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#405106 - 11/23/11 12:57 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Mirko]  
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Hi Mirko,

The big problems I have with the standard unit 350/500 rocker box oil feed parts are:-

1. although the feed pipe from the tank ends in a banjo, the bolt is not a proper banjo bolt (central drilling down the middle of the shank with drilling(s) across the shank to let oil in and out);

2. to stop oil escaping, the 'seal' laughing at each end of a bolt is just a soft copper washer; when the bolt head or nut turns during tightening, it cuts up one surface of the washer, so it can never seal. frown

The first thing I did was get some long stainless steel bolts, so that most of the finished banjo bolt would be smooth, rather than having a thread that oil could spiral along 'til it leaked. frown

As well as a (new) copper washer at each end of each bolt, I planned fitting a stainless steel washer at each end also - at the top, the nut bears on this instead of directly on the copper washer - and a stainless steel spring washer under each bolt head.

Measuring the thicknesses of these washers, the depths of the standard engine parts (banjo, rocker box, head) and adding 1/4" for a domed nut gave me the length of the new bolts.

With a rocker box off the bike, I measured and calculated exactly where the bolts had to be cross-drilled so that the oil pipe banjo would be by one hole across each bolt and the other hole in the bolt would be by the passage in the rocker box that leads to the the rocker shaft.

I had a local machinist shorten the bolts to the right length, put just 5/16" length of thread on the ends just for a domed nut each, cross-drill to my calculations then drill down the length of each bolt from the threaded end to connect up the two cross-drillings. The domed nut seals the open end of the drilling but, in case that wasn't a good seal, when the machinist was drilling the holes, I had him use a tapping diameter (4mm, iirc) so, if necessary, I could tap the end of each bolt and fit a grub screw as an additional seal. I also had the machinist mark the head of each bolt opposite the cross-drillings ... so when the bolts are fitted, when I can see the marks on the heads, I know the cross-drillings are pointed at the feed holes in the banjos and to the rocker shafts.

That was my first attempt. whistle The bolts didn't leak but then I bought another bike (a Triumph but not a T100) that had some well-known leaking places sealed with 'O'-rings. So I thought how the T100 rocker oil feed could be sealed even better with 'O'-rings ... grin

The banjo bolts are pretty much the same - cross-drilled and drilled down the middle as the first pair - but, instead of being long enough to allow for the thickness of sealing copper washers, they're a little longer because the seals are standard off-the-shelf 'O'-rings. At each end of each bolt, the 'O'-ring is compressed by the stainless steel washer; however, I've also had the head and rockerbox castings machined to take 'O'-rings between them where the rocker box oil feed bolt passes through them.

It does mean that the rocker box oil feed bolts have to be fitted, positioned and tightened with the other head bolts and rocker box screws, because the oil feed bolts can't be fitted or moved afterwards, because of the seal the compressed 'O'-rings make. bigt

The other thing I have to be careful of when tightening the domed nuts on the feed bolts is the banjo doesn't slip off the 'O'-ring between it and the rocker box - the lower edge of each oil pipe banjo is very thin. frown At least I don't have to tighten the feed bolts/nuts so much to get the 'O'-rings to seal, bigt but I think I might replace the standard steel oil feed pipe and banjos with off-the-shelf separate fittings joined together with flexible pipe ... Braided hose and fittings would be expensive for something hidden under the tank most of the time, but another Forum contributor has mentioned 'socketless' fittings ...

Hth.

Regards,

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#405131 - 11/23/11 7:44 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Stuart]  
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Old Cafe Racer Offline
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OZ
This is the way I'm attacking the rocker oil feed pipe issue Stuart.
It's a fair bit of messing around to make it all look so simple though.
davy.


#405200 - 11/23/11 4:40 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Old Cafe Racer]  
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OCR,
I notice that your engine stay mounting points are from the front head bolts on your engine. Mine are on the rear. Which is correct?
Mine is a 1971 T100R


1971 T100R
1970 T120
#405221 - 11/23/11 6:08 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Hi Stuart,

It seems you have given a lot of thought and effort, to improve this situation. Good for you. thank you for taking the time to share the information you have obtained. clap

Hi Davy,

Looks good. Care to take the time to take it all apart and "link" us to photo of what it all is? wink Just kidding.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#405274 - 11/23/11 9:00 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: twinspin]  
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Originally Posted By: twinspin
OCR,
I notice that your engine stay mounting points are from the front head bolts on your engine. Mine are on the rear. Which is correct?
Mine is a 1971 T100R


Twin

I think the head steady brackets on the 500 moved from front to rear rockerboxes in 1967 as a result of the new "beefed up" frame.

