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#413698 - 01/17/12 4:13 am 2 Questions  
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jmccandless Online content
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jmccandless  Online Content
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Northern California
Hello All,

This newb is back with a couple of questions regarding my B25 ('67, 12 volt).

1. What is an acceptable idle rpm for the B25?

I searched the site and read and re-read Ruper Ratio's book but can find an answer to this first one. The bike is timed and advancing correctly (new Pazon, adv. 37 degrees), new plug, and new carb, float checked. As it is, I can't get the bike to idle under 2100 rpm.

2. Erratic idle problem.

These two may be interrelated but thought I'd pose separately. As noted, the bike will idle around 2100 HOWEVER, it is erratic. The motor will randomly hunt up and down with the throttle closed/no binding in the cable. It might go up ~ 200-300 rpm on it's own (timing light is on it). THEN, the motor will drop to 1500-1800 rpm. Sometimes the motor catches itself and the idle rises back to over 2000rpm, but it usually dies. If I raise the idle speed, the hunting continues.

So, as setup, the motor runs and accelerates with a twist of the throttle, no hesitation or popping. But, every time I come to a stop sign/light the motor dies as it gets near idle speed in neutral. This also happens if I am just in the garage and I rev the motor, when it returns to idle it dies. If I keep the revs up, it doesn't die.

I've read that the pilot circuit can be a cause of erratic idle, but I've blown carb cleaner through the hole and done everything accept run wire through it. Adjusting the pilot screw does raise/lower the engine running speed, though I suppose it could still have a partial clog?

Other details: I've looked through out the wiring loom for bad wires and replaced all the terminal connectors. Some looked suspicious. I thought the alternator was the issue (only because I've replaced everything else! smile ). Anyway, I was only reading ~12.9v across the battery when I would rev the motor. After I replaced the all the terminal connectors, the battery now reads ~13.6v or better when I rev the motor.

I've read some posts that say, this might just be a problem I have to live with but if I can help it I'd rather spend the time to sort it rather than kickstarting at every corner.

Ideas? Most folks I've talked to believe it's a short somewhere, but I have yet to find it.

-Jason

Last edited by jmccandless; 01/17/12 4:15 am.
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#413704 - 01/17/12 4:30 am Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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JD Offline
Moto-Amish
JD  Offline

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Maryland
Sounds like a clogged idle jet and/or a loose slide.


Josh
#413708 - 01/17/12 4:46 am Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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jmccandless Online content
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jmccandless  Online Content
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Northern California
Thanks JD,

The slide is a brand new, chromed unit.

But, I'll have to blowout the idle jet/circuit next, not sure why I didn't have a go at that the first time around.

jmc

#413716 - 01/17/12 5:29 am Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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Stuart Online content
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Hi Jason,

Originally Posted By: jmccandless
I'll have to blowout the idle jet/circuit next,

Originally Posted By: jmccandless
I can't get the bike to idle under 2100 rpm.

Ime of British twins and triples and innumerable Jap bikes, 2100 rpm is wa-aa-ay too high for idle and, if you can't get it to tickover at much lower rpm (700-800 when warm?), I'd suggest the idle circuit is probably completely blocked. You might "blow" it out but I wouldn't hold my breath; the idle passages (you can see 'em in the bottom of the carb. body with the float bowl off) and idle jet are tiny and it's a feature, particularly of Mk.1 Concentrics, that the metal they're made of (an alloy specially developed for the purpose frown ) turns into a horrible oxide that blocks those passages and jet quite well. frown

There's been quite a lot posted on here over the years about cleaning Mk.1 Concentrics. As you're new to this lark, I'd advise setting aside some time, make a pot of tea or coffee, do a search and read the identified threads then come back with any questions. grin

Hth.

Regards,

#413731 - 01/17/12 10:44 am Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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jmccandless Online content
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jmccandless  Online Content
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Northern California
Hey Allan,

The timing is set for full advance at approx 3500rpm+ maybe a bit higher.

Should it be dialed in closer to 4k or above?

Edit: looking at the B25 adv chart, it seems I need to aim for 37degree full adv. @ closer to 4500rpm.

So, the timing needs to be retarded a degree or two. That would bring the idle down, yeah?

#413733 - 01/17/12 11:43 am Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,885
kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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Scotland
So, the timing needs to be retarded a degree or two. That would bring the idle down, yeah?

