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#42112 - 05/02/04 9:29 am Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
Morgan Offline

Ride safe today!

Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 1422
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
Brady Pierce kindly sent these images a while back and I missed to publish them but here they are now.
Thank you Brady!

Download all images in a zipped file here

Please note: Before you download read John Healy's post below about page 1 in the download!

Tune & Ride Safe
Morgan your BritBike admin
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#42113 - 06/04/04 11:59 am Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
Mark Z Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2967
Loc: Owego, NY, USA
FWIW, I've found that the overall length and diameter of the exhaust has as much effect on back pressure as does baffling.
_________________________
Mark Z

'67 A65 Lightning (retired for now)
'66/'67/'70 A65 bitsa (soon to be '65/'66/'67/'70 A65 bitsa)

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#42114 - 06/28/04 10:48 am Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
Mr Mike Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 3416
Loc: Cape Carteret, NC
I am gonna disagree on this one. If you put on straight pipes replacing a MORE RESTRICTIVE baffled system, you can generally increase the power at top end by increasing the size of the main jet. That is not to say it won't run ok at top end without the change, but it will tend to be leaner with the original jet. I changed a factory exhaust on a Kaw 1500 Vulcan for a friend and the exhaust came from the factory with a bigger main jet along with detailed instructions. It provided noticeably more power and noise as well.

Mr Mike

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#42115 - 06/28/04 1:14 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
Mr Mike Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 3416
Loc: Cape Carteret, NC
Just another comment on the above. If you just put on straight pipes without any backpressure you will likely need to use the same jet or even smaller. Since a cetain about of backpressure improves velocity across the combustion chamber this becomes a ticklish problem to figure out. GENERALLY a more free flowing exhaust replacing an EPA baffled ehaust will require a bigger jet that will enhance top end perfomance but not always. Depends on the right backpressure which is hard to measure with home tools.

Mr Mike

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#42116 - 08/05/04 12:48 am Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
mitch3brits Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 32
Loc: Central Indiana
Morgan..thank you for the file.

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#42117 - 09/28/04 2:19 am Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
KC in S.B. Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/05/01
Posts: 1932
Loc: Santa Barbara, California
Morgan, Just wanted you to know that this helped me alot in sorting out the '69 A65L I just got running. I was about to burn it, and took the time to read this through carefully. It's a very good tool, THANKS. Regards, KC
_________________________
Buncha ole BSAs and Triumphs, some even run!

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#42118 - 10/21/04 2:20 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
slowpoke Offline
BritBike Forum

Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 1
Loc: Vista, CA
Thanks, Morgan I just bought a T140 and it has the AMAL concentrics on it and this info will be put to the test. It has straight TT pipes which appear to have some sort of baffle in them and I do want the bike to run right. It was a wonder it ran at all with the inside of the tank in such poor condition (rust, water, clogged filters, old gas). I cleaned the tank out and put in the POR-15 tank paint in it and it's as clean as a whistle. Going to start it this week.

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#42119 - 11/08/04 8:48 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
Tommo Offline
BritBike Forum

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2
Loc: Denmark
Nice job, but it's a shame that page 1 contains an important error: It starts out by pointing out the overall importance of correct float level on which I cannot disagree. Then it goes on to say, quote: "Float level too high - Raise the float needle seat". This will have exactly the opposite effect, i.e. if you raise the seat, more fuel has to run into the bowl before pressing the needle against it's seat!

Also the pages do not describe the order in which tuning should be done. Start by getting the main jet right, proceed with needle, throttle slide (cut-away) and end with idle.

But otherwise good and detailed information, especially the section with settings to start from.

Regards,
Tom M. (TM)
Denmark
_________________________
Regards,

Tommo

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#42120 - 11/09/04 7:41 am Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
Tommo Offline
BritBike Forum

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2
Loc: Denmark
I should have mentioned that my comment was based on the AMAL Monoblock, widely used in the 50ies. If you raise the needle seat on this type of carb, float and float pivot is not affected, thus leading to a raised float level. But I must admit I do not fully understand "Panic's" comment, must be my understanding of the English/USA language.
_________________________
Regards,

Tommo

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#42121 - 11/09/04 12:02 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
MoreIBNR Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 144
Loc: Randolph, NJ
I believe the terms "raise" amd "lower" are relative to the float bowl housing. Perhaps the terms should be "push deeper" (for lower) and "pull out a bit" (for raise), but then we wouldn't be able to stop laughing long enough to actually fix the carb.

