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#416177 - 01/30/12 9:44 pm T150 common sense engine mods ***  
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I am putting together an engine to put into a norton featherbed frame, its a 1969 dated t150, what can i do without increasing the capacity to add to the performance and reliability ? Electronic ignition is taken as a given but anything else ? Breathing ? Porting ?

Thanks.

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#416230 - 01/31/12 1:53 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: bon
add to the performance and reliability

. After reading particularly John Healy's posts over the years, I'd start with basics like making sure all the shafts are parallel, the crankcase top is parallel with the horizontal plane of the crankshaft, the bores are perpendicular to the top and bottom surfaces of the block, etc., etc.

. Enlarge the main oilways to/from the pump to the late T160 size (there's a thread on the TOL forum about enlarging the oilways to the centre mains).

. Depending how early your engine is, it may have pumped feed to the cams; usual mod. is to crimp/blank these off, splash feed is more than adequate.

. I'd put in an aftermarket high-flow oil pump but, if you can't afford one, the standard pump often benefits from a going-over to make sure everthing's square/parallel.

. Even the standard clutch assembly can be relieved of several pounds, or you can spend on lightweight clutch components from the likes of Dave Madigan ('DMadigan' on here and TOL) and Triples Rule. Several people, including Dave, can help with ideas on crank lightening.

. Definitely fit new rods - ally rods have a fatigue life and any original triple rod is old; finding out one reached the end of that life while fitted to an engine is never good for the wallet or heart rate. sick Usual recommendation is Carillo or Arrow steel rods, but MAP do new alloy rods.

. Consider a 5-speed 'box. However, because it's difficult persuading twin owners that their old boneshakers are ok with 4-speeds, 5-speed 'boxes ain't ever cheap. frown Nevertheless, even if re-fitting a 4-speed 'box, enlarge the main bearing to the size fitted to later 4-speed (and then 5-speed) triples; it's much easier to do the necessary (small amount of) machining to an empty crankcase than try and do it later with a file when you do find a 5-speed 'box.

Originally Posted By: bon
Breathing ? Porting ?

Porting can be a bit of a 'mare on the triple engine because the head bolts are too close together to enlarge particularly the inlet ports circular; however, there are other ways and means. Also, it depends which company cast the head! crazy There's a lot of good information in "Triumph Tuning" by Stan Shenton plus if you ask the question on the TOL forum.

However, personally, I wouldn't go mad on tuning unless I was planning on racing. In good standard form, these engines were capable of propelling a 450lb-dry (so much more withe fuel, oil and rider) bike to over 125mph; you're putting it in a lighter bicycle. smile

Hth.

Regards,

#416236 - 01/31/12 2:40 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Lightening rotating parts will lessen wear and help acceleration. The crank:

The clutch:

... are two of the major parts. The chainwheel is another. You can put a ball bearing in the inner primary to hold the chainwheel from floating:

Fix the ports, the intakes can be cleaned up to increase the flow:

Your head probably is an HDA which are much better than AM:

but still can be improved.
Instead of buying a new pump, you can change the drive to increase the speed using Virago parts:

Attention to details makes a big difference.

#416243 - 01/31/12 3:21 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Thanks stuart and dmadigan, do you happen to have a drawing or sketch of how much metal is to be removed from the crank ? Does it need to be rebalanced when this work is done or does having equal amounts of steel removed from each crank weight retain the balance ? Also if i were to have the crank nitrided or tuftrided do they warp ? Is it worth bothering with ?

What about compression ratios ? Whats best ? And cam's too , are the factory cams ok for fast use ? Does using a 4 speed box impair the acceleration and speed ?

I have a copy of stan shentons triumph tuning , but to be honest there isn't much on the triples in it.

#416270 - 01/31/12 10:55 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: bon
if i were to have the crank nitrided or tuftrided do they warp ?

If you're in GB, P&M offer an exchange crank service where the new one will be lightened, 4th oilway drilled and (I think) tuftrided. If you aren't in GB, I'd be inclined to go with the advice of your chosen expert.

Originally Posted By: bon
What about compression ratios ? Whats best ?

Standard is around 9:1 to 9.5:1. With what any of us have available for normal fuel, imho going higher is more pain than gain - far less pain and more gain from a big-bore kit.

Originally Posted By: bon
cam's too , are the factory cams ok for fast use ?

