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#419842 - 02/20/12 7:39 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods *** [Re: bon]  
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ste Offline
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Middlesbrough, north Yorkshire...
Ok bon the way it was explained to me was this ,if you have the oil ways done use a +50% oil pump and you do the cross drilling you will have a bullet proof bottom end.To some one that cut his teeth on triumphs in the seventies seeing trident after trident with rods hanging out of the crank cases any improvement in the oil supply is a good thing ,a common miss understanding with Tridents is that the rods are the problem ,big end's seizing up is the real problem.I have seen carillo rod's broken in two so don't be tempted to pay for them spend your money on getting the oil way's,oil pump +50% and cross drill the crank and make sure you are meticulous with the engine preparation , the extra volume of oil the pump puts through your motor also helps with cooling. I do not now what level of engineering ability or equipment you have available but if you have any worries give it to a engineer with the experience in doing the job.

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#419872 - 02/20/12 9:37 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Thanks for that ste , as money is tight for bike projects at the mo i only want to spend it on the essentials , a set of new conrods is one , how much would a high output pump set me back ? I do have a lathe and a pillar drill, plus access to a milling machine ,i am time served in engineering so i will look further into the drilling of the crankshaft and oilways.

#419874 - 02/20/12 9:51 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Triple bottom ends were always regarded as pretty much bulletproof if the bike was cared for. That would include warming it up before riding hard and changing the oil regularly as well as keeping the quantity up. They are plain bearing cranks and very sensitive to oil quality and supply. I have heard the horror stories and was around when Tridents and Commando's were traded in and sat on the floor for years as people switched to Z1's and 750 4's. Quite honestly most people who ran Brit bikes and moved to the Japs were not very tolerant of their machinery. I rode and fixed a lot of those second and third hand machines and very few of them were set up to run properly. Hence the reliability issues. I only threw one rod on a Trident and that was my own fault, ran it low on oil once and then it was only matter of time. It certainly does not hurt to enlarge oil ways but I think the one major improvement in the oil system is the enlarged feed to the oil pump which the T160 had from factory.

#419900 - 02/21/12 12:51 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Quote:
I think the one major improvement in the oil system is the enlarged feed to the oil pump which the T160 had from factory.


Amen! This helps a lot from "dry" start-ups and was a real improvement.

While you can break any rod, you are much less apt to break a Carillo in a Trident when the rod bearing locks up from lack of oil.

Some other things a lot of you understand, but you guys never seem to talk about:
If oil pressure falls below 60 pounds it is time to check the main bearings before you put a right rod through the cases, camshaft, cylinder, etc. Never race a Trident when the oil pressure falls to 60 pounds!!!

When changing the oil filter fill the filter cavity with oil before putting the cover on. Failing this, it takes time for the pump to fill the cavity and the mains are fed directly from the oil filter cavity. The mains run dry, as do the rods, until the cavity is filled. You can sure kill a Trident with kindness...

If you have had the crankshaft center mains ground be sure to check them for concentricity with the crankshaft ball and roller bosses before offering the crankshaft to the engine. I must have 15 T150/T160/A75 crankshafts upstairs that have had the mains ground where they are not Concentric with the two outside bearing bosses. Some are so much out, that the crankshaft would not turn when the outside cases were offered. Others with .0005", or a tad more, that would turn freely but would have wiped the bearing shell when used.

Never use the stock crankshaft oil pump pinion with a modern, large inner radius, drive side main bearing. Always use the ones made by David Holder with the larger shoulder to ride against the side of the bearing and not get sucked into the radius as you tighten the sprocket nut.


#419909 - 02/21/12 2:07 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Unless you want the experience of drilling the crank, I do not believe there is much benefit to the fourth oilway. The US race team did not use it. Presumably you already deleted the tappet oil feeds so there already is more oil available for the rods and mains.
Instead of a 50% pump (no idea of the cost) you can increase oil flow this way:

The sprockets and chain are from a Virago and gives a 25% increase in pump speed. The pump shaft has to have a second flat to match the Virago gear but amazingly that is all. The engine sprocket needs a spacer to fit the triple crank. The splines on the drive gear are overkill. The gear is clamped between the output sprocket and main bearing and the pump power requirements is really low. The Virago does not spline the pump drive gear on the crank.
The slipper pad has a set screw that pushes on the case boss to set the tension.
If you want to spend money on reliability, replace the adjusters with 911 elephant foot type. They spread out the contact patch and you will have very little wear on the valves.

