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where can I find catalina fenders? #401774
11/02/11 3:49 pm
11/02/11 3:49 pm
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Wiebe Offline OP
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I want to return an all sports competition and possible also a catalina to their former glory. Both of them are missing the original fenders (mudguards). Both models use the same fenders which are dissimilar from the clubmans and as they were usa only models the parts are not available in the UK. Can anybody tell me where I can find them? thx

Wiebe

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Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #401778
11/02/11 4:19 pm
11/02/11 4:19 pm
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Chris Williams - AutoCycle


Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #401803
11/02/11 6:18 pm
11/02/11 6:18 pm
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Weibe: Do those fenders have the mounting tabs welded on?

Gordo


Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #401839
11/02/11 9:26 pm
11/02/11 9:26 pm
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Front fender should be a 6-tab with blade front edge. I know Chris Williams has the back fender because a guy here in Oregon sent him an original stock one to make a pattern from. The front is the same as all GS fronts with the 6-tab.


Boomer
Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #401840
11/02/11 9:30 pm
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PS. The side supports for the rear fender are different from the Clubman which has a different radius.


Boomer
Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #401848
11/02/11 11:22 pm
11/02/11 11:22 pm
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John Healy Offline
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01384 253030 Autocycle in sunny Dudley. He is very aware of the Catalina and knows what you want. He has been rolling BSA fenders recently, proper roll might still be on machine.


Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #401897
11/03/11 12:42 pm
11/03/11 12:42 pm
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Wiebe Offline OP
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all,

thx so far, but I am not there yet.

I talked to Chris: it seems (as you all may well know but I did not) that there were more styles mudguards used. He asked me to provide specific measurements to be able to produce what I needed. I will start another thread asking for measurements.

thx

Wiebe

Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #401918
11/03/11 4:02 pm
11/03/11 4:02 pm
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
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The rear stays are different (longer) than the Clubman's as well.. actually there are many different length rear stays.. and also some of the repop rear fenders are not curved correctly...

Ron

Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #401948
11/03/11 8:11 pm
11/03/11 8:11 pm
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Wiebe: I am not surprised that is the tact Chris took. He once brought out of the darkness 10 n.o.s. BSA Gold Star fenders to make a point to me. No two were alike. Neither bracket locations or radiuses seem to be made to some standard. The fronts were the worse examples. You would get two where the radius was the same and the brackets were in a different location.

I think his point was, which one of the lot met your criteria for correctness. The BSA fender police have got under his skin.


Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #401980
11/04/11 1:52 am
11/04/11 1:52 am
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California
Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
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Dick Newby had Catalina fenders made... and the correct stays to go with them... but those are all gone... I got one of his last sets... where they are, I am not sure... I have yet to get my 1963 Catalina back together... (all I need is to win the lottery... heh)... I leave early in the morning for a few days... when I get back I think I know where that stuff is, and if so, I will try to measure them...

The Catalina rear fender is a much larger arc than a Clubman's as the Catalina had 18 inch rear wheels and big knobbies on them.. Yes some / most ended up as Dirt Trackers, but then the All Sports was THE bike to turn in to a Dirt Tracker... rare to see an original All Sports.. but I know where there is one..!

Ron

Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #402005
11/04/11 7:56 am
11/04/11 7:56 am
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Wiebe Offline OP
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the crated one? Luckely the one I bought wasnt butchered, the only things I need are a seat, tach and the mudguards. The remark about the rear stays being longer than the clubmans puzzle me though. I understood the rear wheel of the clubman to be 19" and the catalina and allsporst to be 18". What I also know is that the european scramblers came with 19" rears (21 front). If I look at old pictures and brochures there is no wide arc at all, only more clearance above the rear tire. That to me means that the stays are the same or shorter. I had that confirmed by len haggis in the UK who said the stays on the US scramblers were shorter. Then again, as BSA must have put on there what was available its quite possible that there is no truth to this at all, just preference. Unless you take the brochures of BSA to see what their intentions were.

By the way the Catalina is now also part of the stable (to keep my G80TCS company) and all of them will see dirt! (greenlaning)

Wiebe

rgds

Wiebe

Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #402040
11/04/11 2:16 pm
11/04/11 2:16 pm
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John Healy Offline
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Dick Newby had Catalina fenders, and braces, made BY Chris Williams. Chris knows exactly what a Catalina fender looks like. He made a lot of these, and other GS fenders, for Dick.

But from years of "experts" beating him up, Chris has taken a defensive posture. He is not going to make a fender to have another "expert" tell you that it isn't right and have to listen to you complain. To avoid all of this angst in his life he is going to take what you give him and make your fender.