There are slightly better cams for road use but, again, no substantial gain. You have to bear in mind that none of this stuff is:-

a. cheap;

b. any use 'til you've done the basics I outlined in my first post - all those 125+mph speeds you see in contemporary press tests were with engines that had simply been hand-built by experts. The engines weren't radically modified because, if one blew up on test, or the magazine decided to take it to bits, discovering it was full of special bits would've been embarassing.

So, depending what you start with, the basics can reap big rewards, and you've got to do 'em anyway; thereafter, tuning gets you only incremental gains, unless you're willing to spend big on big-bore, stroked crank.

A few years ago, a friend of mine, already with a bored-'n'-stroked engine in a genuine factory Rob North frame, came away from P&M having handed over four grand for what he said would fit in a shoe box. He said, "I'm thinking I could buy a second-hand Fireblade for less and go faster out of the dealer's showroom".

Originally Posted By: bon
Does using a 4 speed box impair the acceleration and speed ?

4-speed and 5-speed top are the same (1:1), 4-speed 1st is a little higher than 5-speed 1st. Just mho but, with both T160's and an early T150, I like the 5-speed more.

Originally Posted By: bon
stan shentons triumph tuning ,
there isn't much on the triples in it.

There is about the porting, and solutions if you break through into the head bolts' tunnels. At the risk of telling you something you know already, Stan was the racing team manager for Boyer's of Bromley, one of the largest British Triumph dealers (and I think still a Stinkley dealer), the team regularly challenged (and beat) the factory bikes. I believe he's also the person we have to thank confused for the 'Boyer' part of Boyer-Bransden electronic ignitions. whistle

Hth.

Regards,

#416271 - 01/31/12 11:11 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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I was thinking about a big bore kit , i know people like map in florida do them , is there any issues with them ? I heard dave degens of dresda (mr.triton) advises against them as the head gasket joint is too difficult to seal and they blow gaskets. Any truth in this ?
I think its clear the way to go is just lightening and matching the various components and keeping things fairly stock, i think this combined with the lighter weight of the rest of the machine should mean its plenty fast enough.
Thanks.

#416283 - 01/31/12 1:10 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: bon
big bore kit , i know people like map in florida do them , is there any issues with them ? I heard dave degens of dresda (mr.triton) advises against them as the head gasket joint is too difficult to seal and they blow gaskets. Any truth in this ?

Mmmm ... this is a question you should ask on the TOL forum, simply because there's lots of first-hand experience. There are something like half-a-dozen different big-bore kits - P&M can do you a bored-'n'-stroked 973cc in the original silhouette that'll give around 100bhp for racing. smirk Big-bore kits for the triples have been around since God and Norman Hyde were boys.

Money no object, I'd fit the T160's with 850 kits and live with any minor head gasket issues. But that's more because T160's are lardy old lumps compared to a Triton and I'd go mainly for more mid-range, although I might gear for a 130 top speed for the bragging rights. laughing

Originally Posted By: bon
the way to go is just lightening and matching the various components and keeping things fairly stock, i think this combined with the lighter weight of the rest of the machine should mean its plenty fast enough.

Bear in mind that you can start off this way then, if it ain't fast enough for you, go for a big-bore kit; it should then be a bolt-on without the need for major engine work.

Hth.

Regards,

#416727 - 02/03/12 12:39 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: Stuart]  
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Hi Stuart ,

if you use one of the better kits out there then there are no issue on head gasket leakage... yes there was on the stock muffs bored to take a bonneville size 71mm liner and other issues in the sleeves getting out of shape and burning heaps of oil ... the decent kits I have used with good experiences are Triples Rule (these are fitted to the Manx BSA Rocket 3s ) or Nova or P&M ... on a road bike stock studs are fine .... on a race bike we install another 8 pull downs to assist the head gaskets with seriously high compression and very high revs .... I had no Head gasket issues at the Manx GP on bikes that ran 71.6mm pistons and at 8500-9000RPM for long periods on 12.5-1 pistons .. a good a test as is possible IMHO...

