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Got any idea what this is? #452961
09/05/12 4:20 am
09/05/12 4:20 am
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breeze1954 Offline OP
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Hi Guys, Iíve been trying to clean up around here a bit and this little motorís been setting around for quite a while.
A little history: It came from an old guy I knew from around the old shop I worked at as a young pup. He was into Brit and euro bikes in the old days and his son was too but his son was killed in the very early 70s on a Norton. When the old fella passed in the 80s (he was in his 80s too) his grandson leveled his old shop but figured I'd want them so brought me a couple truck load of parts that where in it before he did. This motor was with those parts, so 60s, 70s something it looks but it could be from anything as far as I know! That old bird liked them all!
I took it to the Ohio BSA rally this year but no one that looked at it there was sure what it was either. There was a guess or two and some ideas but no one was sure. It maybe a euro of some kind?
So I though Iíd drag it to the pub to discuss it a bit. Maybe someone will know, Someone may have a use for it even, got any ideas?









It does have what looks like a cast number and marini-farrini or something like that above the countershaft but can't make it out clear.


Also has this horse mark on the sidecase.



Last edited by breeze1954; 09/05/12 3:31 pm.

Nothing ticks you off more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong!

Ride Safe When You Can; Tim

Small print Disclaimer: I am not responsible for spelling, grammar or political correctness. Actually IĎm not very responsible at all!
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Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #452973
09/05/12 6:32 am
09/05/12 6:32 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,136
Derbyshire UK
BeezaBryan Offline

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That is an Italian engine Tim, looks vaguely familiar but what?

In the 50s & 60s some Italian car manufacturers also made bikes eg Ferrari (prancing horse badge) and Maserati.
The flywheel magneto looks Magneti Marelli.
Although right hand kick start is unusual for Italy there were some small 2 strokes made that way.
Given a little more time I will look a bit farther if no one has come up with anything like an answer
Right now I have home jobs to do then get the Infamous Enfield & the canvas hovel ready for a weekend expedition bigt


Blessed are the curious for they shall have adventures

"He knows not where he's going,
For the ocean will decide,
Its not the destination,
It's the glory of the ride‚ÄĚ
(Edward Monkton, Zen Dog)

Bryan



Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: BeezaBryan] #453044
09/05/12 3:30 pm
09/05/12 3:30 pm
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breeze1954 Offline OP
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Thanks Bryan and anyone else who might have some info to add. pint I just have the damnedest time when the curiosity gets on me. And when no one at the rally knew either, well then it was worse.
The motor on an early 70s Cimatti looks awful close but no horse and I couldnít really see the rear motor mounts either.
Iíll just keep looking and asking but I am finding out, it is also a very cool door stop. laughing


Nothing ticks you off more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong!

Ride Safe When You Can; Tim

Small print Disclaimer: I am not responsible for spelling, grammar or political correctness. Actually IĎm not very responsible at all!
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453056
09/05/12 5:05 pm
09/05/12 5:05 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,107
Westminster, MD, USA
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J. Charles Smith Offline
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Westminster, MD, USA
Does it maybe say "Motori Minarelli" on the engine? MM supplied engines for many of the small Italian manufacturers.

Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453060
09/05/12 5:28 pm
09/05/12 5:28 pm
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 884
Earth
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rick e. Offline
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Earth
Bronco minibike engine from the 60'S, my guess....


"Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
Carbon monoxide making sure it's effective...
----THE CLASH-----

Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453061
09/05/12 5:32 pm
09/05/12 5:32 pm
Joined: Mar 2002
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rick e. Offline
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Earth
http://jleibovitch.tripod.com/id126.htm

something like one of these


"Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
Carbon monoxide making sure it's effective...
----THE CLASH-----

Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453071
09/05/12 6:31 pm
09/05/12 6:31 pm
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,179
Western Washington State (USA)
Barb Offline
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Hi Guys,

Well, looking at the Dec., 1968 issue of Cycle World, I found the "M.B.". It has the correct head fin pattern, but down where the horse is on the case, this has "Beta".