Lowering the seat will require the float to pivot further to shut the fuel off, hence raising the fuel level. Similarly for raising the seat. I believe this is true for both the Concentric as well as the Monobloc.

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#42122 - 07/20/05 8:27 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
John Healy Online   content


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 8171
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Nice job, but it's a shame that page 1 contains an important error: It starts out by pointing out the overall importance of correct float level on which I cannot disagree. Then it goes on to say, quote:
Quote:
"Float level too high - Raise the float needle seat".
This will have exactly the opposite effect, i.e. if you raise the seat, more fuel has to run into the bowl before pressing the needle against it's seat!

--------------------------------------------------
Being the author of the the pages I would like to make the observations that if the float is siting too high in the bowl (gas level is nearer the top of the bowl) raising the brass seat the needle sits in, will lower the float relative to the top of the bowl, thus lowering the gas in the bowl.

When the seat is raised in the bowl the needle has less to travel as the float rises shutting the fuel off sooner.
john
_________________________
On a Triumph Loctite (blue) MUST be used on THREE FLYWHEEL BOLTS, engine sprocket nut, both nuts on the transmission main shaft (clutch & kick starter ends). When its used, it must be used properly on cleaned surfaces (and primed if necessary when parts are plated).

It should NEVER be used on camshaft nuts, timing side pinion crankshaft nut, bearings, valve guides, replacement cylinder sleeves, replacement valve seats or the flywheel SLUDGE TUBE PLUG!!!!!

"Don't just teach your children to read. Teach them to question what they read." George Carlin

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#42123 - 07/21/05 6:31 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
jsstriumph Offline
BritBike Forum

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 37
Loc: Boulder,Colorado
two questions re: tuning my 626 concentrics;

#1: does one adjust the float bowl level by simply bending the "tang" that holds the float needle until the desired height is reached ?

# 2: Where the devil is this "pressed in" Pilot Jet located ? and how does one access it to drill the .016" hole if its clogged ?

Thanks a bunch !

Schmitty
Boulder, Colorado
_________________________
jss

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#42124 - 07/22/05 12:50 am Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
John Healy Online   content


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 8171
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
#1: does one adjust the float bowl level by simply bending the "tang" that holds the float needle until the desired height is reached ?
# 2: Where the devil is this "pressed in" Pilot Jet located ? and how does one access it to drill the .016" hole if its clogged ?
-----------------------------------------------------
No, you leave the tangs alone. To change the float height, after warming the float bowl, you move the brass needle seat in the bowl with suitable drifts and a small hammer. Raising the brass seat in the bowl lowers the float/gas level. Lowering the brass jet raises the float/gas level.

You can access the pressed in pilot jet throught eh pilot air adjustment screw. Use a #78 dril (about an inch long) and a small 1/8 brass tube availablle from a hobby shop. Crimp the drill in one end of the tube tightly and offer it to the pilot jet screw hole. Be sure to twist the drill as if you were drilling out the jet. If tou push it into the hole it is apt to get stuck and could pull out of the brass tube. This is real awkward as the drill is now located in the bottom of the hole. Ask me how many I have pulled out of carbs in 30 years. Sigh :rolleyes:
john
_________________________
On a Triumph Loctite (blue) MUST be used on THREE FLYWHEEL BOLTS, engine sprocket nut, both nuts on the transmission main shaft (clutch & kick starter ends). When its used, it must be used properly on cleaned surfaces (and primed if necessary when parts are plated).

It should NEVER be used on camshaft nuts, timing side pinion crankshaft nut, bearings, valve guides, replacement cylinder sleeves, replacement valve seats or the flywheel SLUDGE TUBE PLUG!!!!!

"Don't just teach your children to read. Teach them to question what they read." George Carlin

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#42125 - 07/22/05 6:54 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
T. Sharp Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 430
Loc: Nashville, Tn.
John, for decades, I've drilled through the opposite side of the carb (near the offending clogged hole) and used the #78 bit held in a 'Pin Vise'; never lost a bit except in transport from the bolt store. Those things are so small that you have to buy six of them to get home with one! I then plug the hole with a #177 lead pellet, 'suitably peened in place' and sealed with something like silver silicone. Never had one come loose. BTW, thanks for the 'help' with the new Micro-Digital Boyer; I still have some questions for you on the resistor caps. I'll call you later.

