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valve job ? #370773
04/29/11 4:45 pm
04/29/11 4:45 pm
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6
wisconsin
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muzleldr Offline OP
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wisconsin
how can I tell if my triumph 650 head valves are to deep in the head. do I need new valve seats.
how can I tell if I have to replace the valve seats do to having to many valve jobs?

Last edited by muzleldr; 04/30/11 7:46 am.
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Re: valve job ? [Re: muzleldr] #370874
04/30/11 12:11 pm
04/30/11 12:11 pm
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Seattle
Alex Offline

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Depending how bad they are they are, it's possible to blend sunken seats into the combustion chamber. I've done this successfully on a number of heads but it requires a fair amount of hand work, so a lot of shops prolly don't want to do that.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: valve job ? [Re: Alex] #371117
05/02/11 4:15 am
05/02/11 4:15 am
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Posts: 6
wisconsin
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muzleldr Offline OP
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thank you for your reply.
I was hopeful for a measurement.

Last edited by muzleldr; 05/02/11 4:17 am.
Re: valve job ? [Re: muzleldr] #371267
05/03/11 4:14 am
05/03/11 4:14 am
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Vic. Australia
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Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
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If this head is '72 or earlier,put a valve in the head up against it's seat then measure from the valve-tip down to the head casting right beside the valve guide.
It could measure as much as 1-3/4", and still be usable.At this measurement,the valve seats would be sunk about 1/16".Your compression would be down from 9:1,to a little over 8:1.You would need shims under the lower valve collars,to get the correct valve spring pre-load.
Rocker geometry would still be good;better than when the head was new.
If the head was '73 or later it could have the cast boss for a 10th bolt-hole,like T140.In this case the measurement from valve-tip to head casting would be 3/32" less.

Last edited by Pete R; 05/03/11 9:35 am. Reason: 1/16"
Re: valve job ? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #371273
05/03/11 6:01 am
05/03/11 6:01 am
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wisconsin
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muzleldr Offline OP
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wisconsin
thank you very much this is what I was looking for.
its a 69 head

Re: valve job ? [Re: muzleldr] #371387
05/03/11 7:53 pm
05/03/11 7:53 pm
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1
Texas, USA
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2511fj Offline
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I was looking for the same info as you. Maybe we'll both get an answer.
Cheers


I keep an old valve wrench in my saddle bags at all times.
Re: valve job ? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #441181
06/20/12 10:30 pm
06/20/12 10:30 pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,561
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Offline

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Originally Posted by Pete R
If this head is '72 or earlier,put a valve in the head up against it's seat then measure from the valve-tip down to the head casting right beside the valve guide.
It could measure as much as 1-3/4", and still be usable.At this measurement,the valve seats would be sunk about 1/16".Your compression would be down from 9:1,to a little over 8:1.You would need shims under the lower valve collars,to get the correct valve spring pre-load.
Rocker geometry would still be good;better than when the head was new.
If the head was '73 or later it could have the cast boss for a 10th bolt-hole,like T140.In this case the measurement from valve-tip to head casting would be 3/32" less.

O.K., having seen this first-hand now, I have some further questions. Are you out there Pete?

First, let me say mea culpa, because I have read this forum, was properly warned, and foolishly a friend and I did the head work on our own anyway. Can I salvage what's been done?

Model: '64 TR6
So far: Replaced valve guides, recut seats with Neway cutter to cleanup, and created 3-angle valve seat. New valves lapped in lightly. Zero leakdown with head bolted to air test plate. This is with valves in place, but no springs or keepers installed.
Problem: Due to valve guide non-alignment with old seats, had to remove what I would call excess material from seats to achieve cleanup with first cutter. Now with valves in position, stem heights (from valve tip to head casting surface adjacent to the valve guide) measure 1.755, 1.749, 1.751, 1.728 (Differences due to cutting each seat only until cleanup was achieved.) Using the best (shortest) of these measurements, the installed spring height will be 1.390 inches, this coming from meauring from top face of lower spring cup to bottom spring face of the top retainer. With new standard valve springs at 1.390 inches, the spring force is only 49 lbs. To bring this to the desired 65 lbs. for an intake valve requires .080 shim. I think that would work O.K., because the outer shoulder of the valve guide (which centers the lower spring seat and the inside valve spring) is .185 tall. The problem comes in shimming the worst case (longest) dimension, which would require .165 shim. Since the lower spring seat is .091 thick, the bottom of the inside valve spring is now free to move around (it's above the shoulder of the valve guide).

It is difficult to take some of these measurements, even with good instruments, so I bought some shim stock from McMaster Carr and assembled the valves as per my calculations. Then I used Pete's bathroom scale method to see if I was close to the desired 65 lbs for the intake valves and 75 lbs for the exhaust. It was right, as per a brand new pair of digital scales.