Yes retarding the ignition will bring the idle down, but this could be masking an advance that does not return to fully retarded properly.

The RPM for setting the timing depends on the type of ignition which you have not mentioned. However I set it at the revs the strobe shows the advancing has stopped which could be 2K for points with weak advance springs to 5K for a Boyer. A handful of throttle shows you the point of no more advancing but don't go too far.

#413761 - 01/17/12 5:11 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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Mr Mike Offline
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As a regular part of my maintenance I clean the idle circuit in AMAL carbs without removing the carb. I simply remove the idle mixture screw after noting how many turns it is from being seated. With the air filter off I plug the drilling on the mouth of the carb, squirt some carb cleaner in the idle mixture screww hole and blow it out with 90 psi compressed air. I have never had to use a wire, but I do this fairly often. Additionally anyone who has a single and has not added an extended throttle stop screw that can be adjusted w/o a screwdriver is missing avery good simple improvement. I also have an extended screw for pilot air but found it unnecessary after using my regular cleaning procedure. Starting and idling is much improved with these simple changes.
Hope this helps someone.
Mr Mike

#413772 - 01/17/12 5:45 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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jmccandless Online content
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jmccandless  Online Content
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Northern California
Thanks Kommando. The bike has a brand new Pazon installed. I'll go through this again when I work on retarding the ignition. As it is set now, with the strobe on the bike, I can watch it go to maximum advance at the 37 degree mark. I thought that was approx. 3500-4000. I will confirm and/or bring try to bring that above 4000rpm.

Mr. Mike, thanks for the note. I'll give this a shot, this is similar to how I cleaned the pilot circuit. And, I hadn't come across the extended throttle stop screws until I started sorting the AMAL. I definitely plan to grab one of those,

I hope to take a look at the bike again sometime this week,

#414709 - 01/22/12 11:24 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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jmccandless Online content
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Northern California
Update. Just to summarize, I am fighting a high and erratic idle problem on a BSA B25

I retarded the ignition timing but that did not solve the problem. I then pulled the carb and cleaned the idle jet/circuit. No change.

Next, I installed a new alternator. I had run the bike without the alternator so I didn't expect it to be the solution. However, the wires at the stator on the old unit were in bad shape. The new one is putting out solid 13.6v when idling (well, 2200pm anyway).

Next, I installed a power unit to replace the rectifier and zener diode. No change.

At a loss about where to go from here, but the next step seems to be to verify that the cam gear is set correctly. Though, that probably doesn't address the erratic idle. I also plan to pull the rotor to examine more closely for cracks.

#414728 - 01/23/12 1:29 am Re: 2 Questions [Re: ]  
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jmccandless Online content
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Northern California
Hey Allan,

I appreciate all the help and ideas. I've been hoping its something simple too. Fingers crossed.

I have looked at the flatness of the manifold and carb with a straight edge. Seems good, I will have another look. The carb has one paper gasket against the manifold, then the fernol spacer and the rubber o-ring on the carb.

I haven't cranked down on the carb mounting nuts. And, I can grab it and just move it a little. I've grabbed and moved it a bit while the bike was running and that didn't change anything, I also tried spraying carb cleaner around the gaskets while it was running with no effect.

The slide is a size 3, which was spec'ed by Rabers. The same size was in the old carb that was on the bike when I bought it. As far as how big a gap is on the manifold side, I haven't measured it but can get out the micrometer when it's off.

I did follow Rupert Ratios' guidelines for a starting position on the idle and pilot screws. I backed off the idle screw just to the slide closed position on the intake/air filter side (about 8 turns from wide open) then, I brought it up 1 and 1/2 turns as a base starting position. The gap on the intake/air filter side at this setting looks very close to the diagrams in the AMAL tuning worksheet.

I started the pilot screw 1 and 1/2 turns out from closed position. The bike ran best when it was about 3/4 of a turn from the closed/full in position.

#415090 - 01/24/12 7:21 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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Phil Beresford Offline
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The 1967 B25 carburetter was originally configured in what became "two stroke" mode with a pilot jet screwed into the bottom of the body. If your bike still has that carburetter then it will go a long way towards explaining an erratic idle and the cutting out on the overrun. There's an article here that explains what to look for.
http://www.amalcarb.co.uk/TechnicalDetail.aspx?id=11.