Steve

#416742 - 02/03/12 2:18 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: snibor]  
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Originally Posted By: snibor
Hi Stuart ,

if you use one of the better kits out there then there are no issue on head gasket leakage... yes there was on the stock muffs bored to take a bonneville size 71mm liner and other issues in the sleeves getting out of shape and burning heaps of oil ... the decent kits I have used with good experiences are Triples Rule (these are fitted to the Manx BSA Rocket 3s ) or Nova or P&M ... on a road bike stock studs are fine .... on a race bike we install another 8 pull downs to assist the head gaskets with seriously high compression and very high revs .... I had no Head gasket issues at the Manx GP on bikes that ran 71.6mm pistons and at 8500-9000RPM for long periods on 12.5-1 pistons .. a good a test as is possible IMHO...

Steve


Wow , what sort of speeds were you getting around the island with that set up steve ?

Another thing i meant to ask about the trident engine is are hydraulic clutches available ? I hear the standard clutch is heavy , i have had problem with clutch cable life on heavy clutches before, a hydraulic set up sounds good.

#416787 - 02/03/12 8:49 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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This is how I cut my crank. Yours will be different depending upon your rods and pistons.

There are a couple people besides me that make hydraulic clutches:

However, the hydraulics does not reduce the pull by any great amount. You still have to move the spring the same distance. It does self adjust, eliminating that problem.

#416813 - 02/03/12 10:34 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: DMadigan]  
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Thanks mr.madigan ,
What do tridents use as a flywheel ? Is it the combined weight of the crank and the heavy clutch ? Can reducing weight go too far ?

I don't mind the hydraulic clutch being heavy but i have had problems in the recent past of getting decent quality clutch cables , the nipples pull off leaving the bike stranded. Are the kits expensive ?

I am thinking a hydraulic clutch , electric starter fitted , that it would be very like a modern triumph except its a meriden (via small heath) made machine.

#416873 - 02/04/12 6:59 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Originally Posted By: bon
Originally Posted By: snibor
Hi Stuart ,

if you use one of the better kits out there then there are no issue on head gasket leakage... yes there was on the stock muffs bored to take a bonneville size 71mm liner and other issues in the sleeves getting out of shape and burning heaps of oil ... the decent kits I have used with good experiences are Triples Rule (these are fitted to the Manx BSA Rocket 3s ) or Nova or P&M ... on a road bike stock studs are fine .... on a race bike we install another 8 pull downs to assist the head gaskets with seriously high compression and very high revs .... I had no Head gasket issues at the Manx GP on bikes that ran 71.6mm pistons and at 8500-9000RPM for long periods on 12.5-1 pistons .. a good a test as is possible IMHO...

Steve


Wow , what sort of speeds were you getting around the island with that set up steve ?

Another thing i meant to ask about the trident engine is are hydraulic clutches available ? I hear the standard clutch is heavy , i have had problem with clutch cable life on heavy clutches before, a hydraulic set up sounds good.


Hi Bon

fastest speed was 148 MPH through Sulby Straight and a 105MPH average speed lap from a standing start .... but the top speed was limited because we needed more gearing .. the 18T offset gearbox sprocket (the only one available last year ) is to small for the Island and forces to small a rear sprocket to the point where we had to fit a motocross slipper on the top of the swing arm pivot to stop the chain chain sawing the swing arm ...
we have 20T gearbox for this year which will give more options on the rear ..

steve

#416874 - 02/04/12 7:07 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Hi Bon

typically 7Lbs off the crank is a good amount .. any more than that doesn't really help and can make the bike a tad difficult to ride ...

an alloy clutch or lightened clutch is a good thing and an alloy chain wheel on the cush drive as well ... I use all the above ...

As Dave says hydraulics do not really make the clutch any lighter but helps with adjustment ... a good venhill cable will help no end with the clutch action as will fitting a slightly thicker clutch plate (approx 7mm ) this gets the spring off the start of compression and slightly pre loaded and removes the first bit of compression which is the heavy bit of pulling the clutch lever ...a triple clutch if setup properly and a decent cable should be a two finger job anyways ..

steve

Last edited by snibor; 02/04/12 7:08 am.
#416881 - 02/04/12 10:14 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: snibor]  
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Hi Bon,

Originally Posted By: snibor
a good venhill cable will help no end with the clutch action as will fitting a slightly thicker clutch plate (approx 7mm )
...a triple clutch if setup properly and a decent cable should be a two finger job anyways

Definitely.

