BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
Jwood & co JRC Engineering dealers Jwood & co
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
Spitfire Ken
Spitfire Ken
Illinois
Posts: 211
Joined: April 2013
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
29 registered members (BikeVice), 190 guests, and 407 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
FireGuyKC, spuggy, Vinny Cotroneo, KeithM, Mridul Handa
10285 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Stuart 97
Lannis 62
Popular Topics(Views)
633,845 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics67,352
Posts653,894
Members10,285
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Triumph and Whitworth tools #409652
12/21/11 1:38 am
12/21/11 1:38 am
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 88
San Pedro CA
Lenos Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Lenos  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 88
San Pedro CA
When did Triumph go away from British style fasteners on their engines?

Thanks


'64 Atlas/'60 TR6 Triton
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #409685
12/21/11 6:58 am
12/21/11 6:58 am
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
BritBike Forum member
Tiger  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Engine/gearbox cover screws 1968/69, still lots of CEI and such after that in places like head bolts etc.

The eternal question is "what have you got ?"

Lots of information here but difficult to offer if we have to guess what model/year you are referring to.

Best suggestion is to include that in your sign on details.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Tiger] #409733
12/21/11 4:41 pm
12/21/11 4:41 pm
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 88
San Pedro CA
Lenos Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Lenos  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 88
San Pedro CA
I probably should have explained. Here's the deal. My brother just bought his first British bike, a Rickman Triumph 500. I figured a thoughtful Christmas present would be some Whitworth tools to work on the engine, but I'm not altogether sure of the year of the engine. I believe it's around 1968-69. (I hope he's not on this forum.)
I guess the main items would be the head bolts, case nuts, manifold nuts and internal things. The cover shouldn't matter much since there are no CEI/Whitworth/BSC/Etc screwdrivers that I know of (or are there?)

(My bike is a 58 TR6/64 Atlas Triton so that would have been misleading.)

Thanks


'64 Atlas/'60 TR6 Triton
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #409749
12/21/11 6:17 pm
12/21/11 6:17 pm
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 146
Lyons, NY
B
Britishtools Offline

BritBike Forum member
Britishtools  Offline

BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 146
Lyons, NY

I've sold Whitworth tools to people with Rickmans from time to time although I dont know much about them.

There are no such things as BSW/CEI/BSF etc..allen wrenches but you may want watch out for pozidrive screws. To the untrained eye, they will look suspiciously like phillips (especially if well worn). I have attached a drawing below.

Pozidrive screwdrivers and screwdriver tips are available.



Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #409824
12/22/11 3:05 am
12/22/11 3:05 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,211
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,211
North Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Lenos
When did Triumph go away from British style fasteners on their engines?



Trick question. "On the engine ?" or "Inside the engine ?"

External fasteners converted to Unified starting about 1970. Some of the internal engine nuts and bolts weren't converted until 10 years later.

Most all the Lucas parts stayed "Whitworth". AMAL Concentrics were all "Whitworth".

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #409827
12/22/11 3:12 am
12/22/11 3:12 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,211
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,211
North Georgia, USA
PS...

You can get all the Whitworth you need at Sears....




laughing


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #409833
12/22/11 4:05 am
12/22/11 4:05 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,950
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Offline
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,950
Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted By: Lenos
When did Triumph go away from British style fasteners on their engines?

Originally Posted By: Lenos
Rickman Triumph 500.

Year is important. I've a '69 and it's a mixture of Imperial ("Whitworth") and UNF threads. E.g. head bolts never changed - they remained Cycle thread right up 'til the end of the model run in '74; tacho. drive mounting, barrel base studs and nuts are UNF; case (primary, timing & gearbox) screws are BSF.

Originally Posted By: Lenos
I'm not altogether sure of the year of the engine.

Look for the VIN - on the drive-side crankcase just under the barrel:-

. if it's 'H' and a number, before 65573, it's '68 or before and all Imperial threads;

. if it's 65573 or greater, it's early '69;

. if it's two letters and five figures:-

. 'AD0xxxx' or second letter 'C' is later '69;

. second letter 'D' with any other number is '70, 'E' is '71, 'G' is '72, 'H' is '73 and 'J' is '74.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Stuart] #410050
12/24/11 12:19 am
12/24/11 12:19 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
RF, where/when did you get those wrenches ? I am lealous ....I have gathered sets of Blue Point and snap on as the guy on the big white truck said he could special order me them and I took him up on it more than a decade ago but I have only heard tales of the mythical Craftsman sets , never seen one .

Anyway , to the question at hand , I know that the TRI/BSA machines went to SAE -ish in about '69 but I have never wrenched on a Britbike that dont e have "ANY" whitworth wrench sized fasteners on it so it couldn't be a bad idea to stick those under the tree , even if they are an unnecessary conversation pice they wont be unapreciated .