Possible corrective actions?:

Use heavier rate valve springs to compensate for too long installed height (and thus eliminate the shims)?

Get special-made (thicker) retainers for top of valve springs (to take up the extra length witout using excessively thick shims)?

Search out someone to remove my seats and guides and weld up the mess and reprofile the chamber and machine anew with a Newen???

Jump off the bridge?


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: valve job ? [Re: muzleldr] #441191
06/20/12 11:17 pm
06/20/12 11:17 pm
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Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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The 70-6439 bottom spring cup used on later models (up through 1972) measures .225 in., give or take.


Re: valve job ? [Re: muzleldr] #441231
06/21/12 5:12 am
06/21/12 5:12 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content

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Nice thing about these pre units is that you can frequently install larger vavles and get the stem height back to stock without any other expensive work. Can't say what is possible on that late models stuff.....
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: valve job ? [Re: John Healy] #441232
06/21/12 5:26 am
06/21/12 5:26 am
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Bless you, John. I was totally unaware of that. That could be the solution to my problem. That later cup would then be .134 thicker than what I have.

It would also mean that the bottom spring cup would be taller than the shoulder on the valve guide (which is .185 tall). Is it any problem if the bottom end of the inside valve spring is above the shoulder of the valve guide? It appears to me that the outer lip of the bottom spring cup keeps the outer valve spring centered, and the shoulder on the valve guide keeps the inner spring centered. But perhaps the outer valve spring centers the inner spring sufficiently?


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: valve job ? [Re: TR6Ray] #441233
06/21/12 5:35 am
06/21/12 5:35 am
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Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
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If you use the good '68 onward springs (green spot outer,red spot inner),you need the '68-'72 lower collars John mentioned.

They are 0.165" thick at the inner spring seat,and 1/16" higher at the outer spring seat.That 1/16" step will locate the OD of the inner spring.

Everything else should be good enough.A little less compression from valve seat recession is not the end of the world.You could c.c. the heads and sink one valve further,if you're fussy.

Re: valve job ? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #441234
06/21/12 5:38 am
06/21/12 5:38 am
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Originally Posted By: HawaiianTiger
Nice thing about these pre units is that you can frequently install larger vavles and get the stem height back to stock without any other expensive work. Can't say what is possible on that late models stuff.....
Bill
Bill, believe it or not, I already went for the later, larger valves. I also bought the tool with the threaded rod to draw the guides into the head, hoping to aim them toward the existing valve seats. I ended up doing a lot of tedious manual work after the new seats were cut, to blend them back to the combustion chamber. It's been a learning experience for sure, but I guess that's what I was after.

There's still the likely trouble with valve train geometry, but I'm not there yet. Like Scarlett said in GWTW, I'll worry about that tomorrow!

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: valve job ? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #441235
06/21/12 5:43 am
06/21/12 5:43 am
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Originally Posted By: Pete R
If you use '68 onward springs (green spot outer,red spot inner),you need the '68-'72 lower collars John mentioned.

They are 0.165" thick at the inner spring seat,and 1/16" higher at the outer spring seat.That 1/16" step will locate the OD of the inner spring.

Everything else should be good enough.A little less compression from valve seat recession is not the end of the world.You could c.c. the heads and sink one valve further,if you're fussy.
Thanks, Pete. That takes a load off my mind. I do have the green spot outer, and red spot inner springs. Can I still shim if necessary with the later style lower collar, to get proper spring force?


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: valve job ? [Re: TR6Ray] #441236
06/21/12 5:46 am
06/21/12 5:46 am
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You could use 3/32",shim if necessary.I doubt that much will be necessary.

If you've got 5/32" or more between the rocker arm and valve-tip,the geometry will be good enough.That equates to square geometry at mid swing of the rocker.

Re: valve job ? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #441261
06/21/12 1:58 pm
06/21/12 1:58 pm
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Pete and John, thanks again. You guys have pulled my fat out of the fire once again. I just got off the phone with Klempf's, and the lower cups are on their way.

John, I just got to read your excellent article on valve springs in Vintage Bike. That is very timely for me. There is already a wealth of info there -- I will look forward to the rest of the series.

HT, I enjoy your subtle sense of humor -- not many would call a 48 yr old bike "late model stuff", but with your pre-unit experience, you have the credentials to do so.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: valve job ? [Re: Alex] #441484
06/22/12 8:56 pm
06/22/12 8:56 pm
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Nark Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alex
Depending how bad they are they are, it's possible to blend sunken seats into the combustion chamber. I've done this successfully on a number of heads but it requires a fair amount of hand work, so a lot of shops prolly don't want to do that.


You can also use oversized valves, cut the seats larger, AND call this hack job a performance upgrade!