A mushroom adjuster is still a point contact, just harder material than the stock adjusters. No lash cap is necessary with the 911 adjuster.

#419974 - 02/21/12 2:26 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Being that the standard pump is supplying enough oil to build pressure, where it will open the by-pass valve, what are you doing to the engine to keep the extra volume from just going out the by-pass?

Do you do like most users of high volume pumps in racing applications increase the main and rod bearing clearances, if so how much?

Then if, as I suspect, a lot more, if not all of the extra volume, oil is diverted through the by-pass are you making changes to allow the by-pass to handle the extra volume of a 50% larger pump?


#419980 - 02/21/12 3:20 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Ok bon sounds like you have all the skills and equipment required I think the pumps are around 250 from UK suppliers Rob North Triples,P&M I am not aware of any US dealers that supply them but they must be some one Big D may be or triple tech.

#419996 - 02/21/12 4:20 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Bon a complete set of high capacity oil pump with the lightened gears cost more than 450 sterling pounds plus vat outch!!!!!!!!250 sterling pounds is an old price without 20%vat.As you have see on tridents you can do many modifications for reliability and performance while the prices are too high, also to rebuild the engine is twice difficult than a twin triumph engine.Finally to fit in featherbed you will must to cut and widely the bottom rails of the frame.But i see that you like the expensive and difficult things.Never mind we have the same spirit.Cheers Kostas.

#420012 - 02/21/12 5:33 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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To be honest kostas , i was told the trident was expensive to buy spare parts for , but while i think this might have been true maybe 10 years or so , i don't think it is today , the prices for parts for the big twins are expensive now and probabily more expensive then the trident. I personally think this is because the classic motorcycle magazines never stop singing the praises of the bonniville, rocket goldie, dommys etc. the days of picking up cheap old brit twins to rasp around on are long gone.

#420028 - 02/21/12 7:12 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Hi Bon ,the North in ste's video is mine and was my first foray into the world of Triumph Triples - though not Triumphs !. And as you can see oppions differ greatly .
I'm supprised that Dave does not embrace the "cross drilling" of the crank - when he upgrades (superbly) everything else .As it was told to me ; it improves the reliability and balance of oil being fed from the main bearings to the big ends( i can't say if the "works" bike had it done - but the coloured engine lubrication chart found in factory workshop manuals shows the crank completly "cross" drilled . And at a cost of 40 "why" would i not have it done !!!).
The uprated Oil pump does indeed improve flow 30% on mine ( again another tick for reliablity !)- but as i understand it the biggest gain is the 50% increase on the the scavenge (return) , which all in all circulates more oil (never a bad thing) and the engine runs a lot cooler (again a good thing!).
Enlarging ( a specialist job - like the Cross drilling in my oppinion ) the Oil feed & return Pipes and oilways is a must - but dont forget to fit an enlarged feed from the oil tank also.
The list is endless when to comes to modifacations . Some like smoothing out and polishing the rockers you can do yourself , lightening anything on the valve train gives dividends , i also had my cylinder head coverted to centre spark plugs to give a cleaner burn and lessen pinking ( 60 ).
Though my motor is all but full race spec a good cam for fast road use is Megacycles x5 (also known as a high torque cam), because it's very strong in the midrange .
Try to find a specialist who gives good advice freely , the manual available from the Trident and Rocket 3 Owners Club is a must and should be read from cover to cover befor you make any decisions on what to do.
Forums are great but can give huge coflicting advice .Even at full race spec my motor starts readily - runs quite and as sweet as a sewing machine - i'd like to think it's because i listened to some very good advice from peaple who know their stuff , fitted good quality parts and spent many hours in preperation .
So best of luck with your project and if i can be of any help just ask .
Pete

Last edited by PAC; 02/21/12 8:15 pm.
#420036 - 02/21/12 7:34 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Hello and welcome and thanks for the advice PAC , i have worked on the triumph twins for years as i commute on a 500 , so need to be able to maintain it regularly , the triples i always assumed were a twin with an extra cylinder attached , this was a mistake ,they are completely different.
Knowing what to do to ensure the engine is reliable is the first and most important consideration for me, a bit more pep is always welcome though, but as money is tight i don't mind if i can't do much on that front.
The modifications to the lubrication and breathing system seem to be the most important.

#420643 - 02/25/12 8:58 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Somewhere , sometime , when you least expect it . . .
someone menioned it Somewhere .