FWIW-BONZO

Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #410078
12/24/11 9:22 am
12/24/11 9:22 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,012
Gnashville
DavidP Online content

BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,012
Gnashville
Originally Posted By: BONZO

Anyway , to the question at hand , I have never wrenched on a Britbike that dont e have "ANY" whitworth wrench sized fasteners on it so it.
FWIW-BONZO

My '74 T150V had no 'Whitworth' fittings on it that I ever found. Might have been some English threads there somewhere, but I never found them.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: DavidP] #410175
12/25/11 12:59 am
12/25/11 12:59 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,950
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Offline
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,950
Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted By: BONZO
RF, where/when did you get those wrenches ?

Craftsman is Sears? I have some too, collected by a friend some years ago when he was visiting the US, as I believe Sears(?) won't supply outside the US and Canada?

Originally Posted By: DavidP
My '74 T150V had no 'Whitworth' fittings on it that I ever found.

Triples don't, apart from the ancillaries like Lucas and AMAL; afaict, it's because they were first produced after BSA had decided to go Unified as a Group standard, so all parts were drawn up with Unified threads.

Otoh, parts first drawn up when the Group standard was Cycle and BSF only seem to have been converted to Unified if they or something associated were changed? Hence, for example, 500 head bolts/studs remained Cycle because the block was never changed; but 750 twin parts changed to Unified where 650 twin parts were still Imperial.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #410200
12/25/11 4:21 am
12/25/11 4:21 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
Stuart , Yes , Craftsman is a sears brand , now carried by K mart , huge and well respected in this area but I have never actually seen any whitworth/BSC tools from them .

I've never wrenched a Britbike newer than a '72 A-65 ,well there is Carins Hinckley with all sortsa metrickery type stuff on there but that doesn't seem to apply here so much

FWIW-BONZO

Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #410206
12/25/11 7:10 am
12/25/11 7:10 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,012
Gnashville
DavidP Online content

BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,012
Gnashville
I've never seen any Whitworth spanners at Sears. Perhaps back in the day or special order.

http://britishfasteners.com/ These guys sell the fasteners and tools to turn them. It's also worth reading the tech articles about the different thread conventions.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #410262
12/25/11 6:57 pm
12/25/11 6:57 pm
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 326
Montana, USA
D
Dr. Z Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dr. Z  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 326
Montana, USA
I was given these over 40 years ago when I got my first BSA. Craftsman and Whitworth.



Craig Zaspel

T100R
BSA A10
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #410282
12/25/11 9:25 pm
12/25/11 9:25 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 918
hampshire, england
T
t120mike Offline
BritBike Forum member
t120mike  Offline
BritBike Forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 918
hampshire, england
If you are wanting to source imperial size tools, you could do worse than bacons . They ship worldwide.
There is some useful advice in his website


mike
Member #: 147
1960 T120 Bonneville
1999 H*%^a VFR 800 FI
V4 Triton Project (still keeping me sane (Ha-Ha!))
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #422995
03/07/12 6:42 pm
03/07/12 6:42 pm
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 192
Clarksburg, WV USA
Ken Holby Offline
BritBike Forum member
Ken Holby  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 192
Clarksburg, WV USA
I have a '70 TR6R and it seems to me that the engine and tranny bolts/nuts are still mostly Whitworth and the rest of the bike are mostly Unified. Ex.: My head stud nuts are in-between 9/16" and a 5/8". I use the open end of a 5/8" box/open to tighten the things. I have to be careful I don't round them off tho'.

I've actually run into bolt heads that only millimeter sockets will work on. Without springing for a good Whitworth selection of tools (I'm really cheap), I'm doing with what fits the best.

Last edited by Ken Holby; 03/07/12 6:43 pm.

'70 TR6R Chop (always in process)
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #422996
03/07/12 6:50 pm
03/07/12 6:50 pm
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,156
Winona, MN
Swan Offline

BritBike Forum member
Swan  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,156
Winona, MN
Sears Craftsman Whitworth





1966 Triton
1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star
1966 Triumph Bonneville
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Ken Holby] #423064
03/07/12 11:53 pm
03/07/12 11:53 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,950
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Offline
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,950
Scotland
Hi Ken,

Originally Posted By: Ken Holby
'70 TR6R
Ex.: My head stud nuts are in-between 9/16" and a 5/8".

Yep, sounds right - the hex. for 3/8" Cycle or BSF is as near-as-dammit 19/32"AF.

Originally Posted By: Ken Holby
I've actually run into bolt heads that only millimeter sockets will work on.