That's the closest so far. The search continues......


Barb (Three MustGetBeers)
"Midnight girl in a sunset town.."

Britney the B44
Bella the '69 T120
Pip the Triumph (I have "Great Expectations!")
Jaelith the '77 XS650/chair
The unnamed '79 XS650 with...potential
Millie the R80 BMW--she's "Thoroughly Modern"
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: Barb] #453074
09/05/12 6:52 pm
09/05/12 6:52 pm
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breeze1954 Offline OP
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rick e.
Thanks for the idea and link. I didnít see one exactly like it there yet but close and so Iíll look some more just in case.

Charles
Thanks, it could be, I will have another closer look when I get home tonight and let you know.

Thanks Barb, Iíll see if I canít look that up too. I think Charles maybe right, that the Italians made a bunch of the same thing with different markings for whatever badge it was going to. Iím hoping the horse will shine a little light though, cause itís not quite the same as on the Broncos.


Nothing ticks you off more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong!

Ride Safe When You Can; Tim

Small print Disclaimer: I am not responsible for spelling, grammar or political correctness. Actually IĎm not very responsible at all!
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453089
09/05/12 7:55 pm
09/05/12 7:55 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,129
Kent
KarlB Offline
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KarlB
Wondering what the next project will be!
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: KarlB] #453095
09/05/12 8:43 pm
09/05/12 8:43 pm
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Thanks for helping Karl, Itís a lot like it I know, but the markings on the side case are all raised on this bronco but on my motor the oval is reassessed then only the horse is raised. Plus the horse stickers and markings on all the broncos Iíve looked at are going to the left and the one on my motor is headed right. Maybe an early one and they changed? I donít know but the one in your picture is going right, however it is still raised.
Ah, the mystery of old machines. pint

beerchug

Last edited by breeze1954; 09/05/12 8:45 pm.

Nothing ticks you off more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong!

Ride Safe When You Can; Tim

Small print Disclaimer: I am not responsible for spelling, grammar or political correctness. Actually IĎm not very responsible at all!
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453096
09/05/12 8:47 pm
09/05/12 8:47 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,129
Kent
KarlB Offline
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I think that was a generic engine made to be used in lots of different mopeds, a bit like some early British two strokes...


KarlB
Wondering what the next project will be!
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: J. Charles Smith] #453140
09/06/12 1:14 am
09/06/12 1:14 am
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Well went out and took a little acid solution to the motor and the words and cast #s by the countershaft are,
MORINI FRANCO
26 Ė 5013
I also found a raised area kind of like the vin area on a 71 A65, but it is in the back on top in front of the rear motor mount. Cleaned it up and clear as a bell, ( 41 ) whatever that means. So tomorrow I guess I search Morini Franco and look for the horse!

beerchug


Nothing ticks you off more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong!

Ride Safe When You Can; Tim

Small print Disclaimer: I am not responsible for spelling, grammar or political correctness. Actually IĎm not very responsible at all!
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453169
09/06/12 7:44 am
09/06/12 7:44 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,136
Derbyshire UK
BeezaBryan Offline

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Blessed are the curious for they shall have adventures

"He knows not where he's going,
For the ocean will decide,
Its not the destination,
It's the glory of the ride‚ÄĚ
(Edward Monkton, Zen Dog)

Bryan



Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: BeezaBryan] #453223
09/06/12 4:27 pm
09/06/12 4:27 pm
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,951
Ohio
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Rickman Offline
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Ohio
...I was going to say Moto Beta.. The raised portion of the fins at the rear of the head gave me that clue...

Cimati? Gilera? Minareli? So many others were out there...