#415488 - 01/26/12 5:23 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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jmccandless Online content
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Northern California
Thanks for the link Phil! The carb is new and does not have the pilot jet screwed into the bottom, it's pressed.

So, I recently spent some quality time with the carb, carb cleaner, compressed air and tiny little wires to help clear openings. And, I have the idle down considerably, close to 1000rpm, so that is a huge gain. I've been told 1000rpm is an excellent idle level for the single.

However, the erratic idle problem is still an issue. It will hold 1000-1100, then drop to 700 and die.

So, there is some progress but all is not quite solved. A friend is suggesting building a new simple wiring harness remove any doubts that it's not electric...

#417558 - 02/08/12 5:45 am Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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Northern California
Latest update, yes it's still not fixed. smile

So, I've inspected the coil resistance as it was one thing I hadn't replaced.

Lucas 12V Coil MA12 45110 D and what seems like a date stamp of 3/67.

Primary: 3.5 to 3.6 ohms
Secondary: 5.70K

I determined that the primary reading falls just above the BSA spec for the B25 (3.0 ohms min to 3.4 ohms max).

EDIT: I just read about having to net out the internal resistance of the multimeter, which is 1 to 2ohm. So, its testing close to stock spec.

2nd EDIT: I noticed the body of the old coil is distorted from the clamp. I read that this can cause shorting within the coil. Possible that the coil is reading fine when off but shorting from vibrations when the motor is running? Long shot?

I can not find an acceptable range for the secondary reading in the BSA manual or the Rupert Ratio book. Anyway, the secondary seems to be way under other specs that I've seen (9.5k).

As comparison, I have a loaner, unmarked 12v coil, that tests as follows

Primary: 4.3 ohms
Secondary: 8.8k

(I haven't mounted it just yet because it's too late to fire up the single. And, it's a smaller diameter than my bracket.)

Anyway, could the results of the original coil be causing the erratic and surging idle?

All thoughts are appreciated! Even if you want to tell me how much of a newb I am! smile


Last edited by jmccandless; 02/08/12 6:36 am. Reason: more information...
#417598 - 02/08/12 3:00 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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Alex Offline
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Seattle
Yes, a failing coil can affect idle, though it much more commonly fails at higher rpm. And no, a multimeter often isn't a good way to test a coil since it doesn't simulate the high voltages to which the coil is subjected and that usually cause internal arcing.

Before you go replacing more stuff, there are a few tests you can do: With your strobe light, is the timing mark steady or does it jump around? Does the light fire evenly or can you notice it cutting out? Any of these symptoms point to your ignition system being the fault.

That said, my money is still on fuel issues. If the idle circuit is working properly but the bike still won't idle, the most common problem is a vacuum leak. You can check for vacuum leaks two ways: while the bike is running at the lowest possible idle speed, spray carb cleaner on the mounting flange and the carb top. If the speed drastically increases, you have a vacuum leak. With the carb cleaner it's a bit messy, so I often use an unlit propane torch and hold it near potential leakage sites.

Good luck.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#417609 - 02/08/12 4:24 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: Alex]  
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gunner Online content
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Are sure the throttle cable has sufficient slack in it to allow the slide to bottom in the carb? Sounds to me like the slide is not bottoming fully, maybe the cable is too tight or the slide is binding somewhere.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#417623 - 02/08/12 5:31 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: gunner]  
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jmccandless Online content
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Northern California
Thanks for the feedback Alex, Allan and gunner!

There is lots of slack in the throttle cable. And, I've thought it was an air leak too. Though, I've retorqued the heads recently and the carb is mounted firmly, but not overtight. I'll give the unlit propane a shot, the carb cleaner does get messy.

Interesting notes about the wandering advance. I'll have to get back in the garage and double check. I have also wondered if the stator rotor hasn't separated from the magnet, but I can not see any cracks each time when I've looked. Maybe time to pull that out as well...

Another coil is on order regardless and hope to nail this down. Best,

#417627 - 02/08/12 5:47 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: ]  
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DavidP Offline
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Gnashville
Originally Posted By: 1968BSA
Try mounting your coil with a thin rubber sleave around it, it could be shorting as you suggested

Cut an old bicycle tube. Makes a nice 'rubber band' for mounting coils.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#417643 - 02/08/12 6:45 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Its a good chance the coil is failing, they get worse as they warm up usually.
Youve done the right thing by checking your pilot circuit, does the pilot adjster screw have a noticable effect?

