite small enough. The first time we tried to use it, the guide was about halfway in place and picked up heat from the cylinder head. It closed in on the shank of the tool. I tried to keep it going, but the shank broke. I grabbed the drift and hammered the guide in the rest of the way. Then I made a new shank from some all-thread. It worked, but it was really hard to pull the guides into place. It doesn't sound like much, but .0015 inch is a lot of interference fit.

The upshot of all this was that the guides were not exactly aimed dead center on the existing seats. We had to remove more material from the seats to get them to clean up. That meant I had to hand blend the surrounding area near the seats -- not an easy task. eek cry

Here's the bottom of the head:

[Linked Image]

There were also issues with the valve stem height, springs, and seats. I could go on, but have probably said too much already. If you are doing this job, or thinking about it, you may want to read through the thread on the Triumph Forum where I was asking lots of questions back then ([color:#3366FF][u]Click HERE[/u][/color]). Thank goodness for all who helped, with special thanks to John Healy and Pete R.

We did eventually get it sorted out and it has the proper spring preload with very little shimming. Pete R's comments make me believe the valve geometry will be good. TG has a leakdown plate that we used and the valves seal extremely well. I have high hopes for success. The problem would be on the next valve job, if and when it is needed. But then, although I'm building this as a rider, I don't see this bike acquiring tons of miles in my lifetime.

Next update, I'll describe my joyous experience cleaning and painting the barrels.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#459553 - 10/20/12 1:22 am Re: Project update [Re: TR6Ray]  
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I have done a LOT of heads and the guides no matter how you put them in or with what you are going to have to grind or cut the seat to get them to seal. Some do end up more true to the seat then others.

Looking forward to more about this prodject but looks like you are doing a very fine job.


If you see my motorcycle on a trailer call the police it is stolen.

5 more states excluding Hawaii I will have them all on one motorcycle.

#459580 - 10/20/12 4:33 am Re: Project update [Re: TR6Ray]  
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I was afraid that would happen, looks like I best start playing catch up!
Your mates shed sounds great. Nice work Ray, keep it up!

Rod

#459901 - 10/21/12 11:36 pm Re: Project update [Re: R Moulding]  
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Some more catch-up of my project -- the jugs.

(I used a lot of extra words here in my tale of woe -- you may just want to glance at the pictures.) laughing

I mentioned earlier (quite a while ago, now) that my cyl bores were still on original factory spec. They checked good with my inside mics, having no ovality or taper. Later I took them to TG's shed and we went over them with his dial bore gage. He was amazed at their condition, saying he'd never seen Harley or Japanese cylinders that good. They had less than .0002 (that's two ten-thousandth's) variation wherever they were checked, top to bottom and all around -- not bad for some old British junk, eh? They were glazed though, and the rings were stuck on one piston. Remember, this thing sat still in a barn for forty one years.

He said he would hone the bores, but he wanted me to do the clean and paint first. O.K., we were done with the cyl head, so I thought I would work this in as a quick job among my summer honey-do catch-ups. I was sure in for a surprise! That factory paint was a son-of-a-gun to remove. In fact, the cylinder paint was probably the biggest PITA of this whole project so far (of course I'm not done yet).

Here's what they looked like when they came off the engine:
[Linked Image]

I didn't want glass beads inside the bores or on the gasket surfaces, so I made up a little plywood jig. I also cut some temporary gaskets to seal the top and bottom surfaces. I got some plastic plugs that fit in the tappet block bores. These were hose coupling protectors from my friend's junk bucket at his gas station. I also had a bit of blue Tack in the threaded holes for the bolts that lock the tappet blocks in position. Sad to say, the cyl block lived in this thing mostly all summer. I don't have a picture from this stage, but later I used some scraps of steel and made up some little trunnions to hang this thing up in the air for painting. Here's what my plywood jig looked like after the trunnions were added. Threaded rods run through each bore, with a nut on each end. The trunnions worked very well during the painting part. I could rotate the whole thing, keeping it all horizontal (but that came much later).

