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#415459 - 01/26/12 2:58 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: Dennis B]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,762
btour Online content
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btour  Online Content
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,762
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Hi Dennis,

I did notice that you chose the plunger style pump over the rotary. Atta way. You love taking them apart and putting them back together, and you have a lot of them, so I think that is great. IMHO it will work just fine for you, in that case.

And as I understand it the four valve will be improvement because of its redundancy with the extra valves. So that is good. I do not know about this particular iteration of it. I know several years back, the four valve plunger type was "as rare as hen's teeth".

You probably know to take care with the gasket and its fitting.

Maybe you took me wrongly. I understand it seems to happen a lot, lately. I will try to explain better. I said I was just being "sour grapes". This refers to the Fable, in which the Fox jumps and jumps and tries to get a bunch of grapes. In the end he gives up, and says to himself, "/those grapes were probably sour anyway". laughing

So Skeet and Dick, I really wish I could ride more. And despite my saying I usually put it away after the first ride in the snow, (which is usually concurrent with my garage becoming way too cold for me to work in. I really do not like working with freezing metal and metal tools. And if I can not maintain it, I do not ride it), but despite saying that I have taken it out on warm days in the winter. I remember several years back, riding and looking at everyone's Christmas lights. And that was a treat. So, I wish I could ride more. But life happens in the land of the living, and it has gotten in the way. Thus the sour grapes statement. :sigh


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
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#415461 - 01/26/12 3:45 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: btour]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,280
Skeet Offline
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Orleans Massachusetts
Bob, I wasn't really referring to you. But it seems to me some on here worry a little too much and hardly use these things. My philosophy with these old relics is to use them as often as conditions allow. Hence, I gain more knowledge with each machine and can address things quickly prior to the summer months. Down here the snow melts rapidly and is usually followed by rain a few days later getting rid of a lot of the salt. Winter riding here also means a lot less traffic. (lots of folks head south, the lucky buggers) and even fewer worries. As to the cold work area & tools, all I can say is absolutely and a very big "OUCH". laugh


Skeet Enjoy life....it has an expiration date..
1964 Hornet
1970 TR6R
1971 Norton
1972 XLH
#415465 - 01/26/12 3:54 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: Dennis B]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Offline
John Healy  Offline



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
Morgo is a bit confused on the web as to the fitment of his plunger pumps. The pre-unit pump will only fit the 650 through 1962. In 1963 the pump changed and the feed and return plungers position in the pump reversed. The pump they say is the pre-65, should read pre-63.

It is my understanding that the volume of the late (70-9421) pump is the same as the Morgo Super pump. The 20% increase can be said to apply to the 70-9421 when replacing the earlier 70-3878 and 70-6828 pumps.

Anyone interested in how the oiling system on a Triumph works should do some reading about "Center Fed" crankshafts - Triumph - Norton vs "Side fed" like BSA.


#415479 - 01/26/12 4:51 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: Dennis B]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,762
btour Online content
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btour  Online Content
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,762
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Hi Skeet,

Thanks smile A ray of sunshine.

Hi John,

Hope all is well. Always look forward to your added illumination of a topic.

All the best to everyone.

Oh and thanks, Desco, too!


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#415491 - 01/26/12 5:30 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: Dennis B]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 866
Dennis B Online content
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Dennis B  Online Content
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Posts: 866
Annapolis, MD


Hi btour

na, you can't blame a Ravens fan for bragging about our wonderful weather to a New England guy!
I just got back from a short 20mi jaunt on my Victor, A little cool (44°F) so I had to bundle up a bit
(no dry suit or oxygen supply needed ;^)
but I had the road to myself most of the time. Didn't see any other bikes today, or the other day
A wood stove in the workshop, that's the ticket

Dick
I total agree that everyone should first refer to their Owners Handbook for oil recommendations
then make the best choices based on what is available to them
The oil I found works best for me is Castrol 4T Motorcycle oil
this is an SG rated oil, but it only comes in multi-grade
so I us 10w40 in cool weather and 20w50 in warm
I do promise to report back if there is any measurable difference
with the new pump

I have to believe that if an after market company like Morgo felt there was a need for a better pump
and Triumph also saw this need and changed to a better pump, then the earlier pumps weren't as good of a design as it could be.

Cheers
Dennis B


Member # 182
'73 750 Commando
'72 Combat Commando
'71 Triumph Blazer
'69 Victors
'68 Starfire
'51 Royal Enfield 250 'S'

#415504 - 01/26/12 7:18 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: Dennis B]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
dave jones Offline
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dave jones  Offline
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Posts: 3,524
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
Have you got the crank seal in the correct way round? It goes the opposite way round to the points seal.