Jim Rices machine .
http://www.motohistory.net/news2008/news-may08.html



Rayguns , mandatory . Tri - Ton - down - bypass .


Last edited by Pre Unit; 02/26/12 4:42 am.
#420738 - 02/25/12 7:14 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: John Healy]  
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Originally Posted By: John Healy
Being that the standard pump is supplying enough oil to build pressure, where it will open the by-pass valve, what are you doing to the engine to keep the extra volume from just going out the by-pass?

Do you do like most users of high volume pumps in racing applications increase the main and rod bearing clearances, if so how much?

Then if, as I suspect, a lot more, if not all of the extra volume, oil is diverted through the by-pass are you making changes to allow the by-pass to handle the extra volume of a 50% larger pump?


Hi John ... yes the +50 pumps did indeed pass the oil straight past the pressure release valves especially if lighter weight oils are not used ....

The newer high capacity pump is +30% input and +50% scavenge ... in my case on the race bikes , as i believe many other race bikes do, I run a 10/40 fully synthetic which allows very good use of the +30% on the input side of the pump and allows it to be as it was designed high capacity and not high pressure ...

Steve

#420795 - 02/25/12 11:12 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Morgan sorry for the use of all this bandwidth!
Steve:
This creates a conundrum. Our crankshaft finishes do not warrant the use of lighter viscosity oil. The technology used to finish these crankshafts dictates the use of 20/50 as stated by Triumph, and most other British motorcycle manufactures of the day. Over the past 25 years we have had an on going conversation about these things in Vintage Bike. While you might not be familiar with the author of these musing, Kevin Cameron is a noted motorcycle engineer and journalist. He enjoys writing for Vintage Bike because he doesn't have to study every word being afraid that he might offend some advertiser - He can present engineering as it is not as the advertisers want you to believe.

These are copies from various article he has written for my magazine:
"Present-day plain-bearing engines are designed to operate with lower-viscosity oils than was formerly the case, with the goal of reducing engine friction. Many an owner of older bikes has heard only this much - that lower-vis oils are "horsepower in a can"! Glug-glug, in chugs the 0W-15 oil, filling the tank of the older engine. At start-up, the idle is slightly faster. Look! It's working already! Free horsepower! Eagerly the experimenter rides off to find out how much extra top speed his oil change has bought him. What is his reward? Scored valve tappets, piston seizure, spun con-rod bearings? Take your pick. Oil carries loads through its viscosity. When the engine was originally developed, its engineers performed oil tests to discover what oil viscosity was required to adequately protect its parts. That is then printed in the owners' manual and the number doesn't change just because later-designed engines are designed in detail to run on lighter oils.

To carry heavy loads with thinner oil, the minimum oil film thickness at peak load has to decrease. Since the number is already quite small of the order of two microns (1 micron = .000039"), and since the roughness and out-of-round of crankpins manufactured 30-40 years ago (or refinished today) is not much less, the only way we can do this is to produce more truly round and locally very smooth crankpins. The "Superfinish" process employed in present-day auto and motorcycle engine factories was, like so much else, developed during WW II and then forgotten in easy-money days of the postwar boom. The Superfinish process is not to be confused with the 'micro-polish' offered by crank regrind shops, which is the same as shoe-polishing.

The point? Without such highly-finished crankpins, use of lighter oils in engines not designed for them invites failure. Further, current engines all have full-flow oil filtration to protect their smaller clearances from the dreaded Foreign Object Damage."

and

"Hold on. Shouldn't we examine the engine as a system, rather than just seeking to give it MORE of everything? The first point to make is that oil pump pressure does not support the load in a plain bearing. Long ago it was discovered that it is viscosity, combined with the motion of the bearing, that sweeps oil into the loaded zone. There, oil pressure reaches values (which have been measured directly) of several thousand psi. A moment's thought shows this must be true. The mass of one piston, wristpin, rings, and con-rod is of the order of a pound, and the loaded area of the rod's big-end bearing is of the order of a square inch. At a Triumph's peak revs, maximum piston acceleration is about 2500Gs. Therefore average pressure in the oil film of the big-end bearing, resulting from this inertia force at TDC on the exhaust stroke, is of the order of 2500-psi. No engine oil pump generates even a tenth of that. Or, look at combustion load. A 650's bore of 71-mm gives it a piston area of about six square inches. Peak combustion pressure, by rule-of-thumb, is one hundred times the compression ratio, so that gives us about 800-psi. That, times the piston area gives us a down-force on the big-end bearing of 4800 pounds. "

"Therefore the oil pump's job is just to push oil into the unloaded half of the bearing, while the pressure to support the load is generated on the other side of the bearing by viscosity and bearing motion. Oil enters the bearing through the crankpin oil hole(s) during that phase of bearing action when the oil hole is in the unloaded, or "clearance" part of the bearing. Typical oil film thickness in the loaded part of the bearing, at peak load, is something like .00006 inch."

