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Re: A65 knocking, running hot [Re: dirtymartini] #443357
07/05/12 10:00 pm
07/05/12 10:00 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,813
Seattle
Alex Offline

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Alex  Offline

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Posts: 7,813
Seattle
I used to do the water thing...then I saw what the chunks of carbon that got pinned between the valve and seat did.

But yea, the stuff on the pistons mostly comes off with brillo pads or steel wool. Tough stuff may require careful application of a wood chisel or knife, but be careful, don't gouge the aluminum.


A smattering:
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'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
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'37 Rudge Special
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Re: A65 knocking, running hot [Re: dirtymartini] #443365
07/05/12 10:43 pm
07/05/12 10:43 pm
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
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Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
Originally Posted By: dirtymartini
It doesn't start pinging until the engine is fully warmed up. If it were the AAU springs causing the pinging wouldn't it ping when it's cold?

A hot engine will always detonate more than a cold engine.You can get away with a few more degrees advance when the engine is cold,or even not being thrashed enough to get fully hot.

If you have standard AAU springs,adjust the length to get full advance at 3000 rpm.A 0.010" adjustment to both springs will change it by about 1000 rpm,so measure carefully.With one slightly stronger spring (higher spring rate,not greater pre-load),you could get it to full advance at 3500 rpm and still have it fully retarded until just above idle.

The later ('67 onward) AAU with 160 degree dwell is better.The early 86 degree AAU can cause problems.

Re: A65 knocking, running hot [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #443381
07/06/12 12:16 am
07/06/12 12:16 am
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
G
Gary Szucs Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
Peak of the riding season...and I'm ordering a top end kit.

Re: A65 knocking, running hot [Re: dirtymartini] #443572
07/07/12 9:21 am
07/07/12 9:21 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,857
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,857
Sydney Australia
redex or injector cleaner will work wonders.

I have used the water method for years although it was generally used on 2 strokes.
You need to run the engine @ about 1/3 throttle.
Spray the water into the mouth of the carb with a spray bottle.
In the past I have even used a water pistol but they tend to squirt in too much water.

A note of warning also.
Water will strip the oil film off the walls of the cylinder so after you have finished make sure you go for a short ride some where to get the oil film back again.
Some times you can loose compression for the same reason and will need to either push start or squirt some light oil down the plug hole.


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Re: A65 knocking, running hot [Re: Mr Mike] #444257
07/12/12 12:13 am
07/12/12 12:13 am
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
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Gary Szucs Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
Originally Posted By: Mr Mike
I've had no luck with octane boosters either. 110 octane racing fuel mixed 1:3 with pump gas does wonders. Also the Boyer electronic ignition has a more gentle acceleration curve and helped me a lot. But the motor is prone to "pinking" because of its head design and the lower octane fuels that replaced the 96 octsne leaded stuff we had in the sixties. If I had to rebuild I would go sith lower comprssion.

Mr Mike
As a experiment I tried the 110 octane racing gas with lead at $7.11 per gallon. I mixed it with 93 octane BP unleaded 50/50. What a difference. It only pinked once after a 80mph run and then had to stop for a traffic signal on a side road. It pinked when I left the light, but never did it again the rest of the ride. I did buy a top end kit from British Only, but I would like to stay on the road till riding season is over. My 71 Lightning is also running a Boyer ignition.

Re: A65 knocking, running hot [Re: dirtymartini] #444310
07/12/12 12:20 pm
07/12/12 12:20 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,813
Seattle
Alex Offline

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Alex  Offline

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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,813
Seattle
Was the race gas leaded? You don't need much tetraethyl lead...it is a very effective knock inhibiter. I've had very similar experiences with even smaller ratios of leaded gas to unleaded.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: A65 knocking, running hot [Re: Alex] #444391
07/12/12 7:34 pm
07/12/12 7:34 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
G
Gary Szucs Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
Originally Posted By: Alex
Was the race gas leaded? You don't need much tetraethyl lead...it is a very effective knock inhibiter. I've had very similar experiences with even smaller ratios of leaded gas to unleaded.
Yes, the race gas has lead in it. I will try a 1/3 race gas, 2/3 unleaded 93 octane ratio and see what happens. I know at some point I will have to remove the head and clean everything up and soften the sharp edges, but I would like to delay it as long as I can. As long as there is no pinking I will just ride it. BTW the increase in performance was immediate. I remember buying lead substitute back years ago. I don't know if you still can and don't know how it would work with todays gas. Probably best to just use the race gas and mix it.

Re: A65 knocking, running hot [Re: dirtymartini] #444428
07/13/12 1:07 am
07/13/12 1:07 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
M
Mr Mike Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
Retard the timing just a tad and a 3:1 mix will work. If you are not out on long rides where you don't have to fuel up, wait till winter to do any work. The 110 racing fuel I used was also leaded. I buy it a shop near the local race track. Remember to keep the revs up. The stock gearing is a little high on the A65 so on takeoff if it is at all spirited will result in pinging.

The stuff smells good too!

Mr Mike

Re: A65 knocking, running hot [Re: dirtymartini] #444432
07/13/12 1:20 am
07/13/12 1:20 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 421
Harveys Lake, PA. USA
dirtymartini Offline OP
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dirtymartini  Offline OP
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Posts: 421
Harveys Lake, PA. USA
I think I may try the race gas as well. I have been working on another bike so I haven't had a chance to try anything. I may go to the local airport and try a few gallons of 100LL first. I think it's around $6 a gallon now.



