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What's the trick ? #416840
02/04/12 1:50 am
02/04/12 1:50 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
BONZO R.I.P. Offline OP
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline OP
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
Here I am trying to clean/reassemble the latest A-10 engine. The thing was completely overhauled so all I really have to do is clean/polish everything and put it back together but for some reason I am having trouble removing the wire clips for the gudgeon pins . I have typically been able to slide them in the groove and prise up on an end and work them around and they fly out . Never removed new ones ? Are these generally this tight or am I looking at a loctite situation?I don't wanna get midievil on it if there is a trick.I feel compelled to strip these to polish the domes and rods .

Even though this thing was totally overhauled I am very pleased that I opted to strip it to bits as everything was assembled with grease that was filled in the bearings as well as the bush, blocking the oil passage .I believe I just caught a glimpse at why a lotta BSA engines grenade after a lotta machine work.

Thanks-BONZO

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Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #416860
02/04/12 4:47 am
02/04/12 4:47 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
Good point,with grease blocking lubrication holes.Why didn't they use oil?

I can't imagine anyone using Loctite on a wire circlip.Maybe the ends of the wire are burred.A scriber or small screwdriver usually does the job,to move the gap to a better position.Sometimes they'll move easier in one direction.

If all else fails,I'd solder something to one end of the circlip.Then use the "something" to pull it out of its groove.
At least you only need to remove the outer circlips.The inner ones can stay there and not cause a problem.

Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #416867
02/04/12 5:16 am
02/04/12 5:16 am
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,845
Central Virginia
Lannis Online content

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Lannis  Online Content

Life member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,845
Central Virginia
The clips are just being mean. Do they rotate in their seats or are they "frozen" into place? If they rotate around, you just need to grind the right kind of a point onto an awl or pick, and work 'em till they holler "UNCLE".

If they've been glued in place with something, a session with a little butane torch should convince them to come out.

A little skim of engine assembly lube on a cam or wrist pin is OK, but why someone would pack an engine full of grease is beyond me. Grease, red Loctite, and blue silicone seal - they ought not be sold without a prescription ....

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: What's the trick ? [Re: Lannis] #416978
02/04/12 8:24 pm
02/04/12 8:24 pm
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,930
Ohio
R
Rickman Offline
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Rickman  Offline
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R
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,930
Ohio
I'll pipe up now...

The only reason I ever found a circlip to be "frozen" into place, was because the wrist pin had slid hard up against the circlip.

You might try to heat the piston up a bit, and try to slide the wrist pin away from the circlip?

I am REALLY glad I finally bought a wrist pin removal tool. No more possibility of putting unnecessary shock loads sideways to the rods anymore.

It has been my experience that the wrist pins used with circlips, have their outer end edges chamfered, enough so that they might capture the circlip into it's groove, if pushed hard against the circlip. When there is a situation where the wrist pin cannot float enough, the piston or the small rod end bush holds onto the wrist pin hard enough, it can hold the pin against the circlip too well.

Spiral locks and their wrist pins are differently made... I suppose the pin can also be held tightly enough against the spiralock to make a near similar situation happen...

Just do NOT use a circlip in a spiralock groove, or a spiralock in a circlip groove, neither set-up will work for long.

Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #417055
02/05/12 3:37 am
02/05/12 3:37 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
BONZO R.I.P. Offline OP
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline OP
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
This is pretty much what I expected to read, looks like time for the blowtorch.Pistons(and preumably wrist pins as they fit pretty snug)are new . None of the four clips will budge at all.

The grease scared me a bit but the machining looks great ,especilly pleased with TS bush .My Sherlock type guess is the PO was looking for a reliably built fugly to look at machine since the only clean part on it is the head (prolly blasted at the machinists )and he left the frame crusty and had a nicely painted likeness of a rat eating cheese,that might stay on there .

FWIW-BONZO


Update .... DONE . A bit of propane did the deed.-Thanks again

Last edited by BONZO; 02/05/12 4:09 am.
Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #418323
02/13/12 12:37 am
02/13/12 12:37 am
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 76
Michigan
dodgeboy57 Offline
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dodgeboy57  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 76
Michigan
Grease is just oil suspended in 'soap'. The engine oil will thin it and the engine will lubricate fine. Grease will NOT plug oil holes. The oil is under pressure and will push the grease into the oil tank.

Circlips are are usually steel and thus dissimilar to the alloy pistons. Dissimilar metals will weld themselves together via galvanic corrosion. Teflon 'buttons' are a better means to an end.