If you were to watch the fenders being made you would understand why there are variations from fender to fender, batch to batch. Chris makes these fenders on the same exact machine used to make the factory originals. The process is as much art as it is manufacturing.

These fenders are not made in a "cooky cutter" mold bashed into exactly the same shape by big machine that goes "kathunk", but rolled several times by hand through a single pair of rollers and curved with a crudely adjustable hunk of brass. Put a 100 through to start the radius, and depending on the metal, one or more times (stainless can take 6 or more to prevent it from cracking), to get the final radius. And mind you this has always been done by eye.

As the fender exits the rollers it hits the brass plug creating the radius. Simple enough if you been doing it for the past 40 years. While retired now, the two guys that worked for Chris had been rolling fenders on this exact machine since they were apprenticed at 16. They both retired the exact day they turned retirement age... I wonder why. It is dirty, repetitive hard work!


Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: John Healy] #402283
11/06/11 2:12 am
11/06/11 2:12 am
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gpvic Offline
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John,
All this Catalina fender talk has my head spinning. Which made me want to pose a question..... Have you ever threatened to hit a Catalina rider with a beer bottle because you thought he might be trying to run you over? Say, at the Daytona Armoury in the little anteroom off the main floor one night long ago? I have heard that a few times and wondered if it were true......
Seriously though, I am having the same dilemma as I want to use that type fender on my Clubman. I have an original Catalina fender, unfortunately someone bobbed it just past the mounting flat at the rear tip. So I'm going to have to fabricate the last 6" or so. To me, the standard Clubman fender has that 'kicked in the butt' look that to me, spoils the symmetry of the whole bike. Will I be OK or forever at the bottom of the Gold Star pit looking up? Keep up the good work, I really enjoy all the threads. Thanks!!

Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #402326
11/06/11 2:02 pm
11/06/11 2:02 pm
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Quote:
All this Catalina fender talk has my head spinning. Which made me want to pose a question..... Have you ever threatened to hit a Catalina rider with a beer bottle because you thought he might be trying to run you over? Say, at the Daytona Armoury in the little anteroom off the main floor one night long ago? I have heard that a few times and wondered if it were true......


Guilty as charged, except it was a Vincent rider. He was lucky as the other bloke in the room was armed.


Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: John Healy] #402436
11/07/11 8:31 am
11/07/11 8:31 am
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John,
I had never heard the one about the Vincent rider, but it was me on the BSA. Be careful what you admit to!!
That's interesting what you said about Chris pulling out the stack of fenders and all of them being different. When I lived in L.A., I had a like experience with Jim Hunter. He showed me a stack that came from Hap Alzina's and they were different also. Small world! But that should be very helpful for others to know that it was not an exact science. Thanks!

Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #402639
11/08/11 6:51 am
11/08/11 6:51 am
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dave - NV Offline
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Some years ago I too bought (not cheap) a 'Catalina' rear fender from Dick Newby the GS guru in SoCA. I was told this weekend Dick has sold all(?) of his large GS stash due to health problems. The so called 'Catalina' fender was also used on US spec Clubman road Goldies. And yes they need a different 'L' brackets than the hump backed UK Clubmans fender as the US customers and importers preferred the Catalina fenders.

As I remember the US fender 'L' brackets are 15 1/2" hole to hole where as the UK style bracket for the strange looking (heh) hump backed fenders are 14 1/4". If this measurement is critical to you I can measure mine for you. BTW, the A10s had a even longer brackets and different fender too. Also bear in mind none or very few UK style Clubman bikes were sold in the US. And after 1958 nearly all Gold Star production was sold in the US and they were not sold in the UK which has caused much confusion in the UK repop market. Newby told me he became so POd with the UK fabricators not believing his specs for a US style rear fender he sent them one from his 'original' US Clubman as a sample to copy. He also mentioned that the repop fabricators would weld the 6 taps on to the earlier style 'no tab' fenders which was incorrect.

I'll be using a'Catalina' fender and SS 'L' brackets made by one of Newby's friends on my project '62 Competition/All Sport 'parts bike'. I'm building it as a slightly modified, mostly correct US Clubman.

A few weeks ago I received a set of '6 tab' fender braces in a parts order form Autocycle Engineering in the UK. They referred to them as being made for the A10 Rocket Gold Star.

A speaking of Goldies, there were 7 of us riding GSs on the BSAOCNC All Brit ride this past weekend out of Novato, CA. And but of course 'our very own' GoldStarRon was there. I didn't hear the count this year, but there's usually 150-175 bikes. We had fun as the bikes always seperate and we ride at our own pace in those beautious NoCA coastal swoops and twisties. AS usual we finnished the day with a catered BBQ (yumm!) at the French Cheese Factory 'park' noth of Novato. I and the Goldie 'Special' always enjoy ourselves on this ride as it's more fun then oldie guys are normally allowed!