75 Norton Commando Mark II
75 Penton Mint 400
'72 Ossa MAR
Re: A65 knocking, running hot [Re: dirtymartini] #446119
07/25/12 5:09 pm
07/25/12 5:09 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
G
Gary Szucs Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Michigan
Saw this article in Car Craft about pump gas

Pump Gas Blues


Gary Palmer; Byron, IL: With today's turbo and blower production cars requiring 91-octane or better, I need some guidance on gasoline. My past experience buying premium fuel has not been good. Several years ago, I was told that regular automotive gasoline has about a 30- to 60-day life expectancy before its properties deteriorate to the point of being noticeable. How true is this? I know the adage of buying your gas at the busiest gas station, but how many people are buying premium? Do current cars adjust boost and timing to correct for the fuel in the tank? What about water/ethanol injection? How do you set up a water/ethanol system and what are the limitations?

Jeff Smith: I spoke with my pal Tim Wusz at Rockett Brand Racing Fuel, and he confirmed that pump gasoline is designed to be stable for about that 30- to 60-day time period. The deterioration of the fuel begins with a gradual evaporation of what are called the aromatics or the light ends of the fuel. Gasoline is a complex blend of several different hydrocarbon chains mixed with a multitude of additives; among them are aromatics that are often associated with higher-octane fuels. These light ends also make up the portion of the fuel that evaporates before the heavier-end components. Losing the lighter ends reduces a fuel's ability to light easily. Keep in mind that most fuels across the country now use 10 percent ethanol as an octane booster instead of ethers like MTBE, which have been removed from gasoline because they have been determined to be carcinogenic.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to generalize because there are dozens of different gasoline formulations used throughout this country. Nevertheless, alcohol-based aromatics are generally considered less stable under long-term storage situations, so it would be best to try and use the fuel as quickly as possible, because allowing the fuel to remain in the tank over the winter, for example, could cause problems. Alcohol has an affinity for water, which means that alcohol attracts water out of the air and pulls it into suspension. The water then mixes with the alcohol and causes the mixture to create what is called phase separation, which separates the water/alcohol from the gasoline. None of this is good, and this process occurs when gasoline is allowed to sit in a vented tank. In this situation, a fuel-stabilizing additive like Sta-bil is a good idea because it prevents phase separation. It's also a good idea to keep the tank either as full or as low as possible if you plan to store the car for a long period of time, as this will reduce the formation of water.

According to Wusz, olefins in gasoline are the real troublemakers when it comes to long-term storage. Olefins represent a larger percentage of pump gasoline and serve an important function, but they are also the least stable additives and tend to oxidize, eventually converting to gum and varnish. Wusz says the amount of olefins is one of the main differences between high-quality race gas and pump gas, with the better race fuels having a lower percentage of olefins. This is one reason race gas can be stored in a sealed container in a cool, indoor location for as long as two years with no fear of degradation. Wusz also mentioned that even when pump gas degrades and loses some of its aromatics, that generally has a very minor effect on its octane rating. It's also important to note that octane rating on gas pumps is a combination of research and motor-octane ratings, and Wusz emphasizes that of the two, the motor-octane rating is the more important to a street engine under load. To further emphasize this point, most octane boosters you buy in a can add only minor numbers to the research octane number. When octane boosters claim an increase of four points, that means a 91-octane fuel improves to 91.4, not 95.

As for your question about whether late-model cars correct air/fuel ratio and timing to compensate for fuel quality, the answer is yes. All late-model engines use feedback air/fuel ratio sensors, and many now use wide-band sensors that are what most performance enthusiasts use to monitor engine performance. This feedback maintains the engine's optimal part- and sometimes full-throttle air/fuel ratio for best fuel mileage and driveability. Detonation sensors are used to help protect engines from harmful knocking if low-quality fuel is used. These sensors detect knock and automatically reduce ignition timing until the knock stops. This allows the engine designer to push the limits of timing, knowing that he has the ability to pull timing back should knock occur. There are also aftermarket knock sensors. We've used a J&S sensor on some dyno testing, which worked very well. The company even has a unit designed for late-model engines with distributorless ignition systems that uses smart coils and includes a boost and nitrous-retard feature.

Water injection might be a reasonable solution for mild detonation problems for users currently mixing race and pump gas to raise the octane. Mixing fuel works directly along octane lines (half 91 plus half 100 will produce 95.5- octane fuel), but this tends to be expensive. Race gasoline on the West Coast is around $8 per gallon, and even mixing it at 25 percent with pump gas will increase the cost of fuel to roughly $6.50 per gallon. Water injection is most commonly associated with supercharged and turbocharged engines as a way to combat detonation, but water can also be employed on high- compression, normally aspirated engines as well. Many enthusiasts believe water (and water/alcohol) injection is equivalent to pouring water on a flame. While in one sense this is true, the more accurate evaluation is that small quantities of water work to reduce the extreme peak cylinder pressures associated with detonation. So in a general sense, the water does not put the fire out but instead reduces those harmful peak cylinder pressures that contribute to the "rattle."



Read more: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccr...l#ixzz21eg6su7b

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