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Bike suddenly dies-solved #406782
12/03/11 12:02 am
12/03/11 12:02 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
JD Offline OP

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline OP

Moto-Amish
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Posts: 1,885
Maryland
I'm hoping someone else has had this problem. I pulled up to a stoplight yesterday and again tonight and the bike suddenly dies. Here's how it happens. I'm in 1st gear, engine speed around 2500-3000 rpm, slowing down. Completely let off the throttle, pull in the clutch-and the bike suddenly dies. I pop the clutch and the bike comes back alive and keeps idling. However, if I approach a stoplight and gradually let off the throttle, instead of suddenly letting it go, after pulling in the clutch everything seems fine. I sat in my driveway without the bike in gear, reved the engine, and let go the throttle suddenly and it didn't die. At first I thought it was an electrical problem, so I redid a number of connections last night and can't find anything grounding out.

1970 Lightning, Boyer ignition, resleeved carbs.

Thanks!


Josh
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Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #406836
12/03/11 2:04 pm
12/03/11 2:04 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,881
Cape Carteret, NC
M
Mr Mike Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,881
Cape Carteret, NC
JD,
Tis the nature of the beast. I have noticed this from time to time especially after long runs at speed. Set your idle a little higher and I generally blip the throttle upon disengaging the clutch as I pull to a stop to make sure it doesn't stall. It is definitely in the carbs which are a device that does its best to provide a uniform mixture. Modern carbs like a Mik do much better but they are not quite so simple as an AMAL. Singles do it too. You can minimize it with carb tweaking but a little higher idle really seems to help. I use to try to idle my singles real low but have given that up. People these days are not very patient for a guy kickstarting a hot big single while the light is green.

Mr Mike

Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #406859
12/03/11 5:08 pm
12/03/11 5:08 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,813
Seattle
Alex Offline

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Seattle
I, too have experienced this before...but I, for the life of me can't remember what I did to fix it other than check all the carbs' condition and settings. I don't think that it's acceptable for your bike to die upon acceleration. With I had more for ya, but I think you know of and have been through all the pertinent stuff.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #406877
12/03/11 6:26 pm
12/03/11 6:26 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,801
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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Posts: 3,801
argyll. scotland, uk
There is a bit of "you get that with them " going on here, the more cacked up and out of sync your carbs are then the more this will happen.
As you slow down with the throttle closed, the high manifold vac draws fuel/air through the pilot circuit, if this is set a little rich then it will flood the engine, try weakening the pilot fuel circuit around a 1/4 turn out at the adjusters and see if the problem gets better or worse. This is a compromise, over weakening will give poor throttle response when reopening to pull away.
Also running a cool spark plug say an N3 Champ instead of the slightly warmer N4 will exacerbate this stalling after a closed throttle.

other possibilities , a weak spark, partially fouled plugs ( see above), possibly a poor coil HT lead combo.
As previously mentioned if the pilot fuel air circuits are blocked or have crap floating around intermittently then this will not help either.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #407145
12/05/11 3:43 am
12/05/11 3:43 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
JD Offline OP

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline OP

Moto-Amish
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
Thanks everyone for the responses.

It doesn't die on acceleration; it only wants to "die" when warmed up and I pop the throttle suddenly open. Since I don't pop the throttle open like that while riding, I've learned to live with it, since I have resleeved carbs and can't do anything except file down the slide which is a permanent move.

On the more immediate note with the bike dying on deceleration, this is a recent thing. I don't think I've changed my riding habits in the last few days. I've only had enough time this weekend to take apart the carbs, clean both out, verify float height and reassemble. The left carb float had somehow migrated to where the top of the float was even with the top of the bowl. I changed out the float bow, readjusted that float height and verified the right float level was .08" below the bowl. Since they're now both even I'll ride to work tomorrow and see how she fares.

Mike, did you make it up to New Bern for the flotilla yesterday? I was in New Bern kayaking and stopped by the Ada Mae and found out they needed and extra crew member so I ended up sailing with her in the flotilla. Lots of nicely lit up boats! Your man Skip Waters was there as the MC.


Josh
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #407198
12/05/11 1:55 pm
12/05/11 1:55 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
JD Offline OP

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline OP

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Posts: 1,885
Maryland
Took my ride this morning. Bike still dies on sudden throttle close. Carbs are fully clean now and synced as far as throttle opening and even lift. I'll try new spark plugs and then head on to the pilot air screw.


Josh
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #407233
12/05/11 4:48 pm
12/05/11 4:48 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content
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John Healy  Online Content
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
Bike still dies on sudden throttle close.


This is the symptom a Concentric or MKII will displayed when fitted to a 4 stroke engine with the pilot jet in the 2 stroke position. It is the reason AMAL moved the pilot jet in the first place.