[Linked Image]

I bead blasted this thing seemingly forever, and the paint was barely phased at all. So, I tried some Airline Stripper -- didn't touch it. TG gave me some paint stripper that he said worked quicker than anything he'd tried -- didn't touch it!

I asked for help on the Triumph forum (Click Here) and H.T. told me I'd probably need to burn the paint off. After using the stripper, the paint got soft and the glass media would just bounce off. He was right, but I wound up getting the rest of the paint off with coarse sandpaper wrapped around the end of a cedar shim.

Many hours later, there was just a bit left to clean. I put it back in the blast cabinet and rolled the cabinet outside. After about an hour blasting, I went in the garage for a break. Heard a big crash outside????

When I went back out, there was a big mess. The wind had caught the cabinet (which is on a cart with rollers), turned it sideways, and flipped it over on its face. The cyl block came out through the glass front, and beads and broken glass were everywhere.

The cabinet could be repaired, but my first sickening thought was whether I had any broken fins on the barrels. Turned out that they all survived the ride!

So, I put new glass in the cabinet and finished it up. Now it was paint time. There's another thread on the Triumph forum with paint info (Click Here).

I chased down a lot of info on VHT Barrel Paint, then had to chase down the paint itself. Wound up using all four parts of their process. I won't blame their product, but it did not turn out well. Those barrel fins are about 1 1/2 inches deep, and only spaced about .200 inch apart. Things went well with the prep spray and the primer. Not so well with the black finish coat. I could not get a proper spray angle that would lay down a flow coat on the faces of the fins. Meanwhile, I was getting too much paint built up on the edges and at the base of the fins. After working on this for almost 5 hours, the final coat of clear reacted and wrinkled the paint in various places all over the barrels. This was probably for the best. I had it too thick and I'm sure it would not have held up.

After contemplating suicide for a while, it was back to the beginning -- stripping paint. I finally did something right. I ditched the Harbor Freight glass media that I had been using, and sent away for some Skat Magic blasting media (Click Here) . This stuff is made from recycled auto glass (windshields and such) and has fractured edges. It is more aggressive and worked very well. I was able to turn the pressure down to about 30 psi and blast my barrels clean. I also bought new cabinet gloves from these folks, since the old ones got cut to ribbons during the tip-over.

Clean once again, I took some advice from Tridentman, and brushed on POR-15. This was also a four step process. I used their Marine Clean to get the metal clean. Then I used their Prep & Ready to lightly acid etch the metal. Next I brushed on a coat of POR-15 black paint. Finally, I brushed on a coat of their Black Engine Paint. This is needed because the POR-15, which is nearly indestructible, will not hold its color when exposed to UV light. The engine paint as a top coat will handle this.

We honed the bores over at TG's shed. Then we placed a piece of wet/dry sandpaper wetted with some WD-40 on the granite plate. I placed the jugs on there with the head deck on the sandpaper, and rubbed it around lightly till the whole top was bright -- didn't take much at all.

Next came a critical step that John Healy has stressed over and over -- after honing, wash with hot soapy water. Use a clean lint free towel and some oil to rub all around in the bores. Finally use clean white towels to try to rub all the oil back out of the bores. Keep going till the towels come out clean.

I found that a new toilet bowl brush from the local big box store was just right for this bore size. Coincidence? You decide:

[Linked Image]

Here's the final shot, honed, cleaned, and ready to go:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Enough for now. Next up -- crankshaft and rods are back together.




'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#459913 - 10/22/12 12:37 am Re: Project update [Re: TR6Ray]  
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Wow!

Thanks for the blow-by-blow. It takes a lot of fortitude to stick to something like this through thick and thin .... and thick and thin paint too ....

Lannis


OK, I admit it, I'm addicted to brake fluid.

But I can stop any time I want.
#459939 - 10/22/12 3:32 am More on the '64 [Re: Lannis]  
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The crankshaft assembly . . .

My friend TG and I had checked my crankshaft and rods every which way, and could find nothing wrong. I even considered re-using the original bearing shells, but later on changed my mind and bought new. I did a bit of a write-up earlier about the sludge trap, which actually gave very little trouble compared to the stories I have read about that job. I had cleaned the crank as well as I thought I could at that time, then wrapped it up and put it away.