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#42126 - 07/23/05 4:35 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
tomterrific Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 404
Loc: Columbus, Ohio, 1978 T140E
Ross made the tool as John suggested and was successfull in drilling out the faulty idle jets on the new Amals. The two carbs immediatly adjusted and were balanced with mercury manometers. I suggested Ross pull the bowl plugs to drain out any junk. We both marveled at the brass shavings from the jet drilling.

Obviously this is a good tool and works well. A thin wire could not open up the new AMAL's pilot jets so I assume the pilots were misdrilled at the time of manufacture.

Tom Graham

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#42127 - 07/23/05 7:11 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
PoorBoy Offline
BritBike Forum

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 79
Loc: Cincinnasty, OH
This may not be relevant to your scenario... but I've come across several carbs in the 930/932 concentrics that were blanked out, with no Pilot jets installed from the factory... so it seemed. I have never had any success putting a pilot jet in a carb that didn't already come with one, but have had great success removing and blanking out the pilot jet as desribed above. They only seem to cause problems for me.

My 2.

Ryan
_________________________
Check the builds out @
www.poorboyschoppers.com

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#42128 - 08/03/05 2:10 am Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
rick e. Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 563
Loc: Earth
First, thanks for posting the AMAL info.

I just happen to be working on a 68 tr6 with a bit of a flooding issue. So off with the float and lapped the bowl flat. Next I went to the lathe and made a little purpose built punch for the brass needle seat. The float measured ~.05" "above" the bowl. Took the float out of the bowl and scribed a line at .075" below the rim. A couple of light taps ( I warmed the bowl first...)with the new punch and set it to the scribed line. Put it all back together, started the bike first kick, no floading issues. Horay!...

Just for the fun of it, I thought I would look at some other float bowls that are in my parts stash. I measure 8 other bowls (with the same float needle asm as a ref. point)and ALL of them measured from ~ .02 to .06 "above" the bowl.

So this brings me to some new question(s)

1) Is the brass seat moving over time (i.e. vibration and such...)

2) After adjusting a brass seat, should one carefully "stake" it with a very small and pointed punch? Or perhaps if your really handy with a lathe, make some small (~.005") brass washer shims and shim the brass seat to correct height.

Any thoughts?

Rick
_________________________
"Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
Carbon monoxide making sure it's effective...
----THE CLASH-----


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#42129 - 08/03/05 12:05 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
John Healy Online   content


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 8171
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
1) Is the brass seat moving over time (i.e. vibration and such...)

No. Although both of Triumph's American subsidaries published a Service Bulletin on setting the float level it wasn't until Grosvenor Works took over AMAL production in the 90's that the height of the float become an issue in production. It was always set as it was drawn on the production drawings: Level across the top of the float bowl.

It wasn't until Grosvenor's top man, Tom Ullman, get involved did the float level become an issue in production. After a bout of problems with floats that were taken out of the mould too soon, and the two little tangs that engage the float needle distorted in a manner that lowered the float level dramatically, Tom started to run some tests and came up with a production standard setting.

In testing on a wet flow bench he confirmed the findings of the Triumph distributors: setting the float level with the top of the bowl, as shown on production drawings, caused the gas level in the bowl to be too high. As long as production remained at Grosvenor Works the float level remained below the top of the bowl.

When AMAL was sold to Burlen a few years back the float level was changed back to the drawing. All of their early production had the float set as per the production drawing with the float above the top of the bowl. Recently they have appeared to relinquish to pressure and lowered the level to below the bowl. At first they dismissed the Triumph Service bulletins provided by Triumph's US subsidaries as not "Factory" information, and thus dismissed any referneces to them.

So the float/fuel level adjustment in production has had an up-and-down history (sorry for the bad pun :rolleyes: )

2) After adjusting a brass seat, should one carefully "stake" it with a very small and pointed punch? Or perhaps if your really handy with a lathe, make some small (~.005") brass washer shims and shim the brass seat to correct height.

Ouch!!! staking? If the brass needle seat is that loose in the bowl it is time for a new bowl. Staking does nothing to improve the integrity of the dimensions of the two pieces that control the fit. If you stake it, the seat is still loose in the bowl, and gasoline can finds its way around the seat.