Probably because the dpo (plural) before you "weren't careful enough they didn't round 'em off" ... Why would you use a 5/8" open-ender, which is almost certainly sprung wider, on a hex. that's a gnat's off 19/32"AF? crazy

Originally Posted By: Ken Holby
Without springing for a good Whitworth selection of tools (I'm really cheap),

With respect, that's more silly than "cheap". The very first socket set I ever bought - mail order, something like 35 years ago - came with three or four xx/32"AF sockets. Never had occasion to use 'em, 'til I came up against my first 1960's Triumph (all the previous ones were 1970's and Unified fasteners). Just the American (or Far Eastern for the American market) way of marking tools for British fasteners? Once I knew that, I started to see plenty of second-hand tools marked similarly, usually un- or barely-used, but cheap 'cos the sellers didn't know what they were for.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Stuart] #423078
03/08/12 1:44 am
03/08/12 1:44 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,012
Gnashville
DavidP Online content

BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,012
Gnashville
Originally Posted By: Stuart

Probably because the dpo (plural) before you "weren't careful enough they didn't round 'em off" ... Why would you use a 5/8" open-ender, which is almost certainly sprung wider, on a hex. that's a gnat's off 19/32"AF? crazy

Maybe that's why I'll never get my timing plug out until the engine is out of the frame so I can get some vicegrips on it. laughing


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Ken Holby] #423086
03/08/12 2:19 am
03/08/12 2:19 am
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,429
Minnesota, US
Jim Hultman Offline
BritBike Forum member
Jim Hultman  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,429
Minnesota, US
Originally Posted By: Ken Holby
I've actually run into bolt heads that only millimeter sockets will work on. Without springing for a good Whitworth selection of tools (I'm really cheap), I'm doing with what fits the best.

Originally Posted By: DavidP
Maybe that's why I'll never get my timing plug out until the engine is out of the frame so I can get some vicegrips on it. laughing

Man, the dark forces are clearly at work here. Anyone up for an exorcism? laughing

Seriously guys, if there was a bible for old British bikers, the first chapter would start out something like:
"And he created the tools"

No investment you can make can make your live easier or the finished product better. Tools seldom if ever wear out and without them.....well that's where the exorcism comes in! eek

And, not to start something, but this is a conversation we shouldn't even be having here!! mad

(Flame suit on)

Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Stuart] #423116
03/08/12 8:21 am
03/08/12 8:21 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
Phatt Bob Offline
BritBike Forum member
Phatt Bob  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
"Year is important. I've a '69 and it's a mixture of Imperial ("Whitworth") and UNF threads.

Just a thought on Whitworth and UNF. Some Whitworth threads may be UNC, as it shares the same diameter and TPI, but not thread form.

Bob

P.S. Since we're talking about BRITISH tools, can we call them spanners, please? laughing


Phatt Bob
'95 Daytona 1200
'98 Daytona 1200 dragbike
ex-850 T140 Caff Racer, 850 Triton, Morgo T120, Starfire and Pretend Daytona 500 owner
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Phatt Bob] #423218
03/08/12 6:54 pm
03/08/12 6:54 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,950
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Offline
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,950
Scotland
Hi Bob,

Originally Posted By: Phatt Bob
Some Whitworth threads may be UNC, as it shares the same diameter and TPI, but not thread form.

Nah, having owned at least one T160 continuously since 1977, and the "'69" (a T100) since the mid-1980's, I know the difference between UNC and Whitworth - if nothing else, the AF spanners (ok? grin ) that fit UNF nuts 'n' bolts also fit UNC nuts 'n' bolts while they almost never fit anything Imperial.

Moreover, Triumph (as part of BSA) didn't use the actual Whitworth (BSW) threadform in '69, aiui Triumph didn't use it after the pre-units.

Finally, for example, ...
Originally Posted By: Ken Holby
'70 TR6R
head stud nuts are in-between 9/16" and a 5/8".

I know these are 3/8" Cycle so are 0.6"AF which is a gnat's bigger than the aforementioned 19/32"AF because, as I put in an earlier post, these never changed on the 500's - they did to Unified on the bigger twins, as part of one of Meriden's vain efforts to keep the head attached to the barrel so suck-squeeze-bang-blow worked in order. wink

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Stuart] #423513
03/10/12 5:03 am
03/10/12 5:03 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 289
Goldendale, Washington
4
40 Below! Offline
BritBike Forum member
40 Below!  Offline
BritBike Forum member
4
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 289
Goldendale, Washington
Thought of replacing a couple of my Snap on whitworths that were worn out after many years and was told by the Snapon rep they were no longer available from them. Tho I havent checked that out on the web yet


"Growing old is obligatory - growing up is optional"
2015 HD Geezer Glide
85 Sportster Rocket Ship
69 Sportster resto project
66 TR6SR(750 tracker)
?? TR25 tracker
67 441 resto project
Re: Triumph and Whitworth tools [Re: Lenos] #431630
04/25/12 11:47 am
04/25/12 11:47 am
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 192
Clarksburg, WV USA
Ken Holby Offline
BritBike Forum member
Ken Holby  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 192
Clarksburg, WV USA
I think I will be looking for a 19/32" wrench...


'70 TR6R Chop (always in process)

Moderated by  Alan_nc 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1