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#441374 - 06/22/12 8:44 am A65 Front Brake improvements  
Joined: Sep 2004
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gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
My 68 A65 uses a single sided 8 inch sls type front brake. The performance of this brake is less than impressive so IM wondering if there is any way to make it work better?

So far I have done the following to try and improve its performance:-
- checked cable routing
- checked handlebar lever for correct operation with no flexing
- centralised the shoes by loosening the pivot, applying the brake and re tightening

I realise the 8 inch sls brake is never going to be a show stopper but I was wondering if anyone has had any success in making it work efficiently?

I guess part of the problem is related to having the shoes make full contact with the drum. How does one go about checking and adjusting this? Also are there any types of shoes or lining materials which are considered better than others?

I guess one option would be to use an 8 inch tls brake plate but would this fit straight on to the half width hub or would a complete new hub & brake be needed?

All info welcome.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
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#441378 - 06/22/12 8:57 am Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
Joined: Dec 2004
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kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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Scotland
I have fitted Triumph shoes to my 7" single sided and once filed to fit they act as fully floating shoes and do improve the braking, I have an 8" brake fitted with the relevant Triumph shoes but unfitted so can't tell if they improve in the same way but they should. Next option is to use the same triumph shoes but fit 2 cams from the TLS and add TLS action but more work is required.

#441395 - 06/22/12 11:50 am Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: kommando]  
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lemans Offline
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fit disks, for improved braking under all conditions.
remember all the cars in front of you have ABS-brakes




Last edited by lemans; 06/22/12 11:53 am.
#441434 - 06/22/12 3:02 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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Tim Lynch Offline
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Tim Lynch  Offline
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Devon, UK
I have an A65 single sided 8 inch sls type front brake but modified it to make the shoes floating and reversed the operating arm. This made it perform much better and tyre squeels were possible. I have now converted it to TLS but until new shoes are fitted and the brake set up correctly I don't know how well it works yet.

More pics available at BSA TLS brake

or TLS on Flickr





1949 BSA M33
1952 JABSA 652 Sprinter
2009 Honda VFR 800
#441549 - 06/23/12 4:06 am Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: Tim Lynch]  
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razor Offline
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tasmania australia
Brilliant I have been toying with this idea for a while looks great what did you make the new cam spindles out of are they the same length as standard

#441572 - 06/23/12 11:01 am Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: razor]  
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kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


Joined: Dec 2004
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Scotland
Most impressed with Tims brake, its got me thinking:-

The cams from the 69/70 TLS front brake fit if a smaller bush if made, you can use the 69/70 TLS levers as well. Here is a mock up showing use of a 7" SLS fork bottom to add back the missing cable stop. You can shorten the brake torque arm to rotate the brake plate to its best position.

First showing it normal length brake torque arm length.



And with if the arm was shortened to rotate the plate.


#441573 - 06/23/12 11:02 am Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: razor]  
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Tim Lynch Offline
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Tim Lynch  Offline
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Cam spindles are made from 316 stainless steel, same length as standard but with combined cam/anchor arrangement for the opposite shoe.



1949 BSA M33
1952 JABSA 652 Sprinter
2009 Honda VFR 800
#441574 - 06/23/12 11:28 am Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: kommando]  
Joined: Sep 2008
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Tim Lynch Offline
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Tim Lynch  Offline
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Devon, UK
Kommando, I did think to use 69/70 TLS parts but it is difficult to overcome the supporting of the other brake shoe without extra pivots for these.
I also thought about Norton Commando TLS parts as well but ended up using BSA brake arms which give more position adjustment on the cam spindles.
The Norton set up is still a potential Mk2 brake idea.


1949 BSA M33
1952 JABSA 652 Sprinter
2009 Honda VFR 800
#441580 - 06/23/12 12:07 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
Joined: Dec 2004
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kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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Scotland
Tim, I use the Triumph 8" SLS shoes which do not have the shortened ends of the TLS shoes, the TLS cams are flat on the operating side and have a semi circle on the static side so a shoe end can rest on this side and not move and so be a trailing end so no need for extra pivot.

Pics of the TLS cam in a Triumph 8" SLS brake showing how the shoes fit both side of the cam, the cam only operates one shoe due to its cam shape, purpose made.




#441598 - 06/23/12 2:38 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: kommando]  
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gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Alot of good suggestions, the twin discs look impressive and Tims work converting the 8 inch sls to tls is great.

Tim, did you have the cams specially made or are they off the shelf?

Looks like the conversion using the 69/70 TLS cams in SLS mode is the easiest setup in the short term, so may welltry this out first.

Also, what about brake lining materials? Most BSA suppliers seem to supply pattern shoes like emgo etc. I was wondering which, if any shoes are better than others?


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#441604 - 06/23/12 3:30 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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Tim Lynch Offline
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Devon, UK
Kommando,
Thanks for the info. I have Triumph TLS cams, arms and linkage but would need SLS shoes.
An easy mod by the sound of it.
I take it arms and linkage are available in stainless?

Gunner,
I made cams, new cam bush, cable anchor, linkage etc myself.
Not a 5 minute job!


1949 BSA M33
1952 JABSA 652 Sprinter
2009 Honda VFR 800
#441612 - 06/23/12 4:54 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
Joined: Dec 2004
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kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


Joined: Dec 2004
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Scotland
Tim,

Yes arms and linkage are available in stainless from more than one source. You have to watch the SLS shoes as there are 2 widths, in 66 they added the flange on one side to the hub and widened the brake suface which carried forward to the TLS. So there are 2 widths of SLS shoe to suit the 2 hubs.