KarlB, uhmm, what I know about mopeds, really, VERY little, but I thought mopeds were pedal operated to start? Like in bicycle pedals???
I don't see a pedal system on this engine? So, I don't think it's a moped engine... But, European versions of mopeds may be different???
I see that the kick start lever is NOT in line with the shift lever, or the countershaft... So there is no through shaft for a pedal arrangement...
Brett

Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: Rickman] #453225
09/06/12 4:56 pm
09/06/12 4:56 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,277
North Carolina
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Gordon Gray Offline
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Gordon Gray  Offline
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North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Rickman
...snip..... but I thought mopeds were pedal operated to start? Like in bicycle pedals???
I don't see a pedal system on this engine? So, I don't think it's a moped engine... snip....Brett


Mopeds do have pedals...or they're not mopeds. But...they don't always have to be part of the engine. I'm kinda/sorta into Puch mopeds and their pedals are a part of the frame and spin the rear wheel...which in turn turns the engine over.

Useless information, I know....sorry.....GG

Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453229
09/06/12 5:17 pm
09/06/12 5:17 pm
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Posts: 2,129
Kent
KarlB Offline
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Mopeds here in the UK used to have to have pedals then they changed the law and instead limited them to 30mph. The reason I know this is because I had a moped with pedals that was way faster than my richer budies new mopeds without...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped


KarlB
Wondering what the next project will be!
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453230
09/06/12 5:27 pm
09/06/12 5:27 pm
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Kent
KarlB Offline
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It could be a Broncco Apache 100 with its cylinder head on back to front!

http://fantichistisettanta.forumfree.it/?t=44717224

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/motorcycle/morini/morini-apache-bronco-dirt-bike-3/

That has the same engine cover...


KarlB
Wondering what the next project will be!
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: KarlB] #453231
09/06/12 5:34 pm
09/06/12 5:34 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,277
North Carolina
G
Gordon Gray Offline
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Gordon Gray  Offline
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G

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Posts: 4,277
North Carolina
Originally Posted By: KarlB
Mopeds here in the UK used to have to have pedals then they changed the law and instead limited them to 30mph. The reason I know this is because I had a moped with pedals that was way faster than my richer budies new mopeds without...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped


Yep...Good ole wikipedia.

Here in the USA....a moped has pedals...no matter how fast it goes or where it was made. The laws differ from state to state when it comes to tags, insurance, helmets, and in some states you can't ride them on some roads.

Mopeds became popular here in the states during the 70s when the gas crunch was going on and people purchased them because of their gas mileage. (100mpg) Most of the mopeds sold here , by law had a top speed of 30mph.

A noped (no I'm not kidding) is a moped type bike but has no starting pedals....it uses a kickstart engine.

A scooter is a completely different type of bike altogether....but a LOT of people call them mopeds because they just don't know any better.

Okay....enough useless information....Morini Franco engines were used in a LOT of different bikes.

Gordon in NC

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 09/06/12 5:40 pm.
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453232
09/06/12 5:37 pm
09/06/12 5:37 pm
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Posts: 884
Earth
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rick e. Offline
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Earth
I also remember adverts from 60/70's that you could buy 'real' engine/gearbox (unit) for your DIY mini-bikes, instead of those Briggs mower-type lumps ....

This could be one.


"Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
Carbon monoxide making sure it's effective...
----THE CLASH-----

Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: KarlB] #453233
09/06/12 5:47 pm
09/06/12 5:47 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,962
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Originally Posted By: KarlB
Mopeds here in the UK used to have to have pedals then they changed the law and instead limited them to 30mph. The reason I know this is because I had a moped with pedals that was way faster than my richer budies new mopeds without...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped


The law in Virginia has changed over the years because when it was unspecific, people were abusing it. Used to be we'd call them "Dewies", because most of them were ridden by people who had lost their license for "driving under the influence". Also, it's hard for a cop to tell if someone running 50 MPH was on a hotted up 50cc bike or not.

So now it looks like this:

a.Operation of mopeds on any Interstate Highway System is prohibited by Virginia Law. Operation of mopeds on highways and public vehicular areas by persons under age 16 is prohibited by Virginia law.

b.No moped shall be driven on any highway or public vehicular area faster than 35 miles per hour. Operating a moped faster than 35 miles per hour is deemed by Virginia law to be operating a motorcycle, which requires you to title and register the moped as a motorcycle and obtain a motorcycle license.

c.Moped riders must carry some form of identification that includes name, address, and date of birth.

d.Although you do not need a driver's license to operate a moped, you may not operate a moped if you have been declared a habitual offender or your license is suspended or revoked for driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs.