Kevin goes on to say that extra flow is warranted in some applications, but provisions must be made to handle it. Oil flow, and thus oil pressure, is determined by the resistance to its flow through the crankshaft, plain bearing and rod side clearance and the set pressure of the oil by-pass valve spring.

If there is any benefit using a high volume pump on a Trident, where the by-pass directs oil directly toward the oil cooler it is offset by the heat generated as the oil is compressed as it pass through the oil pump.

The big benefit will come when the rod side clearance is increased and the clearance of the plain bearing is increased by as much as .0005". With the increased flow of the high volume pump you will retain pressure and increase rod cooling.

and from my perspective:
The disadvantages of a high flow pump is heats the oil more than a standard pump, requires more engine power to run it, and unless there are some modifications made to the oiling system all of the extra volume just exits through the by-pass valve. Of course that is if the by-pass valve system can handle the volume (Using a Morgo rotary Triumph 500 twins cannot handle the volume and the by-pass system must be modified - The 650-750 bypass system is just barely able to handle the extra oil). In systems were oil flow to the crankshaft is through a seal, it can routinely invert the seal.

This is common when a Morgo rotary is used in a Triumph twin, especially during a cold start-up or high rpm. Race engines with high volume oiling systems, using rather viscous oil, are routinely warmed with electrical heaters before starting.
John Healy - Vintage Bike Magazine


#420878 - 02/26/12 4:45 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Willie Makeit .




#420882 - 02/26/12 4:58 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Obviously the pipes require consideration in regard to Ground Clearance . AND tidyness

Last edited by Pre Unit; 02/26/12 5:06 am.
#421956 - 03/02/12 1:53 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Just seen your pictures now pre unit , the first picture of the triton with no fuel tank on it is the business, especially the exhaust down pipes. Its exactly what i want to build , twin front disc brakes and everything. I think the rear set footrests are a bit to rearset though !

Back to the endless questions , do tridents need head steadies ? I am sure i have seen some trident specials that don't have them , did the originals have them ? I need to know as i am in the process of doing some welding on the frame , spreading the bottom rails to let the sump drop in , thats another question , does the trident engine sit centrally in the frame or will it have to be offset to one side or the other ? I know its a long shot but someone might know.
Thanks

#421974 - 03/02/12 4:23 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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The engine drive sprocket is 2.72" from the engine centreline. You should be able to work out the engine position from where your rear sprocket sits.
The stock bike has a head steady. The racers had a cross brace that picked up the intake rockerbox bolts and the frame side rails. If you have a flexible frame you might not want one. On dirt tracker twins they frequently left them off because the frame tweaked the motor loosing power.
On the rearsets, you want them where you can lift yourself off the seat with your feet without having to use the bars for balance.

#422022 - 03/02/12 1:25 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: DMadigan]  
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Vic. Australia
Originally Posted By: DMadigan
The engine drive sprocket is 2.72" from the engine centreline.

That dimension must surely be the inner face of the sprocket.If the sprocket is 0.350" wide,that would put the chain centreline at 2.895" from frame centre.

#422045 - 03/02/12 3:29 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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No, the centreline of the sprocket to the centreline of the engine. The triple's engine sprocket is further inboard than a twin's.
The reason that the right inner head bolt holes in the rockerboxes are larger diameter than the others is so the bolt can be tilted to clear the backbone because the engine is mounted to the left of centre of the frame. Probably the consequence of using the dry clutch behind the chainwheel. If they had used the usual wet clutch then they would have had to use a much wider rear tyre or shift the engine to the right. Neither would have been acceptable to the buying public. The Quadrant four cylinder was extremely offset to the right to keep the engine sprocket in line with the skinny rear tyre.

#422081 - 03/02/12 6:43 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: DMadigan]  
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Hi Dave,

Originally Posted By: DMadigan
The Quadrant four cylinder was extremely offset to the right to keep the engine sprocket in line with the skinny rear tyre.

Sort of. At the risk of repeating a lot of what you probably know already ...

