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Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win #445522
07/20/12 11:56 pm
07/20/12 11:56 pm
Joined: May 2012
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Texas
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tomgunn Offline OP
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Hey guys:

Anyone know how to pull the crank pinion gear on a 500cc Speed twin? Only about .020 to .030" clearance between gear and crankcase. No room for a puller and no puller thread. Afraid to press crank through -- may break crankcase?

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Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: tomgunn] #445540
07/21/12 4:55 am
07/21/12 4:55 am
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Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
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Is there a thread on the outside of the crank pinion?If there is,use the cam wheel puller.

Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #445543
07/21/12 5:36 am
07/21/12 5:36 am
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Magnetoman Online content

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Originally Posted By: Pete R
Is there a thread on the outside of the crank pinion?If there is,use the cam wheel puller.
According to Instruction manual No. 4, "The tool part number Z.89 shown in Fig. 11 is necessary for the removal of these [camshaft and crankshaft] pinions." Fig. 12 shows the puller in use on one of the camshaft pinions, but the nut on the crankshaft pinion obscures the view of it. It's been many years since I had my Triumph 500's engine apart so I don't remember this detail but, as Pete R. wrote, the manual clearly says the same puller works on both.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 07/21/12 5:36 am.
Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: tomgunn] #445550
07/21/12 7:10 am
07/21/12 7:10 am
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There's a puller made for Triumph crank pinions, isn't there? Google say there is. It has thin round jaws to get behind the pinion.

Anyway, can't you heat the crankcase to let the bearing and pinion slide through when you lift the crankcase off the crankshaft? Then you might have room to attack the bearing and pinion. In fact, I think the manual says all this.

Last edited by triton thrasher; 07/21/12 7:11 am.

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Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: tomgunn] #445554
07/21/12 9:24 am
07/21/12 9:24 am
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
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dave jones Offline
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I had a similar problem on my 67 because the previous owner had left the clamping washer out. This meant that there was no room for a puller. As Triton describes and because I was stripping the engine anyway I heated the case and just took the whole assembly out and then removed the pinion and old bearing.
Dave

Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #445565
07/21/12 1:02 pm
07/21/12 1:02 pm
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tomgunn Offline OP
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As I said in my post, there is no thread for a puller on the crank pinion gear, and no room to get a puller behind it. The gear outside diameter is larger than the hole diameter in the crankcase. Thus the challenge....

Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: tomgunn] #445567
07/21/12 1:32 pm
07/21/12 1:32 pm
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I'd like to see a photo.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: tomgunn] #445586
07/21/12 3:01 pm
07/21/12 3:01 pm
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Allan Offline
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If you can remove cam gears, then you may be able to clamp a u-bolt around the crank gear to gain enough grip to pull gear with a regular jaw type puller. Be sure to wrap some soft aluminum or copper around gear to protect teeth. Allan


member GABMA(Greater Atlanta British Motorcycle Association)
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Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: tomgunn] #445601
07/21/12 6:21 pm
07/21/12 6:21 pm
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
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dave jones Offline
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Sorry, I thought the gear fitted through the hole on the pre units too.

The crank pinion isn't nearly as tight as the cam gears on a unit so maybe the trick with the clamp would work if pre units are the same!

Dave

Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: tomgunn] #445604
07/21/12 6:57 pm
07/21/12 6:57 pm
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Magnetoman Online content

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Originally Posted By: tomgunn
As I said in my post, there is no thread for a puller on the crank pinion gear, and no room to get a puller behind it.
Sorry, my fault for not noticing it was a '39 Speed Twin rather than a later one.

Instruction manual No. 11 that covers 1945-55 Speed Twins shows a rather special Crankshaft Pinion Removal Tool Z60. "Crankshaft Pinion: Again a special tool must be employed to withdraw this gear from the crankshaft." At some point I'll give up and set things up to let me upload images, but for now you'll have to settle for a description.

The figure of the puller, and the instructions for its use, show it has two flat jaws, i.e. it sort of looks like a two-jaw puller, but without the hooks at the ends of the jaws. A collar slides down over the jaws to clamp them against the OD of the gear. This clamping action is much the same as on some two- and three-jaw pullers where a separate tapered piece screws into place to keep the jaws from separating. Anyway, since there are no hooks on the jaws of the special puller, only sideways pressure from the collar causes them to grip the gear.

Because the puller relies on only friction to clamp it, it means the gear shouldn't be held too tightly by the crankshaft (it is a straight shaft with a key, not a tapered shaft, so only solidified grunge should be holding it). I suggest trying something as simple as a hose clamp to hold two small pieces of metal (or bolts) against the gear. This would provide the surface you need to grip with the jaws of a standard puller.

Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: dave jones] #445614
07/21/12 9:12 pm
07/21/12 9:12 pm
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Originally Posted By: dave jones
Sorry, I thought the gear fitted through the hole on the pre units too.

Dave


It does.

I don't know about pre-war. That's why a picture would be interesting.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: Magnetoman] #445628
07/22/12 12:35 am
07/22/12 12:35 am
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Posts: 6,739
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I have available to me the 1958-1962 Triumph workshop manual in .pdf and that manual uses tool Z121. Good luck finding one for sale from a vendor! Anyhow, thought I would post a pic.

BTW, I ran into this same problem with a 1961 TR6R I dismantled a few years ago and that timing pinion gear didn't have threads on it either. As far as I know none of the Pre-Unit crankshaft timing pinion gears do. The same timing pinion E1472 was used in the 1939 through 1962.







Originally Posted By: Magnetoman


Instruction manual No. 11 that covers 1945-55 Speed Twins shows a rather special Crankshaft Pinion Removal Tool Z60. "Crankshaft Pinion: Again a special tool must be employed to withdraw this gear from the crankshaft." At some point I'll give up and set things up to let me upload images, but for now you'll have to settle for a description.

The figure of the puller, and the instructions for its use, show it has two flat jaws, i.e. it sort of looks like a two-jaw puller, but without the hooks at the ends of the jaws. A collar slides down over the jaws to clamp them against the OD of the gear. This clamping action is much the same as on some two- and three-jaw pullers where a separate tapered piece screws into place to keep the jaws from separating. Anyway, since there are no hooks on the jaws of the special puller, only sideways pressure from the collar causes them to grip the gear.

Because the puller relies on only friction to clamp it, it means the gear shouldn't be held too tightly by the crankshaft (it is a straight shaft with a key, not a tapered shaft, so only solidified grunge should be holding it). I suggest trying something as simple as a hose clamp to hold two small pieces of metal (or bolts) against the gear. This would provide the surface you need to grip with the jaws of a standard puller.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: Magnetoman] #445629
07/22/12 1:08 am
07/22/12 1:08 am
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Originally Posted By: Magnetoman

Instruction Manual No. 11 that covers 1945-55 Speed Twins shows a rather special Crankshaft Pinion Removal Tool Z60.




Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

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Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: tomgunn] #445654
07/22/12 9:42 am
07/22/12 9:42 am
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When I stripped the motor on my pre-unit I tried to find the correct tool, but they were beyond my price range even if they were available. I made my own puller out of bits I had on hand.

The large washer is 60mm (2 3/8") across with a nut welded to one side and a 16mm (5/8") washer on the other - This locates on the nose of the crankshaft as the hole in the large washer was only 1/2". Two 6.2mm (1/4") holes are drilled opposite each other at 45mm (1 3/4") centres



The unit has to be dismantled and the legs (6mm bolts with the heads ground down) hooked under the crankshaft pinion. The large washer slides over them and it's all held together with the wing nuts. The centre bolt is tightened and the pinion is pulled off the shaft.

Sorry if this is a little long winded or hard to understand but it is a viable solution to the problem.


"Live the life you love, find a god you trust and don't take it all too seriously"

Pre-units rule!

Mid fifties Triumph T100
Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: tomgunn] #445659
07/22/12 10:07 am
07/22/12 10:07 am
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A large self-grip (Mole wrench) holding the pinion, with strips of mild steel protecting the teeth, might give you something to get the legs of a puller onto. I mean hook the legs onto the outside of the self-grip.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: triton thrasher] #446006
07/24/12 10:22 pm
07/24/12 10:22 pm
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Austin, Texas, USA
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Brid Caveney Offline
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Tom -- BCS show tool Z60 as 222-158/A, crank pinion puller Tri early.
If it's not A65's causing trouble it's those darned Trumpets!!
See you later,
Brid.

Re: Crank pinion removal -- 1939 Triumph Speed win [Re: Brid Caveney] #446492
07/28/12 12:14 pm
07/28/12 12:14 pm
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Posts: 16
Texas
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tomgunn Offline OP
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Just to update everyone who was nice enough to try to help me with this problem....Could not get a Z60 puller. I doubt if it would have done the job as it only clamped on the side of the gear teeth, not behind them. To reiterate, the crank pinion was larger than the case diameter, had no puller thread, and less than 0.010" clearance behind it.
I got it off by having a special puller made and spot welded to the crank pinion. Even then it was a tough pull.

The other 1939 speed twin engine I am working on had puller threads on its crank pinion. Even with that, it was a tough pull with heat.

Many thanks to all who replied to my plea for help.


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