So, last week, I got it out and cleaned it yet again. I also very lightly polished the TS end, such that the new main bearing will go on with a very snug sliding fit. This engine originally had a ball bearing main on both ends, and located from the DS. After much reading and having exchanged a ton of conversation with Pete R and John Healy, I elected to go with the later roller bearing (fitment CN) on the drive side, and a new ball bearing (fitment C3) on the timing side. I am adding the clamping washer on the TS, along with the later style pinion. The crank will now be located from the TS. I will be checking end play (prior to tightening the pinion nut), and measuring to see if the rods are central to the bores (after snugging up the pinion nut). I am thankful that both those gentlemen have so much patience and are willing to share their knowledge and experience.

John Healy also wrote an excellent Tech Tips article in Vintage Bike Magazine (Winter 2009-10), which I recommend highly for anyone doing this task. I had read this a number of times. When I finally got around to trying this myself, it was very reassuring to have my measurements (inside diameter of the rod big-ends, bearing shell crush, rod side play, rod bolt stretch, etc.) come up the same as in the article. So, with the first rod assembled to the crank (assembly lube on the journal and on the bearing shell) it was a sweet sight indeed to see the rod move freely all the way around, and to fall slowly under its own weight when released. Even better when the second one did also.

Pete R mentioned somewhere along the line that with the rods assembled onto the crank, you should be able to easily slip an 11/16 diameter rod through both small end bushes. This would be a rough test to see if one or both rods are bent, or twisted. I bought a 12 inch piece of drill rod from McMaster Carr for this purpose. I will also use it to check relative to the crankcase mouth later. Anyway, the rod slid neatly through both small end bushes. Here's a picture:

[Linked Image]

To me, the rod looks bent in this picture, but it is actually very straight. I found that 11/16 rod is not something carried at any hardware or farm store in my town. They all skip from 5/8 to 3/4 diameter. McMaster Carr has drill rod in this size in a variety of steel specs.

After much consideration, measurement, and cleaning/polishing, I am keeping and re-using everything here except the big end shells and the sludge trap plug, which were replaced.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#459942 - 10/22/12 4:12 am Re: More on the '64 [Re: TR6Ray]  
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Dont stop now, your nearly riding it!

Lovin the bog brush!

Rod

#460155 - 10/23/12 4:09 am Re: More on the '64 [Re: R Moulding]  
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Thanks for the encouragement, Rod, I'll take all the help I can get.

Funny you should mention "nearly riding it". Up until about three weeks ago, I had never ridden a Triumph in my life -- not once. Yet here I am trying to learn all about this old TR6.

I finally fixed that situation. I rode my friend's '64 Bonneville, then his new Thruxton, then his wife's BMW, then his brother's '79 T140. In exchange, they both took one of my Harleys up and down the road. A fun day, but all things considered, I'd have to say I like the T140E the best. I am surprised that I feel that way, because when I was a kid I never thought much of Triumph after 1970. Guess I am now seeing the light.

I'm hoping that when my TR6 is finally back on the road, it will be my favorite Triumph.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#460164 - 10/23/12 6:47 am Re: More on the '64 [Re: TR6Ray]  
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Different kettle of fish in my mind mate. The joy comes from knowing your old bike, learning how much to tickle it and how much throttle she likes from cold, watching the faces of people as it fires up first kick. Then there is the riding, you gotta learn how to tickle the speed of with that single leading shoe front brake as you drop a cog and listen to exhaust burble on the over run (you can do this leaning into a fast bend on the inside of a bunch of ape hanger equiped Harleys!) before winding the clock round to 5 grand. Guess which Triumph is my favorite!

Sorry to rabbit on
Rod

#460593 - 10/25/12 10:21 pm More on the '64 [Re: R Moulding]  
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Rod, I don't see that as "rabbitting on". I think that might be the best one paragraph statement of "why I love my motorcycle" that I have ever read. Ranks right up there with Peter Egan. Here's something Egan wrote once about his '67 Bonneville that caught my eye (his book Leanings, p. 77). He used more words than you did, but then he makes his living as a writer:

"The roll axis of the bike feels to be between your ankles rather than sloshing and lost somewhere in the gas tank. It gives you the odd, anachronistic sensation you are riding a motorbike -- a genuine motorized bicycle; a Schwinn paper-boy special with a big hairy engine bolted into the frame -- rather than a two-wheeled transportation module. Perhaps the heart of the Triumph's appeal lies in the subconscious feeling of eternal wonderment that you are hurtling down the road without having to pedal.