#441633 - 06/23/12 7:37 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: kommando]  
Joined: Sep 2008
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Tim Lynch Offline
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Devon, UK
Kommando,
I did a similar mod to you but on BSA 8" SLS brake by making shoes floating and reversing operating arm. It works really well. Problem with floating shoes and TLS set up with fixed linkage is that cams need to move independently of each other as per conical hub TLS brake where equal force is applied to both shoes. Reversing the operating arm on SLS floating shoe brake makes the leading shoe contact drum first and is much more efficient.


1949 BSA M33
1952 JABSA 652 Sprinter
2009 Honda VFR 800
#441717 - 06/24/12 10:23 am Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
Joined: Dec 2004
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kommando Online content
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Scotland
Tim,
got any pics of the reverse lever, I am assuming you had to rotate the brakeplate so the cable pull direction was retained but a pic would show me what needs doing.

#441727 - 06/24/12 12:57 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: kommando]  
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Tim Lynch Offline
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Devon, UK
Brake plate has to be rotated and a new torque arm made with larger diameter hole to fit over the cable anchor. I removed and blanked the original anchor stud. Cable toggle was extended as I didn't bother making a longer cable. Shoes have the semi circular pivot machined or filed flat and a steel plate added to provide the floating feature. Once bedded in, the brake works really well.





Last edited by Tim Lynch; 06/24/12 1:26 pm.

1949 BSA M33
1952 JABSA 652 Sprinter
2009 Honda VFR 800
#441736 - 06/24/12 2:02 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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kommando Online content
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Thanks for the pics, using the Triumph shoes would mean even less work as they already have the flat ends.

#441830 - 06/25/12 8:34 am Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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gunner Online content
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This may be a dumb question, but what is the advantage of reversing the lever? Is it simply that the angle is better and provides better leverage when applied? I do notice my 8 inch sls lever is past he ideal 90 degree angle when applied.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#441832 - 06/25/12 8:57 am Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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kommando Online content
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Scotland
Its to do with the effect of the cam on the 2 shoes, in the normal position for this brake the trailing shoe is moved further than the leading, by reversing the lever the opposite happens. To understand how this works take the brakeplate off and looking at the shoes, operate the lever and look at which shoe is moved by the outside edge of the cam, it will be the trailing side. The outside edge of the cam will move that shoe just that bit more than the inside edge, by reversing the lever its the leading shoe which moves more and this is the shoe that gives more braking effect.

Making the shoes floating means they can self adjust their position for wear as they are free to move, so no need to apply the brake while the axle is tightened.

In the UK is your lever goes less than 90 degrees you fail the annual inspection as it reduces the leverage effect.

#441837 - 06/25/12 9:39 am Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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believe it or not this was standard practice to even out wear on both shoes so you & I will change them as a set rather than one at a time.
What is really important is to be able to shim the rear pivot so as to get the shoes really close to the drum to give full contact to the shoe rather than just the 1/3 closest to the cam.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#441855 - 06/25/12 12:51 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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gunner Online content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Thanks for the explanation Kommando, IM a novice with drub brake theory and have another question I hope you can help with:-

How is the leading shoe able to exert greater braking effect than the trailing shoe? I would have thought either shoe would provide the same braking effort depending which way the lever/cam was orientated? Indeed why didnt BSA (and others) adopt the alternative arrangement if it is better?


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#441871 - 06/25/12 2:53 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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kommando Online content
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Scotland
The leading shoe is dragged more open as it operates so it has a self servo effect, a trailing shoe is dragged shut so has less effect, so a Twin Leading shoe is better than a single leading shoe in the forward direction. Try holding a static bike on an upward slope with a TLS on and as the bike goes backwards it becomes a Twin Tailing shoe brake and sometimes cannot stop the bike even full on.

As WM20 mentioned you end up with a better brake but one shoes wears faster than the other and as they are only avaialble in pairs now you buy more sets, for better brakes that is something I can live with.

#441895 - 06/25/12 5:59 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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gunner Online content
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Great info Kommando, will have to see about converting my A65 amd B44 sls brakes as suggested.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#441927 - 06/25/12 10:47 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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Tim Lynch Offline
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Tim Lynch  Offline
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Devon, UK
Assuming both shoes are identical, rotation of the cam clockwise i.e. normal set up, as Kommando says, the trailing shoe will be moved further than the leading shoe.
This is because its point of contact with the cam is closer to the pivot point than that of the leading shoe, so the trailing shoe will contact the drum before the leading shoe does.
This is why the brake does not perform as well as it could.
By reversing the lever and turning the cam anti-clockwise, the opposite happens and the leading shoe now contacts the drum first.
Brake works better now.
This is one of the reasons rear brakes are often easy to lock up as they are usually true leading shoe brakes and not, as I think the standard BSA brake should be called, a single trailing shoe brake.
Look at bikes which have “good” brakes like Vincents for example, the operating arm is pulled in the opposite direction to wheel rotation which will always result in a true leading shoe brake.


1949 BSA M33
1952 JABSA 652 Sprinter
2009 Honda VFR 800
#441995 - 06/26/12 12:43 pm Re: A65 Front Brake improvements [Re: gunner]  
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kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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A qd brake should already be set up this way but it depends on how it was assembled, I have seen the levers in both up and down direction on QD rear brakes, most are down which is the better way but on the rear as Tim mentions can cause low speed lock ups which I can handle.


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