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#409652 - 12/21/11 1:38 am Triumph and Whitworth tools  
Joined: Mar 2007
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Lenos Offline
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Lenos  Offline
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San Pedro CA
When did Triumph go away from British style fasteners on their engines?

Thanks


'64 Atlas/'60 TR6 Triton
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#409685 - 12/21/11 6:58 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
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Tiger Offline
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Melbourne Australia
Engine/gearbox cover screws 1968/69, still lots of CEI and such after that in places like head bolts etc.

The eternal question is "what have you got ?"

Lots of information here but difficult to offer if we have to guess what model/year you are referring to.

Best suggestion is to include that in your sign on details.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
#409733 - 12/21/11 4:41 pm Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Tiger]  
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Lenos Offline
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San Pedro CA
I probably should have explained. Here's the deal. My brother just bought his first British bike, a Rickman Triumph 500. I figured a thoughtful Christmas present would be some Whitworth tools to work on the engine, but I'm not altogether sure of the year of the engine. I believe it's around 1968-69. (I hope he's not on this forum.)
I guess the main items would be the head bolts, case nuts, manifold nuts and internal things. The cover shouldn't matter much since there are no CEI/Whitworth/BSC/Etc screwdrivers that I know of (or are there?)

(My bike is a 58 TR6/64 Atlas Triton so that would have been misleading.)

Thanks


'64 Atlas/'60 TR6 Triton
#409749 - 12/21/11 6:17 pm Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
Joined: May 2005
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Britishtools Offline
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Posts: 146
Lyons, NY

I've sold Whitworth tools to people with Rickmans from time to time although I dont know much about them.

There are no such things as BSW/CEI/BSF etc..allen wrenches but you may want watch out for pozidrive screws. To the untrained eye, they will look suspiciously like phillips (especially if well worn). I have attached a drawing below.

Pozidrive screwdrivers and screwdriver tips are available.



#409824 - 12/22/11 3:05 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
Joined: Oct 2003
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RF Whatley Offline
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RF Whatley  Offline
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North Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Lenos
When did Triumph go away from British style fasteners on their engines?



Trick question. "On the engine ?" or "Inside the engine ?"

External fasteners converted to Unified starting about 1970. Some of the internal engine nuts and bolts weren't converted until 10 years later.

Most all the Lucas parts stayed "Whitworth". AMAL Concentrics were all "Whitworth".

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#409827 - 12/22/11 3:12 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
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RF Whatley Offline
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RF Whatley  Offline
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North Georgia, USA
PS...

You can get all the Whitworth you need at Sears....




laughing


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#409833 - 12/22/11 4:05 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
Joined: Jun 2002
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Stuart Online content
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Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted By: Lenos
When did Triumph go away from British style fasteners on their engines?

Originally Posted By: Lenos
Rickman Triumph 500.

Year is important. I've a '69 and it's a mixture of Imperial ("Whitworth") and UNF threads. E.g. head bolts never changed - they remained Cycle thread right up 'til the end of the model run in '74; tacho. drive mounting, barrel base studs and nuts are UNF; case (primary, timing & gearbox) screws are BSF.

Originally Posted By: Lenos
I'm not altogether sure of the year of the engine.

Look for the VIN - on the drive-side crankcase just under the barrel:-

. if it's 'H' and a number, before 65573, it's '68 or before and all Imperial threads;

. if it's 65573 or greater, it's early '69;

. if it's two letters and five figures:-

. 'AD0xxxx' or second letter 'C' is later '69;

. second letter 'D' with any other number is '70, 'E' is '71, 'G' is '72, 'H' is '73 and 'J' is '74.

Hth.

Regards,

#410050 - 12/24/11 12:19 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Stuart]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
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Michigan, USA
RF, where/when did you get those wrenches ? I am lealous ....I have gathered sets of Blue Point and snap on as the guy on the big white truck said he could special order me them and I took him up on it more than a decade ago but I have only heard tales of the mythical Craftsman sets , never seen one .

Anyway , to the question at hand , I know that the TRI/BSA machines went to SAE -ish in about '69 but I have never wrenched on a Britbike that dont e have "ANY" whitworth wrench sized fasteners on it so it couldn't be a bad idea to stick those under the tree , even if they are an unnecessary conversation pice they wont be unapreciated .