The 'Quadrent' (sic - derived from 'Trid-ent') was simply a proof-of-concept by Doug Hele's team for Dennis Poore. As such, it was built from as many standard triple components - often around already from previous projects - as possible, modified only if necessary. Thus, the Quadrent cycle parts are R3, and most of the bottom end - including the gearbox - is standard triple.

So what would've been a standard triple centre crankcase section sits in the standard place in the standard R3 frame. The drive-side crankcase section is standard triple, as are the primary components and clutch, and the standard 5-speed gearbox is in the standard position in the centre crankcase section. So the primary and final drives all line up with no more work than is required on any triple.

The fourth cylinder was added on the timing side by first bolting on a modified timing-side crankcase section to the standard centre crankcase section, then bolting a standard timing-side crankcase section outboard of the modified one. That's why the engine appears "offset to the right"; it made little enough financial and engineering sense to have built the triple bottom ends from so many individual castings; it would've been plain ridiculous to have built a production four from even more.

Fwiw, when George Pooley built his 'Quadrent', he used two centre crankcase sections and centred the whole engine in the frame.

Hth.

Regards,

#422529 - 03/05/12 3:42 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Thanks . I disregarde all the inferior ones .

Triples DONT need head steadies . FEATHERBEDS DO .

The longitudeinal Brakeing and Suspension Motion forces
TWIST across the frame where the down & top tubes cross.

Its a RATHER IMPORTANT fixture .Theres the story of the Manx Vincent & the Toff at Pukekohe. ( I did tell him ) Around about
\the fifth meeting , the front of the frame fell off at about 70 mph in the L.H. sweeper toward the hill.Everyone got a good view
anyway , and he got a round of applause , Im told .

Id use standard 2 to 2 1/2 x the bolt dia as min edge distance ,
Pref 6 mm ( 1/4 in ) plate if Alloy , and you can always trim it back later if its oversize .Will be some good picture of MANX ones in ancient magazine drawings , or elsewhere.
The old shanked bolts / press fit trick for the cross bolts ,
please .

The Wee E 49 , illustrateing theres a wee bit of Energy invovled in optimiseing
exhaust performance .



Open flowing bends as per the Works Triples with 3 - 1 and 30 mm carbs
may well let it breath a little more freely . Straighter front section
parralleling downtubes would be indicative of a tidy mind .
Some Collectors are shallow angle with sectored central toungue, to maintain
velocity to secondary system . If you can get the heat envigorateing there ,
as per the 132 mph record BSA , (see the heat patterns ) optimum top end results .

Highly adviseable to run chokes or enricher for jetting procedure .IF the power increases
applying choke , YOURE TO LEAN . Cut Immediately . If it slows , youre safer , To rich .

( Rover 1950 / 51 ' 75 ' jet adjusting proceedure, per manual )Run @ full throttle @ operateing temperature, stable . Apply some choke .DYNO's typically give LEANER than
required jetting . As they arnt quite pulling there weight , drag , air & other things .

Last edited by Pre Unit; 03/05/12 10:29 am.
#453926 - 09/11/12 2:33 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: Pre Unit]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 106
kootbiker Offline
BritBike Forum member
kootbiker  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 106
British Columbia Canada
Does anyone out there know how to access the info for the oil gallery mods for older t150's to upgrade to t160 specs? Does the oil pump also need upgrading?

#454071 - 09/12/12 9:06 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: Stuart]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 33
snibor Offline
BritBike Forum member
snibor  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 33
Brisbane Australia
Hi

yep all the bits and pieces scavenged from other projects ...
The chassis for the factory quadrent was reportedly stolen from the double over head cam Rocket 3 project ... hence why the factory DOHC R3 engine which still exists is now installed in a chassis of unknown origin ..

HTH
steve

#458664 - 10/14/12 3:47 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: Stuart]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6
T Gregory Offline
BritBike Forum member
T Gregory  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6
London
I went for the T150v 1000 norman hyde Road kit. At first I had head gasket problems & oil leaks. I then WellSeal'd everything & that seems to have cured the problem. I also flowed the T160 head. Oil seals on the inlet guides & solid tappets. Standard carbs (bigger jets) Standard cams. Had to buy a new modified lay shaft (P&M). The older version the dog broke up. P&M clutch. I am quite happy with the overall performance. Often thought about an oil conversion. I would also have to increase the passages through the Hyde Norton external oil filter.

Last edited by T Gregory; 10/14/12 11:36 pm.
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