The Bonneville's big advantage, of course, is that it was built just before unelected public servants got into vehicle design. So the Triumph has a front fork unburdened by turn signals, beepers, reflectors, timers, dashboards, and idiot lights, which makes the steering light and precise. The tail light, though visible at night, is smaller than a breadbox, and the shift lever is on the right because, by god, that's where the transmission is. The muffler muffles without strangling (silencer, the British term, is an exaggeration) and the engine has no emission controls to help motorcyclists atone for the past sins of Elderado owners."

Now I guess its me rabbiting on. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts! You've been more help to me on this project than you can imagine.
beerchug
_______________________________________________________________________

I've maybe progressed enough for another update, so here goes:

After leaving the new main bearings in the freezer over night, I baked the cases at 225 F for 30 minutes each. Both main bearings and the gearbox mainshaft bearing -- all dropped to the bottom of their bores with a satisfying "Plink!" No cocking in the bores or other misadventures. Lord, I worried about that for so long, and it was done in an instant with absolutely no issues!

I cribbed up the primary on two long 4x6 blocks on the benchtop. After fitting the rollers and inner race from the new DS roller bearing onto the crank, I slid the crank down into the DS case. This was followed by the TS case dropping down onto the other end. Sorting through my cad plated hardware, I snugged the cases together. No camshafts, breather, pistons, gaskets, or sealer yet. I just wanted to see how much crankshaft end float there was, and to make sure the crank would go round and round with the cases back toghether. The rods were in place, and protected by cardboard tubes (from inside a paper towel roll).

I decided it would be quicker and easier to put the assembly back up on my home-made engine stand to check this stuff out.

[Linked Image]

That made it easy to install the cylinder base studs and attach the jugs. After I did that, I remembered that I had meant to check the rods vs. the crankcase mouth, using the 11/16 rod that I mentioned earlier. Guess I will do that later.

If I use my imagination, it looks like only a slight nudge would have the old girl back in one piece, but I know better:

[Linked Image]

Anyway, the crank does indeed go round 'n round quite nicely. The engine stand made a handy spot for my old mag base dial indicator. I pushed the crank all the way toward the DS and zeroed the dial:

[Linked Image]

Then reached around and pushed from the DS toward the TS, coming up with just under .020 inch of end float. (Notice this was done without the clamping washer, pinion, or nut in place yet.

[Linked Image]

Next, I wanted to measure how centrally the rods were situated in the cylinder bores, with the crank pulled to the timing side. I did not see a reason to fit the pinion only to have to pull it and put it back on later. With this in mind, I cut a spacer to take the place of the pinion temporarily. It is just a piece of 3/4" black pipe, opened slightly inside with a Dremel to make it a loose fit on the end of the crank. TG was ill, or I would have had him do this on his lathe.

[Linked Image]

With the spacer and nut pulling the crank to the timing side, I used an expanding snap gage and an outside mic to measure the centrality of the con rods vs. the bores:

[Linked Image]

This picture doesn't show it, but I was holding the rod small end and pushing or pulling to take out all the rod's side play on the crank while measuring with the gage using my other hand. This takes some practice, and I did it numerous times. I sort of didn't believe my measurements, so I left it overnight and checked again the next day. Got the same thing -- both rods are dead central. This surprised me, because originally the crank was located from the DS, now I am locating from the TS. Oh well, don't look a gift horse in the mouth, they say!

So, I will need to add one shim between the crank cheek and the inner race of the DS roller bearing, the purpose being to reduce the end float. With the rods already central, I will not use any shim on the TS bearing. End float spec is .003 to .017 inch. Pete R recommends getting that down toward the minimum, so I could use a .015 shim. On the other hand, the mean dimension between .003 and .017 is .010, so I could "shoot for the mean" and use a .010 shim. Decisions, decisions!