FWIW-BONZO

#410078 - 12/24/11 9:22 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: BONZO R.I.P.]  
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DavidP Offline
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Gnashville
Originally Posted By: BONZO

Anyway , to the question at hand , I have never wrenched on a Britbike that dont e have "ANY" whitworth wrench sized fasteners on it so it.
FWIW-BONZO

My '74 T150V had no 'Whitworth' fittings on it that I ever found. Might have been some English threads there somewhere, but I never found them.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#410175 - 12/25/11 12:59 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: DavidP]  
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: BONZO
RF, where/when did you get those wrenches ?

Craftsman is Sears? I have some too, collected by a friend some years ago when he was visiting the US, as I believe Sears(?) won't supply outside the US and Canada?

Originally Posted By: DavidP
My '74 T150V had no 'Whitworth' fittings on it that I ever found.

Triples don't, apart from the ancillaries like Lucas and AMAL; afaict, it's because they were first produced after BSA had decided to go Unified as a Group standard, so all parts were drawn up with Unified threads.

Otoh, parts first drawn up when the Group standard was Cycle and BSF only seem to have been converted to Unified if they or something associated were changed? Hence, for example, 500 head bolts/studs remained Cycle because the block was never changed; but 750 twin parts changed to Unified where 650 twin parts were still Imperial.

Hth.

Regards,

#410200 - 12/25/11 4:21 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
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Posts: 3,348
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

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Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
Stuart , Yes , Craftsman is a sears brand , now carried by K mart , huge and well respected in this area but I have never actually seen any whitworth/BSC tools from them .

I've never wrenched a Britbike newer than a '72 A-65 ,well there is Carins Hinckley with all sortsa metrickery type stuff on there but that doesn't seem to apply here so much

FWIW-BONZO

#410206 - 12/25/11 7:10 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
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DavidP Offline
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Gnashville
I've never seen any Whitworth spanners at Sears. Perhaps back in the day or special order.

http://britishfasteners.com/ These guys sell the fasteners and tools to turn them. It's also worth reading the tech articles about the different thread conventions.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#410262 - 12/25/11 6:57 pm Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
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Dr. Z Online content
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Dr. Z  Online Content
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Montana, USA
I was given these over 40 years ago when I got my first BSA. Craftsman and Whitworth.



Craig Zaspel

T100R
BSA A10
#410282 - 12/25/11 9:25 pm Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
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t120mike Offline
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hampshire, england
If you are wanting to source imperial size tools, you could do worse than bacons . They ship worldwide.
There is some useful advice in his website


mike
Member #: 147
1960 T120 Bonneville
1999 H*%^a VFR 800 FI
V4 Triton Project (still keeping me sane (Ha-Ha!))
#422995 - 03/07/12 6:42 pm Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
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Ken Holby Offline
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Ken Holby  Offline
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Clarksburg, WV USA
I have a '70 TR6R and it seems to me that the engine and tranny bolts/nuts are still mostly Whitworth and the rest of the bike are mostly Unified. Ex.: My head stud nuts are in-between 9/16" and a 5/8". I use the open end of a 5/8" box/open to tighten the things. I have to be careful I don't round them off tho'.

I've actually run into bolt heads that only millimeter sockets will work on. Without springing for a good Whitworth selection of tools (I'm really cheap), I'm doing with what fits the best.

Last edited by Ken Holby; 03/07/12 6:43 pm.

'70 TR6R Chop (always in process)
#422996 - 03/07/12 6:50 pm Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
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Swan Offline
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Winona, MN
Sears Craftsman Whitworth





1966 Triton
1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star
1966 Triumph Bonneville
#423064 - 03/07/12 11:53 pm Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Ken Holby]  
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Stuart Online content
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Scotland
Hi Ken,

Originally Posted By: Ken Holby
'70 TR6R
Ex.: My head stud nuts are in-between 9/16" and a 5/8".

Yep, sounds right - the hex. for 3/8" Cycle or BSF is as near-as-dammit 19/32"AF.

Originally Posted By: Ken Holby
I've actually run into bolt heads that only millimeter sockets will work on.

Probably because the dpo (plural) before you "weren't careful enough they didn't round 'em off" ... Why would you use a 5/8" open-ender, which is almost certainly sprung wider, on a hex. that's a gnat's off 19/32"AF? crazy

Originally Posted By: Ken Holby
Without springing for a good Whitworth selection of tools (I'm really cheap),

With respect, that's more silly than "cheap". The very first socket set I ever bought - mail order, something like 35 years ago - came with three or four xx/32"AF sockets. Never had occasion to use 'em, 'til I came up against my first 1960's Triumph (all the previous ones were 1970's and Unified fasteners). Just the American (or Far Eastern for the American market) way of marking tools for British fasteners? Once I knew that, I started to see plenty of second-hand tools marked similarly, usually un- or barely-used, but cheap 'cos the sellers didn't know what they were for.