Re: valve job ? [Re: Nark] #441543
06/23/12 2:57 am
06/23/12 2:57 am
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Yeah, well I've already gone to the bigger valves and blended the sunken seats. It really doesn't look as bad as it sounds, except for the issue with the valve spring installed height. I think it'll be O.K., now that I know about the thicker lower cups, which are headed my way. Besides, this just proves that I'm not entirely worthless -- I can always be used as a bad example!


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: valve job ? [Re: TR6Ray] #442079
06/27/12 12:27 am
06/27/12 12:27 am
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Well, we reassembled the head today with the later style lower spring cups. We put it together with no shims at all, and measured the seat pressure with bathroom scales. Came up as follows:

DS inlet: 68 lbs
TS inlet: 65 lbs
DS exhaust: 66 lbs
TS exhaust: 66 lbs

I found this very encouraging, but I guess I still have a couple of questions.

  • Should I call it good, and leave well enough alone, or shim to get the exhaust valve seat pressure closer to 75 lbs?
  • Any ideas where to get proper shims? I have spring steel shims from McMaster Carr, the closest I could find. My current shims are 1.00 O.D. x .75 I.D. The valve guide O.D. is .06 smaller, at .69. Is this extra .06 slop O.K., or something to worry about?


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: valve job ? [Re: TR6Ray] #442108
06/27/12 5:12 am
06/27/12 5:12 am
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You could use a 0.020"-0.040" shim under the lower collars on the exhaust.Fibre washers will work OK. 0.75" ID is about maximum you could use;tighter would be better.
0.020" shim = 4lbs approx.

Re: valve job ? [Re: ] #442149
06/27/12 3:18 pm
06/27/12 3:18 pm
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Originally Posted By: Allan Gill

Also, how do you measure spring pressure with bathroom scales? I can only picture you pressing the cylinder head / valve stem against the scales until the valve budges.


That's exactly it. I use an analog scale as the digital ones can be a PIA to get a reading from. Put a small block of wood on the scale (think of something along the size of a child's building block, zero out the scale with the wood on it if you need to) and angle the head so the valve tip is perpendicular to the scale deck. Place a thumb or finger on the face of the valve and slowly press down until your thumb or finger *just* begins to detect movement in the valve and that should be your spring rate/pressure.

Steve


'77 T140J
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Re: valve job ? [Re: JubeePrince] #442173
06/27/12 6:24 pm
06/27/12 6:24 pm
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+1 on the analog scale, and exactly as Steve described. Using a PITA digital scale, you press down until the valve just unseats, and then you try to "hold that pose" while the damn scale performs its calculation for several seconds. Eventually up pops the reading. Want to recheck it? Wait for the scale to reset and get itself ready for the next weigh-in. If you have an old fashioned analog scale, you can watch the needle climb as you apply more force, and you can get an instant reading as the valve unseats. You can back off a bit and recheck immediately. It is surprisingly repeatable.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: valve job ? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #442174
06/27/12 6:26 pm
06/27/12 6:26 pm
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Originally Posted By: Pete R
You could use a 0.020"-0.040" shim under the lower collars on the exhaust.Fibre washers will work OK. 0.75" ID is about maximum you could use;tighter would be better.
0.020" shim = 4lbs approx.

Thanks, Pete. I'll look some more. I found one thread on here where a man said he found shims with 11/16 I.D., but that was five years ago and he never mentioned the source.

EDIT: I found some proper shims from Alloy-Tech in Tuscola IL, just down the road a piece. They're on the way.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: valve job ? [Re: muzleldr] #443087
07/04/12 2:54 am
07/04/12 2:54 am
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Got a chance to fool with the cyl head some more today. The shims from Alloy Tech were a closer fit around the valve guide. Also, thanks to Allan Gill and Steve's discussion, I changed the way I had been measuring spring force. I had been placing a deep well socket on the bathroom scale and then pushing the top spring collar against the end of the socket. Steve's comment about a child's toy block got me thinking that I really should be pressing directly against the end of the valve stem to check when the valve first unseats. I cut a small block of wood and did it that way. That did affect my measurements slightly. With no shims, I got:

DS inlet: 68 lbs
TS inlet: 65 lbs
DS exhaust: 70 lbs
TS exhaust: 68 lbs

We tried a .030 shim under the T.S. exhaust valve and measured 80 lbs seat pressure. Took that shim out and tried a .015 shim and measured 75 lbs seat pressure. Placed a .015 under the D.S. exhaust valve and got 76 lbs. seat pressure. There's obviously a little bit of human error in my measurements, but I feel like it's very close to Pete R's recommendation.

At that point we took it all apart and ran it through the ultrasonic cleaner, rinsed and dried, and reassembled with some assembly lube. We wrapped it up and called it quits. I realized later that we had forgotten to check for coil binding, but I don't think it will be a problem with only using .015 shims on the exhaust side and no shims at all on the intakes.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)

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