Note: I am fully aware that with a clamping washer fitted on the pinion end, the crankshaft "float" is controlled by the internal clearance of the TS main ball bearing. This dimension does, however, control the clearance between the ends of the rollers and the single lip outer race on the DS main. Also, some believe that at operating temperature, the main bearings are no longer a press fit in the cases, and actually can walk left and right, contained only by the bearing shoulders in the case bores. It is considered good, from what I have read, to limit this motion.

To be continued!


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#460708 - 10/26/12 5:25 pm Re: More on the '64 [Re: TR6Ray]  
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Christchurch NZ

Now that really has to instill some faith in the engineering skills of them old boys in brown coats, especially when you read about how worn out the equipment was! Takes a skilled man to compensate for his equipment.

Wish i had your measuring gear kicking around my garage. Sure looks good parked next to the frame like that.

Rod

#460785 - 10/27/12 3:41 am Re: More on the '64 [Re: TR6Ray]  
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I just read through the thread. Awesome job Ray. A good story, but I feel sad about the PO missing so many years of having the bike but not getting to enjoy it. There are a lot of good life stories out there with these old bikes. I have mine and reading other peoples makes me think of mine. Thanks for stirring the memories.

#460831 - 10/27/12 1:06 pm Re: More on the '64 [Re: 79T140E]  
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Thanks for your comments, T140E. I'm planning to take a ride today and go visit the PO. He is a true survivor, still riding at 78 yrs, after resolving medical issues that would have made many younger men call it quits.

I don't know if you caught it when you read through my build story, but I got a chance to ride a friend's '79 T140E a while back. A sweet bike for sure! Just in time, Redmoggy set me straight on why I should be happy with what I have (assuming I ever get to ride it).

Here's a picture of the T140E which I got to ride:

[Linked Image]


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#461016 - 10/28/12 8:11 pm Re: More on the '64 [Re: ]  
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(This post was in response to Allan Gill's question about how I cleaned the cylinder head. Allan's question doesn't show, because his post was part of the great thread disappearance that took place here on BritBike. He decided he had been spending too much time on the forum and he asked Morgan to delete all his content. That caused some disruption in other threads and even deleted entire contents of a number of threads. All this caused some hard feelings, but that is all in the past now.)

Allan, most would say it is too shiny to look proper. Thinking back, I blasted with the baking soda which got it pretty clean, but dull and white. Then I polished both by hand and with a small cloth wheel in my Dremel tool (where there was access), using Mother's Alu Polish. To get between the fins, I was wrapping a bit of old towel (sometimes a bit of an old tee-shirt) around a popsickle stick. This had it looking much as it does now. All this was time consuming and rather a PITA!

Then, after the valve work was done, I ran it for about an hour in my friend's industrial grade ultrasonic cleaner to get rid of any swarf. This was in a a 10% solution of Chem Crest 2003 in distilled water. This is a very good cleaner, and it does not darken aluminum as some do. The temp was set for 120 degrees F, but crept up as the process went along. I think it got up to slightly over 130 degrees F. This left some "starburst" patterns in the aluminum. They sort of looked like snowflakes. They were not pitted or etched into the surface though, and they came off fairly easily with some aluminum polish (by hand again, but this time using Zephyr Pro-40 Metal Polish). So, this thing has been through the mill.

Vapor blasting may be worth the cost, when you consider the time involved otherwise. However, I still worry, rightly or wrongly so, about glass media getting left behind. Many do it and it looks very good. Compared to the shininess of my cylinder head, I actually prefer the look of glass bead blasted finish I've seen on these heads (and cases), but again, I was afraid of residual media.