It is a symptom of things being lean:
a. check location of pilot jet.
b. clean and SIZE pressed in pilot jet. It isn't a hole, but a precision jet.
c. Clean the two transfer ports either side of the back edge of the slide especially the smaller one nearest the engine.


Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: John Healy] #407237
12/05/11 5:14 pm
12/05/11 5:14 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
JD Offline OP

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline OP

Moto-Amish
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Posts: 1,885
Maryland
Originally Posted By: John Healy
the pilot jet in the 2 stroke position.


John, could you explain that? Are you referring to the threaded, removable pilot jet?

As far as the other three steps go, a) I only have the pressed in pilot jet, but the carb is threaded to accept a removable pilot jet; b) I have cleaned the pilot jet on numerous occasions with a #78 drill bit from both sides. I can see a pinpoint of light through them. c) Both transfer ports are open as carb cleaner jets out each when sprayed through the pilot jet.

Allen, the bike died on my three times this morning at various stops. Twice when it was cold within a couple of blocks of my house, and once after about 8 miles of riding ~50mph when I got to the office.


Josh
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #407249
12/05/11 5:49 pm
12/05/11 5:49 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content
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John Healy  Online Content
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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
On the Concentric the removable (screwed in) pilot jet is the 2 stroke position.

Seeing that you have drilled out the back side of the carburetor to access the pressed in pilot jet, is it leaking air?

The fact that something is spraying out of the two orifices does not indicate they are clean. Just that there is a hole large enough to allow some fluid to pass. These two orifices, either side of the slide, should not be looked at as holes. The amount of fuel they deliver is just as important to low speed operationas the amount of fuel delivered by the main jet is to full throttle running! You wouldn't look at a partially blocked main jet and say that it must be OK because you saw some gas spray out of it. Would you?

Remember Carburetors have jets. A 45 caliber pistol leaves a hole.


Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #407250
12/05/11 5:52 pm
12/05/11 5:52 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content
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John Healy  Online Content
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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
Oh, and remember, the proper operation of the idle circuit is DEPENDENT upon manifold vacuum. No vacuum, or erratic vacuum, and no idle.


Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #407253
12/05/11 5:57 pm
12/05/11 5:57 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
JD Offline OP

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline OP

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Maryland
Thanks John, I'll check out the two orifices tonight when I get home and I'll pack grease in the blanking screw on the back side of both carburetors before I head from the office. Any suggestions on how to manually clean the two orifices, besides spraying carb cleaner through them?


Josh
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #407336
12/05/11 11:55 pm
12/05/11 11:55 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
JD Offline OP

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline OP

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Maryland
Riding home tonight the problem got worse and worse. I couldn't let the engine get below 2k rpm. And that's when I noticed my ammeter needle dipping lower than normal. I got home and noticed that when I let off the throttle the lights dimmed VERY slightly (my low beam burned out yesterday, so I'm running on high beams, exacerbating the problem). So then I had an epiphany. I took out the battery and took it over to the auto parts store. There, they gave me the good news that the battery failed their load test. Problem solved! So, Boyer really will crap out below 12v. I checked the battery only a couple of months ago and ASSUMED it was still good. Meanwhile, it should've been the first thing I checked...lesson learned. However, my right cylinder has never wanted to idle (left cylinder is perfect), so I did learn some things from Mr. Healy that I can apply to my situation in attempt to get the bike to idle well.


Josh
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: ] #407415
12/06/11 2:03 pm
12/06/11 2:03 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
JD Offline OP

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline OP

Moto-Amish
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Posts: 1,885
Maryland
Originally Posted By: 1968BSA
There has to be a reason why your battery crapped out...


Allan-absolutely. The battery was a cheap battery, is about 3 years old, has only been used for about the last 9 months, and has never been on a tender. As for the bulb, it's probably older than 15 since it's the one I got with the bike 6-7 years ago, and the bike was in such bad shape when I bought it that I would surmise it hadn't been ridden in at least 10 years.


Josh
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #407470
12/06/11 6:52 pm
12/06/11 6:52 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content
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John Healy  Online Content
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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
I'm not disagreeing John, but I have a screw in pilot jet, there is no pressed jet also, and the bike ticks over at about 5-600 rpm, I do not tend to suffer with this issue,

Allan:
It wasn't an idle problem that caused AMAL to move the pilot jet, but stalling on the over-run. It was a real problem, especially on the Triumph Daytona.


Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #407544
12/07/11 1:52 am
12/07/11 1:52 am
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,661
East Bethany New York
Dick Harris Offline
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Dick Harris  Offline
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East Bethany New York
Allen,wouldn,t you want a smaller cutaway if it stumbles on accelleration????? Dick

Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #409319
12/18/11 9:20 pm
12/18/11 9:20 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
JD Offline OP

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline OP

Moto-Amish
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
I think I finally solved my problem. I got my second battery in. Charged it overnight, performed Whatley's simple load test, and the battery stayed well above 12v. I pushed the bike out of the garage, went through my normal startup routine. The bike just wouldn't start. Now I'm really irritated. So I've eliminated a bad battery as the problem. After more than 20 kicks, the bike actually tried to start up. Another 10 or so kicks and me almost stroking out, the bike finally started. I hop on, the bike is somewhat idling, I pull in the clutch and the bike dies. I kicked it over, but couldn't get it to start again so I hopped off the bike, another 5 or so kicks and the bike starts. Again, I pull in the clutch and the bike dies. Weird. Start it up, pull in the clutch, the bike dies. So, it's acting like a kill switch. Very odd. The last time, I start the bike, rev the engine and pull the clutch lever in and out. Every time I did this, the bike missed.

So, back to the garage, off with the outer timing side cover to inspect for any wear in the wires. I don't see any, but I do see some poorly crimped connections coming out of the stator plate--the only one's I didn't redo several weeks ago. I lightly tugged on one and it came off in my hand. Out with some new connectors and, with everything crimped and moved to where I am absolutely sure the clutch won't interfere, the bike starts up, first kick. Pull in the clutch and the bike keeps going. I suppose that the clutch ramp was pulling on the wires, shorting them out. Due to a lack of time, I only took it for a ride around the block and it idled as it always has, never missing a beat until I turned off the ignition.


Josh
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #409349
12/19/11 2:32 am
12/19/11 2:32 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,972
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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DavidP  Offline

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Gnashville
So, what have we learned, class?
Once again, 90% of all "carb" problems are electrical, especially with the black (box) magic which is electronic ignition.
The weakest spot, and the first suspect, in all of them is the pickup and connections from the pickup. This is a very small ac voltage and susceptible to rf, other sources of ac, and anything but perfect connections.
Definitely not the place to use bodger crimp-ons.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: DavidP] #409417
12/19/11 3:32 pm
12/19/11 3:32 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
JD Offline OP

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline OP

Moto-Amish
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Maryland
Originally Posted By: DavidP
Definitely not the place to use bodger crimp-ons.


The crimp-ons were those supplied by Boyer when I bought the ignition years ago. For the life of me, I can't remember if they came already crimped on the extension wires, or if the fault lies in my crimping abilities, or apparent lack thereof. Anyhow, they now pass a rigorous tug test.

I rode to work this morning. It was a bear starting, but the temps were in the mid-20s. Once started though, the bike never missed a beat until I killed the ignition at the office. It was a pleasant but cold ride. I think I need some thicker gloves.


Josh
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: DavidP] #409427
12/19/11 5:03 pm
12/19/11 5:03 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,722
Central Virginia
Lannis Online content

Life member
Lannis  Online Content

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Posts: 12,722
Central Virginia
Originally Posted By: DavidP
So, what have we learned, class?
Once again, 90% of all "carb" problems are electrical, especially with the black (box) magic which is electronic ignition.
The weakest spot, and the first suspect, in all of them is the pickup and connections from the pickup. This is a very small ac voltage and susceptible to rf, other sources of ac, and anything but perfect connections.
Definitely not the place to use bodger crimp-ons.


And as an extension of that rule, 90% of electrical problems are bad batteries or bad grounds.

Most of the rest (including this one) are those cheap crimp connectors that Boyer supplies with their ignitions. There's BOUND to be something better. My upgrade alternator for my Guzzi (Euromoto) came with lovely, solid compression fittings that are stronger than the wire ....

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #409464
12/19/11 8:48 pm
12/19/11 8:48 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content
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John Healy  Online Content
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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
Most of the rest (including this one) are those cheap crimp connectors that Boyer supplies with their ignitions.


A connector is no better than the ability of the person to buy, and use, the proper tool.

I was checking out a popular Norton supplier's web page. In his Tech Tips he was proudly displaying a couple of "cold" soldered bullet connectors to illustrate how to do the job right! He hasn't even learned how to clean and "tin" the soldering iron tip in preparation to soldering.


Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #409515
12/20/11 1:59 am
12/20/11 1:59 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,972
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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DavidP  Offline

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Gnashville
I order Japanese connectors from these folks.
http://oregonmotorcycleparts.com/
They also sell the correct crimping tools. As Allan pointed out, the connectors are quite good.
Just replaced my Boyer with a Pazon. Time will tell how well the connection block holds up, but at least the wires are continuous from pickup to amplifier.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: JD] #409544
12/20/11 11:15 am
12/20/11 11:15 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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Sydney Australia
Quote:
The crimp-ons were those supplied by Boyer when I bought the ignition years ago. For the life of me, I can't remember if they came already crimped on the extension wires, or if the fault lies in my crimping abilities, or apparent lack thereof. Anyhow, they now pass a rigorous tug test.