So a little tighter than it was ....

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: KarlB] #453238
09/06/12 6:14 pm
09/06/12 6:14 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,277
North Carolina
G
Gordon Gray Offline
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G

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Posts: 4,277
North Carolina
Thanks to Myrons Mopeds in CA....this is all I could dig up on the Morini Franco motorcycle (kick start) and Moped (pedals) engines but this only goes back to the late 70's...which was the hay day for them here in the states.



Lannis....what does Va define as a moped??? Sounds like they include scooters too???

I'm telling ya boys and girls....I don't give a rats arse what "they" say...a moped has pedals....period.

pocket bikes
mini bikes
gopeds
nopeds
scooters
motorized bicycles

They're not the same.....

Gordon

1999 Puch Korado (pedal start)
2001 Puch Korado (kickstart)
1975 Puch "poor man's" Magnum (pedal start)
1974 Murray (Puch powered pedal start)

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 09/06/12 7:12 pm. Reason: i kant spel
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: Gordon Gray] #453240
09/06/12 6:18 pm
09/06/12 6:18 pm
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breeze1954 Offline OP
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I think Karl has found it. After Bryanís and a few other's suggestions, I did some more searching and a phone call or two and have been looking for the Bronco Apache 100. But I could not find a picture as to be sure. Then came Karl, the motor in the one from Karlís second link last post looks identical to mine, (though much better condition of course.) Now I know what my door stop is, I can relax. sleep
http://www.midamericaauctions.com/motorcycle/morini/morini-apache-bronco-dirt-bike-3/


BTW Gordon, I have never believed in useless information. Some I may not have needed or wanted to hear, but never useless! Hey, come to think of it I have a moped I dragged out of the barn when it was falling in and leaned it on a tree up there. I think itís a Sach or some such. Iíll have to go up and get that old thing now I remember where I left it. crazy


Hereís to the solving of the mystery beerchug

Last edited by breeze1954; 09/06/12 6:21 pm.

Nothing ticks you off more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong!

Ride Safe When You Can; Tim

Small print Disclaimer: I am not responsible for spelling, grammar or political correctness. Actually IĎm not very responsible at all!
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: breeze1954] #453241
09/06/12 6:23 pm
09/06/12 6:23 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,277
North Carolina
G
Gordon Gray Offline
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G

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North Carolina
WOW!!!! that's a sweet looking little bike for the early 60S.

Glad you got it figured out. Karl hung in there and came through.... bigt

Hiding my mopeds behind my real bikes....Gordon in NC

Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: Gordon Gray] #453243
09/06/12 6:54 pm
09/06/12 6:54 pm
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Posts: 2,008
Greensboro, NC
Alan_nc Online content
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WOW.....

We are getting strange. I have a CT110 sitting in my drive as I write this.

And and and.....Gordon is trying to figure out how to get more Brit Bikes to Blowing Rock


Alan
Cleared m out....left only
59 BSA Bantam (Trials)
78 Triumph Bonny (UPS)
02 Suzuki GS500
Re: Got any idea what this is? [Re: Gordon Gray] #453251
09/06/12 7:50 pm
09/06/12 7:50 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,962
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Originally Posted By: Gordon Gray


Lannis....what does Va define as a moped??? Sounds like they include scooters too???



Well ... the lawmakers and executive in Virginia are not exactly scooter/moped enthusiasts, and don't have our background in "where" the terminology comes from. No mention of pedals in the legal definition ...

Virginia Code section 46.2-100 defines a moped as a vehicle that:

ētravels on three wheels or less,
ēhas a seat that is no less than 24 inches in height, measured from the ground to the middle of the seat, and
ēhas a gasoline, electric, or hybrid motor that displaces less than 50 cubic centimeters.


How they determine the "displacement" of an electric motor is beyond me. Someone will have to take them to court on that, I suppose!

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
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