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#404056 - 11/16/11 2:58 pm Best way to seal pushrod tubes  
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Matthew in TO Offline
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I've had the head off my T100S motor to change mushroom adjusters. Now that I've put it all back together again there is a constant flood of oil coming from the motor onto the gear box and down the primary side of the motor. I assume it's either the head gasket (though compression and power is good - however bike is idling faster than before) or PRT seals, likely the bottom seals as its a lot of oil coming out - more than would normally travel through the small rocker feed pipe.

Now, I admit I cheated and tried to reuse the head gasket and PRT seals. So, I've now learned the errors of my ways and have ordered a new head gasket and PRT seals. I don't have the hard plastic ring seal on my bike, like the 650s.

Besides new seals, what else can I do to avoid PRT leaks. I want to do this right this time. I've seen others put gasket compound around the top and bottom before putting the head back on.


1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
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#404089 - 11/16/11 7:44 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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paulberry Offline
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Stamford

Matthew

As you have found out you can't reuse pushrod tube seals, they will have been crushed previously.

On the 69 500 the seal arrangement is much improved and should not give any problems. You should have two round o'rings fitted to the tubes and a white square section "spacer" seal fitted to the tappet blocks. I don't think this arrangement is shown until later parts books, it's certainly not the arrangement shown in my 69 parts book.

It's best to get a choice of the bottom seals so you can get the correct crush. Different people will give you different gaps for the crush but I have never had a problem with 30thou. With that gap/crush you are not in danger of warping your precious head. I just smear the seals with o'ring grease on assembly and don't forget the wedding bands over the bottom seals.

Good luck with the rebuild.

Paul


1969 T100S
1955 Tiger Cub
#404101 - 11/16/11 8:30 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: paulberry]  
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desco Online content
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Don't forget to anneal the head gasket. You can probably reuse the old one, if it's not damaged, by annealing it.

Last edited by desco; 11/16/11 8:31 pm. Reason: punctuation

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#404153 - 11/17/11 12:22 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Matthew in TO Offline
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My PRTs don't have a square section white seal. They've just got a black o-ring at top and bottom. They've been more or less oil tight for years this way.

Speaking of gaskets, how does a head gasket failure lead to oil leaks? Wouldn't this mean that oil was getting past the rings and into the combustion chamber?

Lastly, when I pull the head bolts are they supposed to be dry? Mine have some oil smear on them.

Last edited by Matthew in TO; 11/17/11 1:20 am.

1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
#404180 - 11/17/11 2:27 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Mike Baker Online content
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Matthew
I learned the hard way that if I install the top oring onto the PRT, it (oring) gets torn. If the oring is installed into the head first, it stands a pretty good chance of surviving intact.
This is for a 650. 500 may be different?
Mike

#404191 - 11/17/11 3:21 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Excalibur Offline
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As said above crush is real important on the seals. Take your time on setting up the correct amount. A rough rule of thumb would be to crush to about 70% of orig thickness. Don't use a sealer on them. Also, it's OK to use a top seal in the lower PRT to get crush within spec. Approx a half thickness white square section lower seal was/is available.
Anneal the head gasket, even if new and perfectly OK to re-use existing one. I use silver paint from a spraycan on the head gasket as a sealer and have done since the 70's. Works every time.

Last edited by Excalibur; 11/17/11 3:26 am.
#404220 - 11/17/11 8:35 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Excalibur]  
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Phatt Bob Offline
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And if it still leaks you can bodge it.

At race meetings I usually carry a length of black seamstresses hem tape about 1/2" wide. Smear one side with Threebond and thread it round that back of the pushrod tube (having cleaned it with carb cleaner), pull tight and overlap at the front.

Neat, unobtrusive and functional, and will last a whole race season. Don't ask me how I know.

Cheers

Bob


Phatt Bob
'95 Daytona 1200
'98 Daytona 1200 dragbike
ex-850 T140 Caff Racer, 850 Triton, Morgo T120, Starfire and Pretend Daytona 500 owner
#404223 - 11/17/11 9:00 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Tiger Offline
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The Napier Sabre was a fine engine with specified oil consumption of 47 pints/hr at cruise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Sabre

Just a rough calc would have you paying $1000/hr for good Avgas at cruise.