Although seldom done on a street bike, changing the float level is another tool in a technicians kit of tricks in adjusting the performance of a carburetor. As told by the man who designed the carburetor, Barry Johnston, the specified gas level in the bowl has an acceptable range of .070." It is possible to adjust the gas level within this range to change the performance of the instrument.

john beerchug
_________________________
On a Triumph Loctite (blue) MUST be used on THREE FLYWHEEL BOLTS, engine sprocket nut, both nuts on the transmission main shaft (clutch & kick starter ends). When its used, it must be used properly on cleaned surfaces (and primed if necessary when parts are plated).

It should NEVER be used on camshaft nuts, timing side pinion crankshaft nut, bearings, valve guides, replacement cylinder sleeves, replacement valve seats or the flywheel SLUDGE TUBE PLUG!!!!!

"Don't just teach your children to read. Teach them to question what they read." George Carlin

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#42130 - 08/03/05 12:12 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
Tom_dup1 Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 604
Loc: England
John,

Interesting point on Float Height. Were there any changes made to Tickler length? From my limited experience, it seems that the Float has be be set quite high for the Tickler to work.

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#42131 - 08/03/05 2:39 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
jsstriumph Offline
BritBike Forum

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 37
Loc: Boulder,Colorado
Thanks for the info on how to adjust the float height. bigt My problem is that the float is too low, but I cannot lower the float needle seat any more as it is flush up to its "shoulder". What to do ? confused
Schmitty
Boulder, Colorado
_________________________
jss

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#42132 - 08/03/05 3:07 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
John Healy Online   content


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 8171
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Tom posted:
Interesting point on Float Height. Were there any changes made to Tickler length? From my limited experience, it seems that the Float has be be set quite high for the Tickler to work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom:
The tickler is adjustable. The amount the roll pin is pushed into the button can be changed. It is common for people to push the roll pin all the way to the bottom of the button. Typically this will not allow the roll pin enough travel to reach the float. Pull the pin out of the button a bit until it touches the top of the float, thus allowing the motor to flood. If done in a workman like manner, a pair of diagonal pliers can lever the pin out of the button allowing adjustment.

Did I make sense?

jsstriumph:
I suspect your needle is short or the tangs on the float are in the wrong position. I mentioned in the post were a lot of floats were pulled out of the mold too soon and the tangs to an un-natural set. Instead of them being parallel with the top of the float, they bent downward. They look like they are drooping. This could be your problem and you would need to get a new float.
john beerchug
_________________________
On a Triumph Loctite (blue) MUST be used on THREE FLYWHEEL BOLTS, engine sprocket nut, both nuts on the transmission main shaft (clutch & kick starter ends). When its used, it must be used properly on cleaned surfaces (and primed if necessary when parts are plated).

It should NEVER be used on camshaft nuts, timing side pinion crankshaft nut, bearings, valve guides, replacement cylinder sleeves, replacement valve seats or the flywheel SLUDGE TUBE PLUG!!!!!

"Don't just teach your children to read. Teach them to question what they read." George Carlin

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#42133 - 09/24/05 12:32 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
chardinej Offline
BritBike Forum

Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 33
Loc: Sackville, NB, Canada
I have just sent a new Concentric 600 series carb back to my supplier who is acting on my behalf in dealing with Burlen Fuels. My problem was that as supplied the float level of the carb was about 0.25" below the float bowl flange! It was so low that the tickler would not touch the float. Now I suppose I could have fixed all this but I don't think I should have to after spending over $300 Can on the setup.

My supplier has temporarily suspended supply of the new AMAL carbs until the problems I experienced have been solved. Maybe it will be a long wait.
_________________________
John Chardine

1950 BSA Bantam D1
1953 Sunbeam S8
1962 Triumph Bonneville
1967 Velocette MSS
1968 BSA B44 Shooting Star
1970 Triumph T100S

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#42134 - 09/24/05 12:42 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
chardinej Offline
BritBike Forum

Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 33
Loc: Sackville, NB, Canada
I should have mentioned in my previous post that the method you use to measure the float level is critical. Sorry if this is "old-hat" to folks.