Cheers Paul


1969 T100S
1955 Tiger Cub
#405299 - 11/23/11 10:55 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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CRH Offline
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Stuart that is a lot of thought, work and effort. Can't think why Triumph didn't adopt the 650 system of an end feed to the rocker spindles for the C series.
Well..... they did eventually but only for the handful of T100Ds. Having said that the end feed rocker supply is about the only place my T100D top end doesn't leak at the moment. Winter strip coming up!
Chris

#405318 - 11/24/11 1:23 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: twinspin]  
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OZ
Twinspin:
My engine is a '73, the frame is a '67 with brackets front & rear so I decided to go with the front one to give more clearance for the rocker feed elbows.
I don't know which is correct.

btour:
To make this work I had to drill the bottom of the oil banjo bolt holes out at accept stepped studs which seal the bottom end, tap the top of the rockerbox holes to accept the AN elbows, then cross drill new oil feed holes as the elbow threads went past the original feed holes.
The outsides of the new holes were then blanked of with stainless steel screws.
Everything was sealed/locked into place with Locktite.
Simple (when you say it fast) smile






#405322 - 11/24/11 2:19 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: CRH]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: btour
It seems you have given a lot of thought and effort, to improve this situation.

Originally Posted By: CRH
that is a lot of thought, work and effort.

Thanks. To a certain extent, the first lot of thought, effort and improvement were 'forced' wink on me because I thought the crap pattern parts would be a waste of time that'd have to be fixed sooner rather than later. The second lot were really because I can't leave well-enough alone ... laughing

Originally Posted By: paulberry
I think the head steady brackets on the 500 moved from front to rear rockerboxes in 1967 as a result of the new "beefed up" frame.

Fwiw, my '69 has frame brackets for either position, just the front one isn't accessible with the coils mounted ... crazy

Originally Posted By: CRH
Can't think why Triumph didn't adopt the 650 system of an end feed to the rocker spindles for the C series.
Well..... they did eventually but only for the handful of T100Ds.

Had Hopwood's and Hele's 'Plan A' - replacement of the 'C'-range engines with ones based on the 70mm stroke of the 250 and the-then putative triple engines - come to fruition, I suspect everything probably would've have end-fed rocker shafts sooner. But then they turned the US market on to the 500 by using it to beat Hardly at Daytona - twice - and no-one would entertain a new engine. So they left it a few years ... and everything unravelled big-time ... cry

And, as you know, it isn't difficult to make end-fed the rocker shafts leak too ... grin

Hth.

Regards,

#405350 - 11/24/11 9:19 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
Matt- I noticed you asked about how to measure the crush a few posts back and I don't think you got an answer. You have to have the head gasket in place as well as the prt seals. You just rest the head on with all the seals seated correctly and use a feeler in the gap between the head and head gasket.

Dave

#405745 - 11/26/11 9:44 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: twinspin]  
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Matthew in TO Offline
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Success. I've put the bike back together with a new head gasket, rocker box gaskets, new copper washers on the rocker feeds and new push rod tube seals. I did not install the white spacers on the PRTs - in my five years and 10,000 miles of owning the bike it's never had them and didn't leak.

Ran the bike today for 45 mins and it's running great, no leaks at all. Goes to show that careful assembly works. I'll retorque the head after a few more miles. I've kept the old head gasket and rocker feed washers so I can anneal them later.

Thanks everyone for your input. I wouldn't have the confidence to tackle this otherwise.

Last edited by Matthew in TO; 11/26/11 9:47 pm.

1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
#405787 - 11/27/11 2:36 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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John Healy Online content
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Quote:
US market on to the 500 by using it to beat Hardly at Daytona - twice


Count again and you will come up with three wins at Daytona with that engine.

Don Burnett 1962.
Buddy Elmore 1966.
Gary Nixon 1967.


#405822 - 11/27/11 9:52 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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I have used copper feed washers again if they were thick enough but I always flatten mine with wet or dry abrasive as they are invariably 'stepped' from previous use. If you can get the right washers you could save yourself the effort. I always anneal them though.


1971 T100R
1970 T120
#405824 - 11/27/11 10:03 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: John Healy]  
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Hi John,

Originally Posted By: John Healy
Count again and you will come up with three wins at Daytona with that engine.

I intended the context to be:-

Originally Posted By: Stuart
Hopwood's and Hele's
But then they turned the US market on to the 500 by using it to beat Hardly at Daytona - twice - and no-one would entertain a new engine.

Creditable though the '62 win was, with Edward Turner and his long-time 'no racing' policy still in charge at Meriden in 1962, while ET and Triumph would've been happy to make use of the favourable publicity, the primary effort would've been by the US importer(s?) (and dealers?), and the '62 win didn't spawn the model and design changes that the '66 and '67 wins did?