Last edited by Tiger; 11/17/11 9:13 am.

1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
#404231 - 11/17/11 11:30 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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paulberry Offline
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Originally Posted By: Matthew in TO
My PRTs don't have a square section white seal. They've just got a black o-ring at top and bottom. They've been more or less oil tight for years this way.


Matthew

What type of pushrod tubes have you got?
On your 69 you should have the tubes with the shoulder that pass up through into the head. They have the internal o'ring seal at the base. You need three seals and a wedding band on each tube.
You also need the correct guide blocks in the barrels

This arrangement is unfortunately not shown in the parts book but there is a service bulletin (No 324) which shows the correct parts. This is a great improvement on the previous 2 seal arrangement, unless your head is badly worn where the seal sits it should seal up fine without having to resort to any goo.

Cheers Paul


1969 T100S
1955 Tiger Cub
#404245 - 11/17/11 2:09 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: paulberry]  
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lrutt Offline
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I was chasing the same problem on the left side of my 1970 tiger this last spring. I had done the top end and took great care in the PRT's but alas, she leaked at the back side. So popped the top again and did it again, same thing. So I started looking REAL close as to where and when this was happening. Clean, powder, check. Found out it was not the PRT but the intake manifold. On some bikes on the single carb models anyhow, the intake manifold bolts that hold to the head can actually go all the way through to the rocker box chamber. The oil will wick along the threads and leak out. Pulled the bolts from the intake and put a little RTV on the threads and voila, no more leak.

Just sayin it's something to check.


1970 Tiger
1971 Trophy
1973 Commando
1976 CB750k
1965 CA77
1978 CB750k
1970 T250II
1971 RT1B
1977 Lemans
2001 M900
2001 XR650L
1994 FLSTC
2006 XL1200C
1984 XV1000
1981 C70
1973 Z50
1989 Hawk GT
2006 Scrambler
1970 CT90
1965 CT200
1977 R75/7
#404488 - 11/19/11 1:38 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Matthew in TO Offline
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Okay, I've taken off the head and PRTs. My PRTs did not have a rubber black seal at the bottom on top of the tappet block. Instead the rubber seal is inside a recess in the PRT, see image below.




The seal inside the PRT is quite warn, but never leaked much oil in the past, while this time it was pouring out. I've today received a new head gasket and four black PRT seals. Where do I put the bottom ones, in the recess in the PRT (and tear out the old ones) or on top of the tappet block (see image below where I've half put it on the block to illustrate.




I don't have the white square section seal, nor is there space to put it as the PRTs fit properly now. The head is in good shape, and the head bolts and carb manifold bolts have no oil on them when extracted, so the oil flood must be the PRTs. I'm worried that I'll put it all together and it will still leak, so I appreciate all advice on best steps to return to the more or less oil tight seal I had before. I have not loosened or touched the seals under the blocks.

For those that are wondering how I got here, I broke a mushroom adjuster and wanted to give the head a shake to get the metal piece out - which I did successfully.

Here's some more pics showing my push rod type and how the tappet block looked when I removed the PRT and did not seal an oil seal on the block. The last image shows how the PRT would look if placed on top of the seal. I have enough seals to do both inside the PRT and the top of tappet block - but I want to do it right.





Last edited by Matthew in TO; 11/19/11 1:44 am.

1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
#404546 - 11/19/11 1:36 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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paulberry Offline
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Stamford

Matthew

You are placing the two black seals in the correct place but you need a white seal placed over the tappet block as well. If you want to PM me I can send you a copy of the service bulletin. I can't PM you as your PM box is full.

Cheers Paul


1969 T100S
1955 Tiger Cub
#404550 - 11/19/11 2:26 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Matthew in TO Offline
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Thanks Paul, PM has been sent.

My PRTs never had that seal at the bottom you mention, and they were oil tight. I have a seal kit for my bike, so maybe I'll find the needed seal there.