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=172

Using a torch on alloy parts is bad ju-ju. You may have damaged the structure of the piston. 'HOT' rags will expand the pistons.

Last edited by dodgeboy57; 02/13/12 12:40 am.

45 M20
56 Ariel HS
56 Ariel HT5
(3x)57 B34 "Alloy Clipper" (Tri-Scr-ISDT)
58 A7 Bitza
61 Greeves Hawkstone
63 A10 GSS
63 Greeves MDS
65 Otter B40WD Trls
65 M&M B44(Miller frame/Dick Mann eng)
67 Greeves MX5 ChallengerTT
71 B50/570cc MX
Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #418332
02/13/12 2:56 am
02/13/12 2:56 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
BONZO R.I.P. Offline OP
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline OP
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
Really ?Galvanic reaction with a circlip? Never seen that trick.these had some sort of clear residue , almost looked like super glue.Warming a piston with a propane torch is gonna cause a failure ?I can't tell you how many times I've done this , on H-D you pretty much do this just to beat the light interference fit with the gudgoen pin, never broke a piston,I'll take my chances .If you wanna use grease rather than assembly lube ,what can I say ,I aint building a clapped out American V-8.

Just sayin'-BONZO

Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #418351
02/13/12 6:14 am
02/13/12 6:14 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,018
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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DavidP  Offline

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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,018
Gnashville
Originally Posted By: BONZO
Never removed new ones ?

Thanks-BONZO

And, why would one wish to remove NEW gudgeon-pin clips?


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #418359
02/13/12 8:37 am
02/13/12 8:37 am
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10
auckland new zealand
luke morbey Offline
BritBike Forum member
luke morbey  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10
auckland new zealand
i hate those stupid wire circlips, do your self a big favour and make up some teflon bottons instead.and there are better internal circlips out there than those horrible little wire ones.


1951goldenflash hardtail powered by an 1970 A65T, 1940s ish bsa C10's, 1968 A65T hardtail art deco style bobber, 1974ish 103cid hotrod shovelhead dragbike.
Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #418360
02/13/12 8:38 am
02/13/12 8:38 am
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10
auckland new zealand
luke morbey Offline
BritBike Forum member
luke morbey  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10
auckland new zealand
i hate those stupid wire circlips, do your self a big favour and make up some teflon bottons instead.and there are better internal circlips out there than those horrible little wire ones.


1951goldenflash hardtail powered by an 1970 A65T, 1940s ish bsa C10's, 1968 A65T hardtail art deco style bobber, 1974ish 103cid hotrod shovelhead dragbike.
Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #418383
02/13/12 12:57 pm
02/13/12 12:57 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,459
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
BritBike Forum member
triton thrasher  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,459
scotland
I'm sure I've read here that Teflon buttons cause problems in long term road use.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #418444
02/13/12 5:04 pm
02/13/12 5:04 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
BONZO R.I.P. Offline OP
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline OP
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
David , I removed the new clips in order to polish the rods and piston crowns and knife edge the skirts.Little things that take little time and make for a happier engine.

FWIW-BONZO

Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #418452
02/13/12 5:43 pm
02/13/12 5:43 pm
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 76
Michigan
dodgeboy57 Offline
BritBike Forum member
dodgeboy57  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 76
Michigan
No, you aren't rebuilding an American V-8, you are rebuilding a British lump that won't go a fraction of the distance said V-8 will without an overhaul.

Just an FYI, I designed bits for an I4 1L engine that cranked out 300 HP naturally aspirated. You?

I guess you could use your Harley BFH to drive out those pesky grudgeon pins.

It is common to use grease to hold needle rollers in place while assembling 'fully jeweled' conrods. But you knew that, eh?


45 M20
56 Ariel HS
56 Ariel HT5
(3x)57 B34 "Alloy Clipper" (Tri-Scr-ISDT)
58 A7 Bitza
61 Greeves Hawkstone
63 A10 GSS
63 Greeves MDS
65 Otter B40WD Trls
65 M&M B44(Miller frame/Dick Mann eng)
67 Greeves MX5 ChallengerTT
71 B50/570cc MX
Re: What's the trick ? [Re: BONZO R.I.P.] #418465
02/13/12 7:37 pm
02/13/12 7:37 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
BONZO R.I.P. Offline OP
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline OP
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
Wow , that was easier than I expected .


Moderated by  Alan_nc 


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