Hth.

Regards,

#406087 - 11/28/11 7:07 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Quote:
and the '62 win didn't spawn the model and design changes that the '66 and '67 wins did?


Stuart: The US market was turned on to the 500 long before the relationship between Rod Coates (Triumph East Coast service Manager) and Doug Hele and Don Burnett's win at Daytona gave us the 1966 and 1967 bikes. With out this relationship the factory, and the 1962 Daytona win, the specialized road race bikes would never have existed. And the changes made to these models never saw the light of day in standard production models. Even the twin carb head and the supported swing arm came out from privateers here in the US.

The win in 1962 by privateer, Don Burnett, was the catalyst that gave us the later 1966 and 1967 bikes, and in the opinion of many over here, was far more important than the later wins. You remember that Don beat Dick Mann on the Matchless G50. This led to Rod Coates protesting Tony Woodward, also on the G50, but in the amateur class. By AMA rules to qualify there had to be 200 of the model on dealers sales floor. Neither the factory, or the importer, was prepared to bring in to the US 200 G50 models and as a result the G50 was banned from AMA Class C competition.

But all this begs the question and Claudio Sinitich completely missed the point of the 500 racing effort. The effort put into the bike was driven entirely by the American market and our Class "C" racing. There was nothing driving a racing version of this production bike in the UK.

Unlike Europe, where the racing was dominated by low production specials, the US racing was to be done with approved production models. By the time the factory took interest in the bike a lot of basic development had been done, and the racing heritage firmly established, on dirt tracks around the US.

And while the road racer, and Daytona, were the "Jewel in the Crown" the work horse that gave Triumph national championships, on both dirt and tarmac, were versions of the standard production 500. Actually to win the national championship more time was spent on dirt than tarmac.


#406116 - 11/28/11 9:00 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: John Healy]  
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Matthew in TO Offline
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Originally Posted By: John Healy
The US market was turned on to the 500 long before the relationship between Rod Coates (Triumph East Coast service Manager) and Doug Hele and Don Burnett's win at Daytona gave us the 1966 and 1967 bikes.
I've often thought that had Triumph put a reliable electric start on the T90 and T100, a front disk brake, decent electrics and switch gear and reliable oil containment that they've had a good bike to take on the Honda 350cc and 500cc bikes.


1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
#406129 - 11/28/11 9:55 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Tridentman Online content
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But it wasnt all US initiated,John.
What about the Percy Tait semi private semi factory 500 that Percy campaigned in the 500 Grand Prix across Europe and, IIRC, on one occasion in one of the Grand Prixs beat all the British racing specials (Manx Norton, Matchless G50 etc)and finished second only to Giacomo Agostini on the fabulous works MV?
So I think it was the US pushing and the UK pulling that produced such a good 500---and that of course was the ancestor of the great racing triples.
Just another point of view!

#406133 - 11/28/11 10:04 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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John Healy Online content
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I always thought, except for scotch whiskey and Devon clotted cream, the British sell themselves short. Around the World people wanted, and still do, products made in the UK. People don't want the same bearing in a NSK box, they want it in a RHP box marked made in England. All this, in spite of all the inherent leaks and required tweaks one has to put up with with British products.

Like the USA, manufacturers forget that made in England (or Made in the USA) IS a valuable - value added - Brand name!

The British were looking at competition that wasn't there. If we could have gotten adequate Triumphs in 1970 it would have been a record sales year for our dealership. The affect of the Honda 750 on the US market is totally exaggerated. In 1971 we were giving deposits back once the customer saw the bikes. Why do the British always have to snatch Defeat out of the hands of Victory?

Mathew, the 500 needed updating, and even when Dennis Poore "pissed off - (to his eventual downfall) " all of the US dealers by canning the Bonneville, he continued the 500 in the new NVT line-up. In the end it did see some improvements, but too little too late. It was the perfect motorcycle for a 150 pound rider and it was much nimbler in traffic and handle a lot better that the other Triumph, or available Japanese, models.


#406135 - 11/28/11 10:31 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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John Healy Online content
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In discussion with Arthur Jakeman for an article in Vintage Bike, he admitted that if it wasn't for pressure put on the factory by both of the US distributors there would not have been a 1966 or 1967 500 racer for Percy to ride and win. Percy did wonderful things with this little racer, but he was just in the right place at the right time.

This pressure mostly came from Rod Coates, who had an ally at the factory, having a close relationship with Doug Hele. I have been told that the men respected each other, and there respective accomplishments. If there was one thing you needed to know about Rod, it is that he was a fierce competitor and a Triumph man, thru and thru. IMHO there was no pulling on the part of the UK factory.