Last edited by dave - NV; 11/08/11 6:58 am.

dave - NV
Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #402702
11/08/11 6:13 pm
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Wiebe Offline OP
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about the brackets, It seems that the 15.5" brackets were also used on the European spec scramblers. dave Id very much appreciate it if yiu could measure the radius as well as the length of your rear mudguard. Also if you cold it wold help me if you send me some pics how the rear and front should look in terms of tabs etc. If I can take that to Chris I am sure it will work out

thx for all the responses!

rgds

Wiebe

Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #403375
11/11/11 11:05 pm
11/11/11 11:05 pm
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Wiebe .. I measured my 'Catalina' (& US Clubman) rear fender I bought from Dick Newby some years ago that he had made to match the 'correct' sample he had sent to the UK fender shop. I will be using it on my '62 GS project bike I'm building up this winter.

outside fender measurements:
circumfence end to end = 47"
radius = 15 1/4"
I've not mounted this undrilled fender, but I assume it's correct. This fender has the edge 'beads' nicely flattened to accomadate the mounting brackets.

The 'L' fender tubular brackets measure 15 1/2" center to center between the bolt holes I'm quite certain are correct.

I remmeber Newby telling me he had difficulties getting correct six tab fenders as some (all?) of the UK made fenders were the earlier design fenders with the tabs welded on. I dunno more about this issue.

I hope this helps. Let us know what you find out at your end.

Last edited by dave - NV; 11/11/11 11:13 pm.

dave - NV
Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: dave - NV] #403551
11/13/11 6:54 am
11/13/11 6:54 am
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Wiebe Offline OP
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Thx for the measurements! The only thing Left to clear up is the length. The main reaon is that on some pictures it looks as if thet mudguards on the catalina look as if the are cut right where a clubmans just taper and continue for another 3 or so inches ( right behind the gearbox.) Is that true?

thx

Wiebe

Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #403619
11/13/11 5:40 pm
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Wiebe .. You are correct describing the differences in the fenders. Also the 'Catalina' fender doesn't use the bottom Clubman mounting bracket.


dave - NV
Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #403723
11/14/11 4:18 pm
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Wiebe Offline OP
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Dave you mentioned your dimensions being taken from a mudguard which would also double for the clubman. How long would that mudguard be taken from the rear edge to where it would be cut off to suit the Catalina?

thx

Wiebe

Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #403735
11/14/11 5:32 pm
11/14/11 5:32 pm
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I believe you would find the US Clubman and Catalinas used the same shape and length rear fender. Bear in mind the US importers did not like the 'strange' look of the UK Clubman and specified a more conventional road Gold Star for the US market.

It's a bit sad that I and many others years ago 'pitched' the heavy Gold Star steel fuel tanks, fenders and bracketry and also magdynos, monoblocks, seats, etc. Bear in mind during the late '50s and early '60s Catalinas were a very common dirt racer in various states of tune.
The same could be said about the even more common Triumph TR6s during The Era in the US.

Last edited by dave - NV; 11/14/11 5:43 pm.

dave - NV
Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #404215
11/17/11 8:16 am
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Here's some shots of fenders and braces.




To answer your question on how long the rear of the Catalina fender should extend, about 2 3/4"beyond the bracket. Keep in mind as Dave says, this is pretty much what we saw in the states as the true Clubman trim was seldom seen here.






On top is the scrambler fender and below it a Clubman NOS fender. This shows the different length and radius. The clubman fender not only extended longer at the back but also was longer in the front where it wraped around the swingarm pivot and used the very difficult to find bracket, Dave reffered to, to attach to the frame.








This shows the difference in the brackets with the shorter clubman bracket on top of the scrambler bracket. Also it shows the different bend to adjust to the tighter radius of the clubman fender.









And lastly a comparison between an original scrambler fender, top, and a copy made by Cycle Engineering 10 to 12 years ago. The copy looks good except it is a little long and is blank. So, one would need to cut-out for chain guard and crimp edges for brackets. Radius is very close but one has to be very careful with fitting to get the correct look. If you look close you can see how it was hand made so it would be very easy to not make the next exactly the same.


Boomer
Re: where can I find catalina fenders? [Re: Wiebe] #404319
11/17/11 10:46 pm
11/17/11 10:46 pm
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And just to reiterate Dave's point, only the Clubman had the Clubman rear fender. Where as in the states all models could/would have the scrambler type. Even the Alloy Clipper and West Coast RGS's.


Boomer

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