While it's getting off the point of this particular thread, when you get into actually building the engine, Dave (and Steve?) should be able to advise about setting up the clutch and primary drive parts to check for flex; I recall Dave posting about this some time ago.

Hth.

Regards,

#416882 - 02/04/12 10:18 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: snibor]  
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Bon ..

I can vouch for Steve's light clutch action as I was struggling with my T150V clutch and just could not get what I felt was a good action.

Then I slide on to Steve's/ Snibor's Hyde and I was totally blown away by the clutch action ~ and when he explained it was simply a quality cable I was all but on my butt!

He was dead right~ after I fitted a new Venhill the whole thing was transformed ~ Magical !! bigt beerchug

Last edited by Stuart SS; 02/04/12 10:20 am.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#416883 - 02/04/12 10:31 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: snibor]  
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Hi Steve,

Hopefully, this'll help Bon as well, ...

Originally Posted By: snibor
an alloy clutch or lightened clutch is a good thing and an alloy chain wheel on the cush drive as well

On top of the weight off the crank, how much do you think you're losing from the clutch and that end of the primary drive?

And, if I were to do the work in stages, would I be right in thinking it's better to lighten the clutch and that end of the primary drive first, which'd give the primary chain an easier time (a major consideration on T160's grin )?

Regards,

#416888 - 02/04/12 11:41 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: Stuart]  
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Hi Stuart ,

the weight off the crank, off the clutch and chain wheel will all help and make the bike much more rideable in that you can accelerate faster and back off faster by just closing the throttle ...
The rotational weight (inc G forces ) which is a lot more than the actual reduced physical weight by a factor of 1000s when those parts are being spun at 8000RPM in the case of the crank and approx half that RPM at the clutch and chain wheel , provides much better control backing off into corners to slow down because of the benefits of fast deceleration and without the over use of brakes.. and makes for much faster corner speed and with reduced compression of the front suspension which you dont want unless you have to .

hope that makes sense ..

have a look at these two clips which a good example on a triple of using the gearbox and minimal brakes ..

Trident and R3 at the Manx 1

Trident at the Manx

steve

Last edited by snibor; 02/04/12 12:03 pm.
#416991 - 02/04/12 9:24 pm Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Hi Bon I have a T150 in a featherbed with all the modifications of the above pictures plus 1000cc strocker crank and big bore cylinders 51B megacycle cams and quaife MK2 gerbox it was a dream for me when i was student at the high school. but i want to tell you that you don't need all of them.I want to tell you also have you ride a very good restored t150 without mods to know what do you want from this bike?trident and rocket three are very quick without to do many mods!!if you go to do many modifications it's usually to have many troubles,I told you that like a friend,my t150 costs to me only the spares for the engine 15.000euros.only the big bore cylinders have 1500 sterling pounds and the omega forged pistons cost 450sterling pounds the modifications for the clutch and i mean to remove all the std parts with PANDM CLUTCH cost only 1500pounds the modifications to the crank like cross drill tuftrided lightened strocker etc1200pounds doyou want more informations for prices?If i rebuild now a trident the first item i bought the high capacity oil pump second change the torringhtons in the clutch, with real bearings GREAT IMPROVE but very difficult mod and you will not need to change your std parts in your clutch.fit MAP RODS they are the best and your engine will vibrate less than with carrillos and cost the half of the price of steel rods,go to megacycle cams but not 51B THE ENGINE AWAKE after 7000rpm!!!Go for omega forged pistons don't go to big bore you don't need and yes it's difficult to seal put cooper gaskets to head and rocker boxes and use on these gaskets only 574 loctite, if you want more horse power spend money to special work on your cylinder head fit AMAL carbs MK2 work very well on triples finally fit one set of the special pushrod tubes of Dave Madigan's store they will keep oil tight your engine.Good luck!!

#417022 - 02/05/12 12:14 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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All I have done to date is a gas flowed the head.
And a genius tripler mate "Bob" in Brisbane who works alongside of Snibor/ Steve ~
( See the latest video of them on a brand spanking new Trident ~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjunMkOyzsY )

Bob built me a superb set of Amals ~ see my post on site;
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=272398#Post272398 .

Now I lightened the clutch. The latter has been a impressive notably improvement ~

So much I have ordered a lightened chain wheel from LP Williams ~
( I stuffed up here as I ASS-umed Steve was overseas on business and in fact he was not and he has all these bits I need and more in his shed)~

But small beginnings ~ I debated the revs issue with Steve as he thrives on high revs ~ I argued that I am happy around 5-6K.