A privateer had already proved in 1962 that the 500 could beat a factory prepared G50 at Daytona four years earlier. It is as good a place as any to prove your potential.


#406150 - 11/28/11 11:54 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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But--in spite of factory and company policy to the contrary---people like Doug Hele subverted the policy and behind the scenes and under the radar worked on, helped and produced the 500 racer which was so succesful and started the line that then produced the triple racers with that never to be forgotten sound.
So---IMHO---there were guys on both sides of the pond who were all pulling in the same direction.
BTW--I am not allowed Devon clotted cream, John----I love it but it has so much cholesterol it oozes out of the stuff. However I dont drink Scotch WhiskEy but I love Scotch Whisky and next time I am in MA I will bring you a bottle of my favorite malt.
Oh--if only we could rewrite history---wouldnt it be different and glorious!
Hindsight is great stuff---and very rarely wrong in my experience!

#406181 - 11/29/11 3:48 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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But the question on the table isn't Doug Hele subverting the wink, wink, nod, nod non-racing policy, but who gave birth to the 500 racing program. The UK or the US. Turner had already capitulated the production of racing machines exclusively for the American market in 1954 with factory prepared oval dirt track and road racing models. This wasn't a wink, wink, nod, nod deal, but a full factory effort at the request of the US distributors.

This isn't about the talent of the people who made these models, but the market forces that drove them to do it in the first place. Sergio wasn't even close in his coverage of the history of the 500 racer.

Don Burnett finished second in 1961 and then won the big one on a bike prepared by TriCor's Cliff Guild. The 500 racing program was initiated in America and driven by America market.

Some history giving Dick Mann view of Rod Coates. Quote Dick Mann referring to Rod Coates effort to get the G50 banned from AMA Class C Racing: "Refusing to take it personally, he says, "Rod Coates was a tremendous team player. If you cut him, he would probably bleed Triumph engine oil. I always said that if Rod Coates had not already been tied to Triumph, he is the first guy I would want on my team.""

If Rod Coates didn't lead the effort to block the Matchless G50 from AMA competition, you probably would have never seen the factory 1966 and 1967 bikes.


#406182 - 11/29/11 3:54 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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John Healy Online content
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And while I am impressed with davies' adaptation of a stainless oil line to feed the rockers, annealed copper washers and workmanship technique the stock system can work just fine. Yes, it could be improved, but there is no need for it to leak!


#406190 - 11/29/11 4:59 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Yes-I agree--we tend to think these days that the mods that are now available are absolutely essential for a bike to run properly.
You then think of these 500s winning races using a plain timing side bush.
In the 1960s I used to run an old A10 with sidecar and that bike was really used.I remember cruising flat out from UK to the South of France and it never complained at all.At one stage I was following a big fast truck (slipstreaming it) for a number of miles and then turned off for gas. When I stopped at the gas pump I pushed the kill button. Nothing happened--engine continued to run. Thinking the kill button connection had come off I pulled off the plug leads. Made no difference. The engine was so hot that it was firing through pre-ignition.I stopped it by turning off the gas. 10 minutes later the journey resumed with no problems.
All this with a well worn plain bush on the timing side.
Put together properly these old bikes are as tough as old nails.
Sorry to bore you with my memories.

#406191 - 11/29/11 5:01 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Who gave birth to the 500 racing program?
Ernie Lyons in the late 1940s must be one of the contenders.

#406192 - 11/29/11 5:01 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Who gave birth to the 500 racing program?
Ernie Lyons in the late 1940s must be one of the contenders.

#406198 - 11/29/11 7:38 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: John Healy]  
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OZ
And while I am impressed with davies' adaptation of a stainless oil line to feed the rockers, annealed copper washers and workmanship technique the stock system can work just fine. Yes, it could be improved, but there is no need for it to leak!

No there is no need for it to leak, but give it half a chance & it will do.
Your probably going to be horrified then to learn I'm also building this bike with a carbon fiber central oil tank and carbon fiber Dunstall style seat.
I did my time with a Daytona (Actually a modified 1960 T100A) back in the day with the old technology and now I'm doing it all again with new materials and knowledge.
If I was building a straight Daytona I would be ultra anal about originality but as it's a replica of the bike I raced in the early 70's I'm doing just as I did then & incorporating the best new tech I can find and afford to make a fast reliable beautiful 500 Triumph.
Nothing attractive about oil leaks or breakdowns to me.

.

Last edited by Old Cafe Racer; 11/29/11 7:40 am.
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