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Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? #408908
12/16/11 12:56 pm
12/16/11 12:56 pm
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 260
Houston, TX
H
HarveyH Offline OP
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HarveyH  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 260
Houston, TX
I would like to replace the rusty steel allen head screws on my 1970 A65 engine with stainless screws. However, the kits that MAP sells fit '66 to '69 and '71 up. Are the '70 models that much different than the surrounding years? Are there other sst fastener vendors besides MAP?

Thanks,

Harvey


1970 A65L (Yep, it's one of the "Y" bikes)
1942 HD45
1942 Boeing N2S-3
1930 Ford A
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Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: HarveyH] #408918
12/16/11 2:27 pm
12/16/11 2:27 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,235
arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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arkansas
What that means is there was a change from fine thread to the coarse thread in 68, but nobody ever remembers exactly when change occurred. Yours will be the one they are sayings fits 71 up.

Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: HarveyH] #408932
12/16/11 3:18 pm
12/16/11 3:18 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 244
Ohio
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BSAJIP Offline
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Ohio
HarveyH,

Check Gardner-Westcott also. I purchased stainless allen heads for my BSA from them.
BSAJIP

Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: HarveyH] #409003
12/17/11 12:57 am
12/17/11 12:57 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
Hi Harvey,

Originally Posted By: HarveyH
Are the '70 models that much different than the surrounding years?

Assuming we're talking about the 1/4" o.d. screws that mount things like the covers, BSA used only two threads on those screws - 1/4"BSF (British Standard Fine) and 1/4"UNC. 1/4"BSF is 26 tpi (threads per inch) so it looks 'fine' while 1/4"UNC is 20 tpi (threads per inch) so it looks 'coarse'.

While I disagree with the MAP dates, once you've identified the thread on your bike, 'fine' equates to the earlier dates and 'coarse' to the later ones.

Originally Posted By: 1968BSA
use plenty of copper grease incase the thread is wrong but the pitch is the same ( I think) but the angle of the thread is different, so if it seems tight going in, it might be that reason, but tease it in and it will fit without any damage

Disagree entirely: Alan is partly right, but confused ime.

With 1/4"BSF ('fine', 'early' thread), no-one ever made 1/4"BSF Allen screws, the closest you'll get is 1/4"Cycle (aka CEI and BSC). At just the 1/4" diameter, Cycle and BSF have the same 26 tpi but BSF has a 55-degree thread angle whereas Cycle/CEI/BSC has a 60-degree angle. Ime, the chance of this making a difference in a 41-year-old thread is less than me making a threesome with Angelina Jolie and Florence.

With 1/4"UNC ('coarse', 'late' thread), a similar situation exists in that, ime, Small Heath wasn't averse to cutting Whitworth/BSW instead of the correct UNC; again, same 20 tpi but Whitworth has a 55-degree angle while UNC is 60-degrees. Again, the chance of this making a difference in a 41-year-old thread is less than me making the aforementioned.

Otoh, what does make a difference is decades of plain old corrosion and/or d.p.o. filling the holes with gasket goo in successive doomed attempts to stop the oil leaking out. Anyone who fits new screws into old Britbike threaded holes without first cleaning them out thoroughly with a tap deserves all the cracked castings he gets (although the bike deserves a more-sympathetic owner frown ).

Fwiw, I take the time to measure the depth of each cleaned-out hole and the thickness of the casting the screw passes through. Very often I find I can fit a longer screw without it bottoming in the hole - more thread = more friction for the same tightening torque = less chance of a given screw coming loose in use. bigt

Originally Posted By: HarveyH
Are there other sst fastener vendors besides MAP?

'Tridentman' recently asked a similar question over on the Triumph Board - apparently, there is British Tools & Fasteners in the US, but they're still more expensive than ordering from one of the British vendors and paying the GB-US carriage ... frown

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: HarveyH] #409012
12/17/11 2:13 am
12/17/11 2:13 am
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 260
Houston, TX
H
HarveyH Offline OP
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HarveyH  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 260
Houston, TX
Thanks, Stuart, that's quite an education you gave us. I promise to put it to good use.