Hth.

Regards,

#423078 - 03/08/12 1:44 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Stuart]  
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DavidP Offline
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Gnashville
Originally Posted By: Stuart

Probably because the dpo (plural) before you "weren't careful enough they didn't round 'em off" ... Why would you use a 5/8" open-ender, which is almost certainly sprung wider, on a hex. that's a gnat's off 19/32"AF? crazy

Maybe that's why I'll never get my timing plug out until the engine is out of the frame so I can get some vicegrips on it. laughing


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#423086 - 03/08/12 2:19 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Ken Holby]  
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Jim Hultman Offline
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Jim Hultman  Offline
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Minnesota, US
Originally Posted By: Ken Holby
I've actually run into bolt heads that only millimeter sockets will work on. Without springing for a good Whitworth selection of tools (I'm really cheap), I'm doing with what fits the best.

Originally Posted By: DavidP
Maybe that's why I'll never get my timing plug out until the engine is out of the frame so I can get some vicegrips on it. laughing

Man, the dark forces are clearly at work here. Anyone up for an exorcism? laughing

Seriously guys, if there was a bible for old British bikers, the first chapter would start out something like:
"And he created the tools"

No investment you can make can make your live easier or the finished product better. Tools seldom if ever wear out and without them.....well that's where the exorcism comes in! eek

And, not to start something, but this is a conversation we shouldn't even be having here!! mad

(Flame suit on)

#423116 - 03/08/12 8:21 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Stuart]  
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Phatt Bob Offline
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Phatt Bob  Offline
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"Year is important. I've a '69 and it's a mixture of Imperial ("Whitworth") and UNF threads.

Just a thought on Whitworth and UNF. Some Whitworth threads may be UNC, as it shares the same diameter and TPI, but not thread form.

Bob

P.S. Since we're talking about BRITISH tools, can we call them spanners, please? laughing


Phatt Bob
'95 Daytona 1200
'98 Daytona 1200 dragbike
ex-850 T140 Caff Racer, 850 Triton, Morgo T120, Starfire and Pretend Daytona 500 owner
#423218 - 03/08/12 6:54 pm Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Phatt Bob]  
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi Bob,

Originally Posted By: Phatt Bob
Some Whitworth threads may be UNC, as it shares the same diameter and TPI, but not thread form.

Nah, having owned at least one T160 continuously since 1977, and the "'69" (a T100) since the mid-1980's, I know the difference between UNC and Whitworth - if nothing else, the AF spanners (ok? grin ) that fit UNF nuts 'n' bolts also fit UNC nuts 'n' bolts while they almost never fit anything Imperial.

Moreover, Triumph (as part of BSA) didn't use the actual Whitworth (BSW) threadform in '69, aiui Triumph didn't use it after the pre-units.

Finally, for example, ...
Originally Posted By: Ken Holby
'70 TR6R
head stud nuts are in-between 9/16" and a 5/8".

I know these are 3/8" Cycle so are 0.6"AF which is a gnat's bigger than the aforementioned 19/32"AF because, as I put in an earlier post, these never changed on the 500's - they did to Unified on the bigger twins, as part of one of Meriden's vain efforts to keep the head attached to the barrel so suck-squeeze-bang-blow worked in order. wink

Hth.

Regards,

#423513 - 03/10/12 5:03 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Stuart]  
Joined: Sep 2008
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40 Below! Offline
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40 Below!  Offline
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Goldendale, Washington
Thought of replacing a couple of my Snap on whitworths that were worn out after many years and was told by the Snapon rep they were no longer available from them. Tho I havent checked that out on the web yet


"Growing old is obligatory - growing up is optional"
70 TR6C, daily ride
66 TR6SR(750 street tracker)
?? TR25 ice toy
71 TR6 project
#431630 - 04/25/12 11:47 am Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos]  
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Ken Holby Offline
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Ken Holby  Offline
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Clarksburg, WV USA
I think I will be looking for a 19/32" wrench...


'70 TR6R Chop (always in process)

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