Can I put gasket compound at the bottom of the tubes as well? Looks like it was there before and was oil tight.

I have a question on the PRTs. Does oil shoot up from the tappet block into the tubes, in addition to oil dripping from the rocker boxes? I'm asking as the oil spillage I was seeing was a lot of oil, much more than you'd see from the rocker box trickle.

Last edited by Matthew in TO; 11/19/11 2:28 pm.

1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
#404558 - 11/19/11 3:04 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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John Healy Online content
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When installing the wedding band, and square section "O" ring on the bottom of the pushrod tube, be sure to check "crush." .030" to .040" will seal and prevent the head from being bent. It is also wise to use Viton "O" rings (71-1283) on both the top and bottom of the tube.

It is not wise, IMHO, to use any sealant unless it was specified to be used with the material used to make the "O" rings. Many sealants contain compounds that can cause the material to deteriorate (either soften or harden). Just use a rubber lubricant like P-80 or some grease to aid assembly.


#404563 - 11/19/11 3:29 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: John Healy]  
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Matthew in TO Offline
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Is this the missing seal? I've got five or six of these in new condition in my bag of seals that came with the bike.



John, the seals inside the push rod tubes were quite deteriorated, so it may have been the sealant, as you describe.


1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
#404571 - 11/19/11 3:58 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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desco Online content
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Are you trying for "correctness" or "leak freeness"?
Have you had this bike since new? If not, how can you be sure about never having had the white "O" rings. The push rod tubes were one of the weak points in the oiling system and were always being improved upon. My 68 has a cup at the base of the tube to help retain the white square section "O" ring. The 72 has a sleeve or "wedding band".
Don't know what came before or after but they both work. No goop and no leaks.
PS I like dark red round section "O" rings for the rest of the setup.

Last edited by desco; 11/19/11 4:01 pm. Reason: a

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#404592 - 11/19/11 7:29 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Matthew in TO Offline
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All I care about is oil tightness. If I put that white ring seal at the top of the tappet block, will the added height impact the ability of the black ring seal inside the prt from making correct contact with the tappet block?

I'm worried that if I introduce a seal that's not supposed to be there that I'll warp the head by making the PRTs too long.

Last edited by Matthew in TO; 11/19/11 9:19 pm.

1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
#404602 - 11/19/11 9:25 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.
I know nothing about T-100s, never having owned one, Dr. John is the expert here, but he seems to think they should have the white rings. Yes, they will raise the head a bit. Put them in and measure the gap at the top of the cylinder before tightening things up.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#404606 - 11/19/11 10:00 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Matthew in TO Offline
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How do I check the crush? Ive read that if I install the push rods with seals and put the head on, but without the head gasket, that I should measure the space between the head and barrel.

My concern is that neither my workshop manual or parts book make any mention of the wedding band or while seal, but just shows the top and internal prt bottom seal. The bike was oil tight before, so the prt seals must have been working. I have the white seals, but not the wedding band ring - can I use the white seals without the ring?

Just how much oil shoots up into the PRTs? I always thought it was just for catching the trickle from the rocker feed, but I had more oil than that coming out.

Last edited by Matthew in TO; 11/19/11 10:02 pm.