Castrol 4t would be a good oil. Here in England I use 15W50 or 20w50 all year round because it doesn't get much below freezing point.

I reckon that the plunger pump is good and doesn't really wear out because it is always full of oil! If I had to replace it I too would get a Morgo plunger pump purely because it would be well made. The rotary pump is good, of course, but I wouldn't go that far.

I would also add that people can ride their bikes as much or as little as they like, in my opinion. There are no rules. Modern oils cope with corrosion a lot better than the stuff in the sixties.

Dave

Last edited by dave jones; 01/26/12 7:25 pm.
#415512 - 01/26/12 7:50 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: Dennis B]  
Joined: Aug 2001
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Dennis B Online content
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Dennis B  Online Content
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Posts: 866
Annapolis, MD
Hi Dave
Oh yes, I'm finally sure that I have a good seal of the right size in the right way
I had 2 other seals invert on me, the I.D. On both were to big
the seal in it now is the right size and I have confirmed it will hold at least 75psi

I felt the same way about the rotary pump, I didn't think I needed to go that far

“People can ride their bikes as much or as little as they like, in my opinion”
Indeed, I share your opinion

Cheers
Dennis B


Member # 182
'73 750 Commando
'72 Combat Commando
'71 Triumph Blazer
'69 Victors
'68 Starfire
'51 Royal Enfield 250 'S'

#416965 - 02/04/12 7:24 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: Dennis B]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Originally Posted By: Dennis B

I checked the return flow into the oil tank and it looks normal (hot or cold)


The return oil flow is no indication of anything in this case as it is effectively a separate pump whose sole job is to return the oil in the sump back to the tank.

The guys at Morgo told me that the reason for their pumps better performance was only due to its better tolerances so it seems likely to be at least 80% BS that there is much difference.

#417351 - 02/06/12 9:05 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: Dennis B]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 31
David Manuell Offline
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David Manuell  Offline
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Posts: 31
West Sussex
Dennis

If it makes you feel better about your purchase; I bought a Morgo high capacity plunger pump about 30 years ago for my 1978 Tiger and about 70,000 miles later it's still doing a good job. I fitted a 2nd hand Smiths pressure gauge instead of the pressure switch at about the same time and it always shows 70 psi running, dropping to 35 - 40 at tickover when hot. No idea how accurate it is, but it's been consistent all these years.

Always used 20/50 - (apart from when I went to the South of France once and used straight 50 - but it felt like treacle when kicking it cold).

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with the standard pump, and it's way too long ago for me to remember what difference in pressures the Morgo made. I remember I was paranoid about oil because I had a couple of instances where one of the non-return valve balls got stuck open by fragments of RTV. Luckily I learned that lesson without suffering any damage and restrict it's use to bathrooms. I also fitted a Commando filter to the return line - now replaced by element inside the frame.

#417500 - 02/07/12 11:23 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: Dennis B]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Offline
John Healy  Offline



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
David: The pump you replaced had the exact same volume as the Morgo you replaced it with. The Morgo isn't any less susceptible to swarf unseating either of the check balls in the pump.

Unless you are in a Summer climate like Mexico, or near it on the U.S. Border, 50 weight oil has no place in this engine. Your engines rod bearings require flow, not pressure. The natural pumping action of the bearing itself produces the oil pressure required, not the pump. There is now way the pump can generate the 1,000s of pounds of pressure required to keep the shells from contacting the crankshaft during compression and combustion.

You need flow because plain bearings generate a lot of heat and they need the flow of oil to cool them! With most wear happening during start-up it is extremely important to follow the manufactures instructions as to the proper oil to use at the ambient air temperature the bike is being operated in. If it is too heavy for the ambient air temperature you don't get the needed flow to cool the bearing and you can damage the bearings each time you start the bike from cold.


#417610 - 02/08/12 4:27 pm Re: Oil Pressure Problems [Re: Dennis B]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Offline
John Healy  Offline



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
Just thought I would follow up:

http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=geometrical_parameters_of_engine_bearings

This is not to understate the importance of oil pressure, but in itself it is not what protects rod bearings from failure. If it wasn't for the natural pumping action of the bearing itself we would not be able to use plain bearings at all. The pump is there to fill the cavity with oil and provide copious amounts of oil flow for cooling.

Also Triumph engines have center feed crankshafts. Unlike BSA and Tridents where oil pressure has to overcome centrifugal force to get into the crankshaft, the Triumph pump does not have to overcome the crank trying to push oil back toward the pump. It is why we don't see catastrophic failures when the feed oil seal inverts and the engine looses most of the oil pressure. Eventually bad things will happen, but you don't see almost immediate catastrophic failure as you do with a triple. Now, if the pump stops outright all bets are off.
John


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