An alternate method I was fooling with at the same time:

Before discovering the Chem Crest 2003 cleaning solution, I had run some Keihin carburetor bodies in a different ultrasonic cleaning solution that came out clean but nasty looking:

[Linked Image]

I could not get rid of the dull gray color. I tried an aluminum wheel cleaner from the Auto Zone Store, which did nothing at all. I finally went to see a guy I know who works on big trucks. One of his guys polishes wheels, fuel tanks, etc. They gave me a bit of the aluminum brightener that they use (I think the brand is "Zep Trailer Cleaner and Brightener"). This stuff is supposed to be diluted in water, down to about 1 part in 10. I used a small amount undiluted, brushing on with an artists brush and then flushing with water after a few minutes. I followed that by hand polishing with Zephyr Pro-40 Metal Polish (the truck shop guy turned me onto that product as well). They came up nicely:

[Linked Image]

If I ever get my mitts on that old BMW air head I'm sort of lusting over, I plan to use this stuff on the cases.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#461544 - 11/02/12 12:18 am Re: More on the '64 [Re: TR6Ray]  
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Great job T-Ray! Its getting near that "fire up the garage heater" season.

bel


Go for a ride on a preunit laugh

September 2010 Cuyahoga Valley Ride

'55 "The Mighty 6T", '73 Commando in boxes, '01 DR650, '90 CR250

#462981 - 11/12/12 8:51 pm Re: More on the '64 [Re: Beljum]  
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Originally Posted by Beljum

Great job T-Ray! Its getting near that "fire up the garage heater" season.

bel

Right you are, Bel, and I've had it on a few times already (mostly when I was out there loafing), even though we are still getting some good riding days here in central Illinois. But then, since the TR6 is in my heated basement work room, I really have no excuse for the lack of recent progress.

I get hung up over the simplest things. After all this time, I still had not decided what oil I want to put in this engine. I think I have read every oil thread on the Britbike forum. While it's not yet time to fill up the oil tank, it is time to prime the crankshaft -- actually past time, because it would have been easier to do this before the DS rod was back on. A recent post by Mr. Healy helped me decide. I think it's the clearest, most helpful lubricant statement on this forum, so I'll paste it in here complete:

Originally Posted by John Healy
What I look for in oil for a Triumph:
Viscosity 20/50
API SG rated
JASO MA non-friction modified (MA-MA1- MA2)

You should be looking for the same specifications in your break-in oil, especially the 20/50 viscosity (or 40 if it is a single weight). Typically break-in will be compatible with SG specifications and not have any friction modifiers by design.

These oils are marketed for use in motorcycles, especially ones where the clutch runs in engine oil. While a lot of Triumphs clutches run in separate oil, the lack of friction modifiers also helps with the ring break-in process especially if break-in oil isn't used. You are in effect paying a premium for the oil company to leave out the friction modifiers that are the basis of modern automotive oils. If you object to spending 200 to 300% premium for motorcycle oil, if you don't have clutch issues, use it for the first oil change and then switch to a modern 20/50.

Nearly all of the major oil companies offer this 20/50, SG, JASO MA formulation in traditional dinosaur and blended synthetics. Synthetics (rated as above) are perfect for these bikes as long as the rings are seated before it is used.

But IMHO break-in starts with assembly and an assembly lubricant. I have been using Torco MPZ-EAL for rod bearings etc and Torco EAL-HD for camshafts, lifters, valve stem and rocker adjusters and buttons. I don't rely on engine oil for initial start-up especially for the valve train.

No matter which oil you choose there is no more important step in the break-in process than priming the oil system. This includes inside the engine, any oil filters (especially if on the feed side) and all of the oil lines. You want a copious amount of oil flowing through the rod bearings immediately at start up. If the rod bearings runs dry for any length of time you can permanently damage them. This is common service problem with triples where the oil filter is replaced and the oil filter cavity not filled with oil before the cover is offered. It takes the oil pump several seconds to fill the cavity all the while the rod and main bearings are running without oil pressure.