Harvey


1970 A65L (Yep, it's one of the "Y" bikes)
1942 HD45
1942 Boeing N2S-3
1930 Ford A
Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: HarveyH] #409056
12/17/11 1:16 pm
12/17/11 1:16 pm
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,569
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Sydney Australia
Also take a good look at the head sizes.
The original screws have a large head and to avoid damage to your cases you should get some washers at least as big as the philister heads on the original screws.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: HarveyH] #409117
12/17/11 9:05 pm
12/17/11 9:05 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,133
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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New Jersey USA
Stuart is correct in his reporting of my comments ref pricing of stainless fasteners.
However these comments were in the context of ordering stainless fasteners for the restoration of a complete bike---a lot of fasteners.
If you live in US and just want a small quantity then BT&F would be the best bet.
Basically for small quantities the higher price for the fastener from BT&F is more than counter balanced by the lower shipping costs compared with UK.
Whereas for larger quantities the lower price in UK for the fasteners more than counter balances the higher shipping costs.
HTH

Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: BSA_WM20] #409174
12/18/11 2:08 am
12/18/11 2:08 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi Trevor,

Originally Posted By: BSA_WM20
Also take a good look at the head sizes.
The original screws have a large head

Harvey doesn't have that option ...

Originally Posted By: HarveyH
I would like to replace the rusty steel allen head screws


Originally Posted By: BSA_WM20
to avoid damage to your cases you should get some washers at least as big as the philister heads on the original screws.

Ime, the heads on stainless Allen screws are the same o.d. as the original screws, whereas even 1/4" 'Small O.D.' washers (usually 7/16" o.d.) are too big to fit in the counterbore in some castings.

If you hunt through the parts books, sometimes 1/4" i.d., 3/8" o.d. washers are shown fitted under original screws; however, if you can actually find any of these listed under part number, ime you'll be gazing on true rocking-horse sh1t. smile

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: HarveyH] #409195
12/18/11 6:27 am
12/18/11 6:27 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,877
Gnashville
DavidP Online content

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Gnashville
In the US 1/4 20 stainless allens can be got at almost any Ace Hardware.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: Stuart] #409215
12/18/11 11:27 am
12/18/11 11:27 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,569
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Sydney Australia
Quote:
Ime, the heads on stainless Allen screws are the same o.d. as the original screws, whereas even 1/4" 'Small O.D.' washers (usually 7/16" o.d.) are too big to fit in the counterbore in some castings.

They have about 1/2 the surface ares as the original bolts which will put too much local force on the bottom of the counter bore and turn it into a counter sink and in time ( particularly if over tightened ) compress the alloy into the hole.

If you have troubles finding appropriate washers is it not rocket science to find some that will fill the hole then drill them out to fit the bolts.

I usually end up doing this in any case as now days most washers that we get down here are metric and do not fit properly in any case


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: BSA_WM20] #409222
12/18/11 12:05 pm
12/18/11 12:05 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
Hi Trevor,

Originally Posted By: BSA_WM20
Originally Posted By: Stuart
Ime, the heads on stainless Allen screws are the same o.d. as the original screws, whereas even 1/4" 'Small O.D.' washers (usually 7/16" o.d.) are too big to fit in the counterbore in some castings.

They have about 1/2 the surface ares as the original bolts

Having replace innumerable original British 1/4" engine case screws in the last 30-odd years, they have the same-diameter heads as the stainless Allen screws available in GB. Possibly Allen screws available in Australia have different-sized heads?

Originally Posted By: BSA_WM20
is it not rocket science to find some that will fill the hole then drill them out to fit the bolts.

By definition, the o.d. that'll fit in casing counterbores is 3/8" or 10mm, which means a 2BA, 3/16" or M5 washer. While it might not be rocket science, I suspect holding these to drill the holes out to 1/4" is beyond the tools or patience of most people reading this.

Otoh, I find that doing the whole job properly - cleaning, checking and trueing the mating surfaces, cleaning up the bottoms of the counterbores, etc. - means that screws don't have to be done up so tight they start chewing up the bottom of the counterbore again.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Stainless Allen Screws for '70 A65? [Re: HarveyH] #409235
12/18/11 2:36 pm
12/18/11 2:36 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,254
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Online content
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Mark Z  Online Content
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Posts: 4,254
Owego, NY, USA
As Stuart said, the screws don't have to be so tight as to gouge the cover, and the trueness of the mating surfaces is not critical, however:

The one mating surface that is important is the bottom one, the drain screw. It's prudent to find or fashion a copper washer for this screw. I found it easier to make a copper washer out of an old head gasket than to source one the right size. Just drill a 1/4" hole, rough-cut the o.d., put it on a screw, then grind or file the o.d. to fit the hole. Works the trick; doesn't leak.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.

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