Are you setting the mixture with a well warmed motor?

Does the advance / retard work both ways , its not unknown for a sticky AR to advance but be slow or sticky to retard as the revs fall.

What spark plug? N3s foul easily , N4s dont foul so easily but will run a tad hot if the motor is thrashed.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#418015 - 02/11/12 4:52 am Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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jmccandless Online content
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jmccandless  Online Content
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Northern California
Alright,

New coil installed with a rubber sleeve. But, the problem hasn't gone away.

I got the bike to idle high and then ran MAP gas all around the carb intake and head, rocker covers, etc. with no effect on the engine.

I then put the timing light on the bike and could see the advance bouncing around when the throttle was closed. If I give it throttle, it advances and the timing mark firms up/becomes steady. This explains why the bike would run good once it was on the revs.

So, I'm focused on the ignition system. The bike has a new plug, new plug wire, new Pazon, a new control box to replace the zener and rectifer. New coil.

So, that leaves the wiring and the ignition switch, no? The terminals on the wiring are all new, but I'm sure the wire could be shorted somewhere along the lines.

How can I test the key switch? I am just thinking out loud at this point... Can pull the leads from the back of the key switch and pinching them together, then start the bike? Will that fry something?

I'll have to look up a test procedure for key switches. Any ideas/clues would be helpful!!

Best,
Jason

#418023 - 02/11/12 7:50 am Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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DavidP Offline
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Gnashville
Just jump from the battery to the hot side of the ignition system. That bypasses the switch. alternately you can short the wires from the switch together, that's all the switch does. If that clears things up, it's either the switch or the wires to/from the switch.
Could also be the kill switch. If you have the original, normally closed kill switch, these can corrode and give more resistance. Short the white to white/yellow to bypass.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#418392 - 02/13/12 2:00 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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Alex Offline
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Seattle
This is a classic symptom of low battery voltage with electronic ignition. At idle, your alternator output is minimal so the ignition depends mainly on the battery for adequate voltage. That said, it could be the battery itself or you wiring or ignition switch or other components drawing down the voltage. The test that dave suggests should confirm this. Just run some alligator clip jumpers (you can get them at radio shack, they're really useful) directly from the battery to the ignition. If the problem goes away, it's your wiring. If it doesn't, your battery has probably lost a cell.

Cheers.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#418424 - 02/13/12 3:41 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
Worth trying with jumpers from a battery in a car too.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#418484 - 02/13/12 8:53 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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DavidP Offline
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Gnashville
Just to be on the safe side, I make my test jumpers by putting alligator clips on a fuse holder.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#420903 - 02/26/12 9:08 am Re: 2 Questions [Re: jmccandless]  
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jmccandless Online content
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Northern California
Well, long time no update. Here is the latest.

I went through the wiring harness and found some melted wires. So, I replaced them with new wires. Still, the idle was somewhat erratic/surging. I would run the bike and then try MAP gas around the heads and carb seal with no effect in how the bike ran. Yet, I retorqued the heads and saw improvements. The bike sort of ran at that point...

But, the remaining problem was that the advance was all over the place at idle, it would stabilize with full throttle. I hotwired the bike, no change (eliminate the switch). Then, it got bad and the advance would bounce all over the place at idle and under throttle. The last thing I hadn't yet replaced was the rotor. So..., I went to Rabers for a new rotor and picked up an impact wrench to swap in the new part.

What do you know? With the new rotor, the bike runs solid, idles low, advances, etc. etc. I didn't see any specific cracks, but it looks like the old rotor is pretty worked over:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/86339018@N00/6930836555/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/86339018@N00/6784711346/

Now, the bike is running great, it needs a little tuning but, what a fun little ripper!!!

Thanks again to everyone with for your help and ideas! I have a couple things that I might follow up on with new posts but for now I am super happy with how things have sorted out!

#420949 - 02/26/12 3:45 pm Re: 2 Questions [Re: ]  
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TX
Why is ALWAYS the last thing you check!! Just once Id like it to be the first thing! Just once!! laugh


1967 BSA A65 Lightning powered by a 71 A65 Firebird

AKA phsyco4u

Technology is not the cure for stupidity!
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