And what ever oil you use there is no better advice than to change it regularly. Most oils loose as much as 40% of their viscosity in little more than 1,000 miles. The exception being Mobil 1.
HTH
John

First I thought he was either crazy or looking at some really old information. API SG -- really? That spec got superseded in about 1994, and the API folks have run through the alphabet all the way up to SN by now. Then there's the ILSAC group. However, nearly all these changes came about due to the cursed EPA, and have to do mostly with automobile engines. Looking about some, I found that John was of course correct. You can still buy 20W50 oil to the API SG spec. You can also buy straight weight, non-detergent, no-name oil if you want to. I decided not to. I thought about using Harley Davidson 20W50, which I have used for years in my you-know-whats. Looking at their jug to see what API spec it meets, I find that it does not carry the API donut on the container. It is certified by Harley Davidson to be the best for their motorcycles, but carries no other ratings on the label. I still think it is good oil, and the TR6 may get that down the road. For initial fill, though, I can go a bit cheaper. I have fitted an oil filter, and cleaned out all the oil passages, so I think detergent oil is a good idea. I'm already using Harley fork oil, and will probably use their primary and gearbox oil when I get that far. My TR6 primary does not share oil with the crankcase, and I've never had a clutch or tranny problem on any Harley. It has served me well for many thousands of miles, and I've got some of each on the shelf.

So, British bike, British oil. The label reads well, and it meets API SG, as well as JASO MA. It's also available up the street at the Auto Zone store at about $5 US per quart:

[Linked Image]

Another hang-up was which assembly lube to use. I had some Lucas assembly lube, which is probably good stuff. However, John Healy and Pete R have posted numerous times about cam lube, and John has often said that there is a difference between regular engine assembly lube and cam lube. He mentioned recently that he has been using Torco (see quote above), so I tracked some down over the internet. The red tube holds the heavier duty stuff for "high pressure points":

[Linked Image]

Then I got to thinking that it would be worth my time to make up one of those elusive CD474 locking tools that Thomas Gunn tells us to use in his Engine Overhaul manual. I have never seen a picture of one in any of the Triumph manuals, but there is a blurb in a TriCor service bulletin (Sept. 26, 1967), on how to use the tool. Also, when you google it, up comes a post on TriumphRat where they describe it. So, here's my attempt at it:

[Linked Image]

The long bar is aluminum, 1" by 1" by 7-5/8". The holes are 25/64", and are 6-9/16" on center. The hex-shaped spacers will let me use a couple of my actual 3/8" head bolts. I didn't want to take a chance on running anything else down into my cylinder block threads. The spacers are just some 3/8" barrel nuts (1-3/4" long) which I opened up with the 25/64 drill. The round bar is 11/16" drill rod, 4-1/2" long. The drill rod and the aluminum bar stock came from McMaster Carr.

Also from the same source, I got the proper shim for my crankshaft. I screwed up and ordered the wrong diameter, so had to re-order. 1-1/4" ID x 1-3/4" OD x .016" thick (stainless steel) is a good fit. The bar stock and such gets delivered to my door the day after I order it. Not so fast with the shim stock. That had me hung up waiting for a while.

Finally, another distraction has been the previous owner of my TR6. I posted a picture of him earlier, shedding crocodile tears over losing his old bike back when I first picked up this Triumph from his place (crying on the outside, laughing at me on the inside):

[Linked Image]

Well, he's been at it again. I've been talking with him for several years now about his old smokin' 2-stroker. Last week, we decided to do the deal. Here he is acting sad over losing another one.:

[Linked Image]

While I know that many of you take pride in the fact that you have never swung a leg over a Jap bike, I have to admit that I now officially have more Jap bikes than any other nationality. Here's the 1975 Yamaha RD250 that I brought home last week from Jack's place. I spent a couple days cleaning it up, using that workshop heater that Beljum mentioned at the beginning of this lengthy post:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

You may agree with my wife, who thinks it is an ugly old piece of Japanese crap, but I like it. My first bike ever was a '66 Yamaha YDS3C -- the 250cc Big Bear Scrambler. I haven't heard ring-a-ding-ding for a long time now. Ah yes, another project, and sort of back to my roots at the same time. The guy who went with me to help load this thing is the old high school buddy that sold me the YDS3C back in 1969. He and Jack hit it off well, and we had a grand day:

[Linked Image]

We are still good friends. Things in life sometimes go full circle.

Sorry if I ran on too long again.

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#463040 - 11/13/12 1:38 am Re: More on the '64 [Re: TR6Ray]  
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Another awesome post Ray. Not that I'm into 2 strokes, but that is a really clean looking bike.

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