Just because Boyer supplies these connectors does not mean that they are good for the job.
They were designed for 415V AC internal connections and as a consequence for their size also suitable for 20 A DC.
They were never designed for use on motorcycles and are too big to crimp properly on the thin wires Boyer ( and our bikes ) use.
The reason for fitting the wrong connectors ( correct size for the wire would be the red ones ) is that they are the right size to fit the Lucas bullet female connectors already on the bike.

Nearly every electrical failure our club members have had since I have been in the club ( 30 years ) has originated from these connectors and in particular the earth wire.

If you must use these connectors , remove the blue insulation, slip a couple of pieces of heat shrink tube over the wire and crimp it with an uninsulated crimp tool, the type that rolls the connector into two tubes as seen on modern Japanese bikes. Once you are happy with the integrity of the crimp slip the heat shrink over the wire and shrink each piece down over the joint and you will have a connection good enough for the next 60 years.

If you are really anal then a touch of solder to the connector end of the crimp ( not the wire end ) will make it a 200% job.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 12/20/11 11:24 am.

Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: BSA_WM20] #409554
12/20/11 1:54 pm
12/20/11 1:54 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
JD Offline OP

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline OP

Moto-Amish
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,885
Maryland
Originally Posted By: BSA_WM20
[quote]...remove the blue insulation, slip a couple of pieces of heat shrink tube over the wire and crimp it with an uninsulated crimp tool, the type that rolls the connector into two tubes as seen on modern Japanese bikes. Once you are happy with the integrity of the crimp slip the heat shrink over the wire and shrink each piece down over the joint and you will have a connection good enough for the next 60 years.


Did that. We'll see how it lasts.

On a side note, does the quality of the signal from the stator plate into the black box in any way affect the quality of the spark? I wouldn't think so, but figure I'd ask anyway. My thoughts are that it's simply an on/off type switch.


Josh
Re: Bike suddenly dies-solved [Re: JD] #409616
12/20/11 10:26 pm
12/20/11 10:26 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content
BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Online Content
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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,108
Boston, Massachusetts
I am not going to make any friends on either side of this, but this subject keeps getting revisited.

People on this site have railed at the connectors professionally installed on Boyer ignition boxes.

People who have neither the talent, or tools required, now enlightened by the internet, rush out and remove perfectly good connectors from their Boyer ignitions. In their place all sorts of connections are made, few in a workmanship like manner. I can say this because I have seen a lot of boxes that have "failed" and been returned to me for testing. Rarely is the box bad, but if the wiring on the rest of the bike looks like the new-improved connectors there isn't a chance this guy is going to be happy with his motorcycle.

Then we get the, "Bike suddenly dies," and this whole process repeats itself.

People rail at the connectors professionally installed on Boyer ignition boxes...

People who have neither the talent, or tools required, now enlightened by the internet, rush out and remove perfectly good connectors from their Boyer ignitions.

Then we get the, "Bike suddenly dies," and this whole process repeats itself.

And on and on we go ... till ad nauseam.

I don't know of a connector out there that doesn't require some understanding of the mechanics of how they work or are to be installed with the aid of REQUIRED specialized tooling. Over the past 25 years of testing Boyer ignitions under warranty I get to see the results of this effort to tell the World how wrong Boyer is and how right the expert is.


First photo: typical way I see terminals being installed.
Second Photo: Fair, but second crimp for the strain relief missing.
Third photo: Good, double crimped.
Fourth photo: Better, double crimped and second strain relief - shrink tubing.

Hers a good example of what I see testing the Boyer boxes:

First the Boyer box is wrapped in foam. To make things worse the box is then put into a closed tin can. This is the absolute wrong thing to do. The box requires air flow to allow it to cool. The box gets hot when used!!!

The original connectors were removed, I read on the internet that the Boyer ones were no good. This is what he replaced them with. Is it a wonder that he said his bike suddenly died? Now you are going to say this is the exception, but I am risking a lot of good will to tell you it isn't!!!!!!!!!


Re: Bike suddenly dies [Re: BSA_WM20] #409681
12/21/11 6:28 am
12/21/11 6:28 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,972
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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DavidP  Offline

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Gnashville
Originally Posted By: BSA_WM20

If you must use these connectors , remove the blue insulation, slip a couple of pieces of heat shrink tube over the wire and crimp it with an uninsulated crimp tool, the type that rolls the connector into two tubes as seen on modern Japanese bikes. Once you are happy with the integrity of the crimp slip the heat shrink over the wire and shrink each piece down over the joint and you will have a connection good enough for the next 60 years.

If you are really anal then a touch of solder to the connector end of the crimp ( not the wire end ) will make it a 200% job.

What can I say, I'm anal, I do all these things.
BUT, I don't buy connectors at the local, big-name auto-parts store. Those, red-blue-yellow connectors are for emergencies only.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
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