By experimenting with a detached float bowl connected to a fuel supply I have found that a Viton tipped needle will stem the flow of fuel as soon as it rests by its own weight on the seat. It does not have to be held down by the float. Therefore to check the operating float level you have to do one of two things:

1. Lightly depress the top of the needle until it just seats- check the float level.

2. Depress the a float tang until the needle JUST seats- again check level.

If you depress the float tang all the way until it contacts the bottom of the groove in the needle (therefore holding the needle down on the seat) your float will sit much higher than it actually does during operation and give you a false reading.
_________________________
John Chardine

1950 BSA Bantam D1
1953 Sunbeam S8
1962 Triumph Bonneville
1967 Velocette MSS
1968 BSA B44 Shooting Star
1970 Triumph T100S

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#42135 - 09/24/05 2:01 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
John Healy Online   content


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 8171
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
I have just sent a new Concentric 600 series carb back to my supplier who is acting on my behalf in dealing with Burlen Fuels. My problem was that as supplied the float level of the carb was about 0.25" below the float bowl flange! It was so low that the tickler would not touch the float. Now I suppose I could have fixed all this but I don't think I should have to after spending over $300 Can on the setup.

-------------------------------------------------------
During assembly the tickler roll pin was pushed too far up into the aluminum tickler button. This is easily adjusted! An experienced AMAL technicain (your supplier?) can adjust this in a couple of minutes.

The float level, first listed by Triumph in one of their service bullitens, is .060 to .080" below the top of the bowl is measuered when you depress the the float needle by pushing down on one of the float's tangs that engage the needle. To get the same results as listed in the bulliten you must follow their practice.

Now, John, you can devise a new method of checking th float height (really gas level in the bowl), but the figure you get when you measure the edge of the float body to the top edge of the bowl is apt to be different (as well as the gas level in the bowl). One reason to use the float for a reference is that is quick and easily checked, but for it to work from one carb or one person to the other all must use the same method and reference points. If you do it your way and I do it my way we will almost guarantee we will get different results.

If you change the method from the one listed by Triumph in the original service bulliten (for example turning the bowl upside down which puts a different pressure on the needle) you must derive your own float height. This can be done by experiment, but it probably will not be the same figure as listed by Triumph (It is interesting to note that this is a static level (gas) and can change when the engine is running).

Also using the press on the tang method reduces the chances of variations due to the difference in the width of the slot (whether it be a original AMAL or aftermarket) and thickness of the tang.

Although experiment is in our nature, a lot of people just follow the instructions and are apt to be riding while the tinkerers among us are still in the garage. Not that that is bad, but some people prefer the wind in their hair to the smell of stale gas in the garage.

Schmidty: I suspect that the tang on your float is bent, or you have an aftermarket float needle. If the float is taken out of the mold before it has had a chance to cool the tangs will droop. This will make it look like the float level is too low. There was an entire run of these floats made, and put into carburettors, about 5 or 6 years ago. I suspect some of them are still in dealers hands. The problem was spotted and Tom Ullman, of Grosvenor Works changed the method they were removing the plastic from the mold.

The tangs should be parallel with the top of the float. Also compare your needle with one know to have come from AMAL. You might find you have an after market one which is too long.
john
_________________________
On a Triumph Loctite (blue) MUST be used on THREE FLYWHEEL BOLTS, engine sprocket nut, both nuts on the transmission main shaft (clutch & kick starter ends). When its used, it must be used properly on cleaned surfaces (and primed if necessary when parts are plated).

It should NEVER be used on camshaft nuts, timing side pinion crankshaft nut, bearings, valve guides, replacement cylinder sleeves, replacement valve seats or the flywheel SLUDGE TUBE PLUG!!!!!

"Don't just teach your children to read. Teach them to question what they read." George Carlin

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#42136 - 09/24/05 3:47 pm Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor
chardinej Offline
BritBike Forum

Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 33
Loc: Sackville, NB, Canada
Thanks John.

Method 2 I gave for checking the float level is the one you read in the AMAL docs so is not new. Method 1 gives exactly the same result as 2 if you gently seat the needle by pressing on its top. Method 1 is better than 2 because there is some play between the float tangs and the top/bottom of the needle groove so it is difficult to see the exact point at which the needle seats. Both methods give the same results as a third (perhaps best) method I have used: detach the float bowl and hold level below tank, connect to fuel line, gently turn on tap and see where float/fuel comes.
_________________________
John Chardine

1950 BSA Bantam D1
1953 Sunbeam S8
1962 Triumph Bonneville
1967 Velocette MSS
1968 BSA B44 Shooting Star
1970 Triumph T100S

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