1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
#404633 - 11/20/11 12:18 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.
Again I'm no T-100 expert but I assemble the top end with all the "O" rings and head gasket in place. Put all the head bolts in finger tight and measure the gap with feeler gauges. Every body likes a different gap but I'd say anything between .030 and .050 should work. They do make the white square section "O" rings in various thicknesses but I don't know where to get them as I've never had the need. Don't know why push rod tubes would be different on yours but who knows how the British minds worked 40 years ago and who knows how many idiots have worked on these bikes since? When I had the same problem years ago my parts guy sent me three pairs of push rod tubs. All were slightly different. He told me to keep the two that worked best and send the others back. Try that on E-bay!
You are going to need to contain the white rings or they will bulge out sideways and leak. The wedding bands don't add any height to the stack.
Can't imagine much oil going up through the tappet blocks. But what do I know?
My bikes have an O ring on the tappet blocks that is a bastard to get to. Don't know about yours. Hopefully an "expert" will chime in soon.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#404671 - 11/20/11 10:14 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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twinspin Offline
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Matthew, you probably do not have wedding bands fitted. If you haven't you will probably have to purchase some but there is sometimes a problem on sizing from some suppliers. I ran my T100R for a couple of years without them as you have without leaks but heeding the advice of this board I fitted them but you have to be really careful to achieve the right crush otherwise you may distort the head. The parts manual does not show the wedding bands although I believe they were fitted originally. One rule though is NEVER to re-use old O rings and get the correct ones NOT some from the hardware store that happen to fit.
Apart from the function the wedding bands do improve the looks of your bike as well. The function is to provide optimum sealing crush from the O rings and not to provide additional sealing as the O rings should be doing the sealing job. It is also quite easy when fitting the head to allow the top o ring to misalign with the seating.
I hope this helps.
Mike


1971 T100R
1970 T120
#404694 - 11/20/11 3:35 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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John Healy Online content
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When the round section "O" rings where introduced in 1969:
a: The Buna-N (70-7310) "O" ring was specified for both top and bottom.
—After experiencing problems Triumph issued a service bulletin, mentioned by Paul above, introducing the wedding band and square section seal (70-3547).
—Triumph also introduced the Viton "O" ring (71-1283) to replace the Buna-N at the top. Viton will withstand more heat than Buna-N.
—Most engine builders have routinely started using the Viton "O" ring (71-1283) at the top and bottom.

b. The wedding band and square cross section seal was not installed.
—The wedding band was introduced into production for the 1970 model year.
—During rebuilds many mechanics adhered to the Triumph service bulletin and retro fitted the wedding band and seal.
—Although there is little published, THERE ARE two variants of the wedding band. If one takes the time to measure stock wedding bands one will find that there are two sizes.
c. In a 1965 service bulletin Triumph specified .030 to .040" for push rod tube crush. If there is too much crush you will bend the head and cause extrusion failure where the "O" ring deforms and is pushed out the gap between the head and push rod tube. Typical crush on a round section "O" ring, of the size found on the push rod tubes to affect a seal, is .010". The .030" to .040" assumes the use of at least one square section seal. In fact when this specification was given two were used. The square section seals will tolerate more crush than the harder round section "O" rings.


#404768 - 11/21/11 2:29 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Matthew in TO]  
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: desco
They do make the white square section "O" rings in various thicknesses

Uh-uh. Officially, just two, although the crappier spares suppliers manage all sorts of variations. frown

John mentions 70-3547, these are 1/10" thick; the other is 70-4752, which are 1/8" thick. Unused, both are 7/8" i.d., 1-3/32" o.d.; used are likely to have stretched a bit.

Originally Posted By: Matthew in TO
more than would normally travel through the small rocker feed pipe.

From experience, you might be surprised how much mess can be made by a leak from the rocker feed pipe bolt, especially if you're still using the original crappy reduced-diameter-bolts arrangement and/or nuts and bolt heads bearing directly on the sealing copper washers. frown

Hth.

Regards,

#404873 - 11/21/11 8:44 pm Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Stuart]  
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By the way,that reminds me, I once had a leak which was hard to trace and turned out to be a minute fracture in the rocker feed pipe near the rear union. I thought that originally it was the pushrod tube seal. Oil when hot flows profusely and discretely.


1971 T100R
1970 T120
#404968 - 11/22/11 8:55 am Re: Best way to seal pushrod tubes [Re: Stuart]  
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Mirko Offline
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Sombor Serbia

From experience, you might be surprised how much mess can be made by a leak from the rocker feed pipe bolt, especially if you're still using the original crappy reduced-diameter-bolts arrangement and/or nuts and bolt heads bearing directly on the sealing copper washers. frown

Hth.

Regards, [/quote]

Hi,

Can you please explain more clearly your way of sealing rocker feed pipes,or some alternative to factory way?

Mirko

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