But even now as I make inroads into this field of gleaning more performance I am sneaking that tacho around the range !!

'Mue- aa-hahaha !!

Last edited by Stuart SS; 02/05/12 12:16 am.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#417043 - 02/05/12 2:18 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Thanks snibor , kostas and stuartss , i am sucking all this triple knowledge and tips up , this is exactly what i am looking for, i don't want to over do the tuning but you all know you can't help adding a few "go faster" bits , if even only for bragging rights.
I will probabily go for a new set of rods just to be safe, and maybe a set of slightly sportier cams if funds allow. I hope to get to the isle of man for the tt , i won't make it this year but next year if i am lucky.

#417051 - 02/05/12 3:25 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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The standard cylinder barrel is bored and faced square from the top.That should still be correct until someone bores it again.There can be out-of-parallel errors at the bottom face.
This could equally apply to after-market barrels.

Personally,I think these engines have too much cam duration for their own good as a street engine.It might be different with a long-stroke crank.

Copper rocker box gaskets can save you having to re-torque and adjust valves every 10 or 20 miles,after a re-build.

Check the runout and clearance on the cush-drive.You can skim the spider and bush the side-plates to fix it.

I found that reducing the intake port to about 28mm between the guide and the valve-seat,caused no loss of flow.Enlarging the port almost square between the valve guide and head bolt holes helped.You'll still never get it to flow as much as the round port entry,even at 12mm valve-lift.I can't understand why some heads are opened to 30mm entry.

Tuftriding the crank sounds good,but you'd want it done in a cradle to minimize distorion.

I think the Porsche valve adjusters,like Dave Madigan uses,are a good idea;as long as you square up the geometry from the pivot ball to shaft centre (square to valve-stem) at around mid-lift.You'll get faster inital lift and less valve wear.

#417053 - 02/05/12 3:30 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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The exhaust system has a major influence on power and what sort of power spread you have. I've made up a few different types when I owned a T150V. I like the sound of the stock system with sportier mufflers, but a large bore 3 into 1 can really add some zoom at higher RPM. I also experimented with a large dia three pipe set up with some connecting tubes about half way along. It may not have had quite the top end of the 3 into 1 but was close and sounded very cool. I ended up with big valves and 32mm dellortos and 880cc big bore kit. It started with 855cc but rebored it over the years. I guess it would be fun trying a different cam but the stock one didn't seem to be holding it back. I think an 850-860 big bore kit is really worth fitting along with making the head breath, I never tried 'D' shaped ports in a triple but it would be interesting to do.


mark
#417054 - 02/05/12 3:34 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
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Posts: 52
Gentry's Garage Offline
BritBike Forum member
Gentry's Garage  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 52
LaLa Land in Cali
I have made this tread a "sticky". Great Job Guyz!

#417068 - 02/05/12 6:32 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 239
Stuart SS Offline
BritBike Forum member
Stuart SS  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 239
Australia (FNQ)
Thanks Mark P.

I neglected to add I fitted one of Paul (Bryant) Viking big bore one piece exhaust and T120 mufflers ~ I think I may be able to get more tweak out of the system as it is pretty full on straight through as I see it.

And for what it's worth I spent yonks polishing the rockers !

And I gave up on copper gaskets real early ~ despite all my efforts to surface the head and rocker box surfaces and every other flat surface I could ~ the copper gaskets failed me every time..

As stated I feel I can glean much more and I am stil waiting for Snibor/ Steve to turn up on the front step armed with his valve timing gear!

This was early days but promising (despite the pitfalls yet to catch me !)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iASWUcVB6...mp;feature=plcp

Last week ~






Last edited by Stuart SS; 02/05/12 6:37 am.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#417077 - 02/05/12 11:34 am Re: T150 common sense engine mods [Re: bon]  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,332
Mark Parker Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mark Parker  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,332
Bega NSW Australia
I used copper rocker box gaskets for years, ones I cut out myself, but always glued down with 3bond supersealer, which I also used on the head gasket and pushrod seals, rocker box and head gaskets never leaked or seeped but pushrod seals could be annoying. I like the way my A65 has them in the block.


mark
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