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69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice #399350
10/17/11 4:54 pm
10/17/11 4:54 pm
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 150
Austin TX
fil Offline OP
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fil  Offline OP
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Austin TX
Bike: 1969 t120
History unknown. Purchased non running clean original with 8 K miles. PO said it was taken apart to build a racer and that was it. I put it together and WILL be riding it soon.

Cleaning out a box of BSA parts last week I found a brand new SPARX rectifier/regulator battery eliminator. After chucking the cobbled wiring and dead battery on my bonnie, I roughed in the Sparx last night to see if I would get spark and was pleased to see a magical zap.

I am drawing a simple diagram to wire in a switch, fuse, lights and horn. I keep runninig across the following even though it is not on the package
"Please Note: When using SPARX regulator rectifiers you must use resisted spark plugs as circuitry is sensitive. Using unresisted plugs can cause over charging."
My question is since I normally run B8ES plugs on my bikes, should I run BR8ES plugs? They are supposed to be 5 k resisted. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Also I woke up to a nice puddle of oil on the left side (chain oiler?) after having kicked through last night. I suspect wet sumped for sure so I will drain the lower and start over before firing. Thoughts?

This week the old girl will fire for the first time in at least 20 years that I know of. Actually, if it was torn apart in the late 70's that would make it 30 plus years. so exciting and frightening!
TIA

Last edited by Fil; 10/17/11 5:02 pm.

Fil
'70 BSA a650t chop
'65 lighnting rocket bobber project
'69 Bonnie
'75 T160 Trident
750 honda
Suzuki 350 two stroke
other useless piles of metal
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Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399374
10/17/11 6:19 pm
10/17/11 6:19 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,375
Scotland
kommando Offline
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My question is since I normally run B8ES plugs on my bikes, should I run BR8ES plugs? They are supposed to be 5 k resisted. Any thoughts are appreciated.

You csn use plain plug caps and resistor plugs BR8ES or 5K resistor plug caps and B8ES, no need to use both, resistor HT leads do not run well on Brit bikes with to the carbon core breaking due to vibration so stick to solid copper HT.

Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399375
10/17/11 6:20 pm
10/17/11 6:20 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,597
Shingle Springs, California
Roadwarrior Offline

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Probably not wet sumping. Triumphs rarely wet sump. Sounds like the drive side cover is leaking. No advise on the resistor plugs as I've not used a battery elimintor.


Bob


73 Triumph T140 Main Ride
70 Bonnie
67 BSA West Coast Hornet

56 Chevy

Who are the brain police?



Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399379
10/17/11 6:31 pm
10/17/11 6:31 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,913
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content
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Maui Hawaii
History unknown....
I just finished rebuilding a '68 TR6 motor that had a fairly castastrophic engine failure. What I found inside this motor convinced me to never ever start a motor with an unknown hisory.
It had:
Inverted timing cover oil seal (the main cause of the engine failure.
No cylinder block locating dowels
completely blocked overhead oil manifold
Totally worn out top end(from above)
Clapped out oil pressure relief valve
Improprely installed layshaft bearings. (caused binding of layshaft and several weird problems.
Plus a general disregard for proper assembly which has caused many other problems like stripped threads.
I should mention that the replacement crank had a sludge trap half full.
This is a partial list

I only hope that I found everything.....

Bike runs like a wildcat now and I'm gettting to the last few problems...

Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 10/17/11 6:34 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399387
10/17/11 7:01 pm
10/17/11 7:01 pm
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 150
Austin TX
fil Offline OP
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fil  Offline OP
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Austin TX
Kommando, thanks for the plug verification. It was really only an educated guess that they would be correct. I like just switchiing plugs for now until I decide on permenant electrics.

Roadwarrior, I did not know it was rare for the trumpets. My BSA will do it if I leave her unattended for extended periods of time. Actually she is well behaved when riden often, quite the bear with a lack of attention. I will wash the bike prior to her first start then get a better idea. By drive side cover do you mean primary fluid rather than oil? My plan tonight is to drain it and fill it with ATF so color will let me know for sure.

Bill, I appreciate your opinion. My first build (that had a "fresh" motor) quickly became my second build where I learned the value of sludge trap out assurance. I have since decided to expect all old bikes need a full tear down and proper build. I have two others on the bench for that reason. I need some motivation though and firing this one will fit the bill.

Thanks


Fil
'70 BSA a650t chop
'65 lighnting rocket bobber project
'69 Bonnie
'75 T160 Trident
750 honda
Suzuki 350 two stroke
other useless piles of metal
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399446
10/18/11 12:33 am
10/18/11 12:33 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,965
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Hi Fil,

Originally Posted By: fil
found a brand new SPARX rectifier/regulator battery eliminator.

You sure it's a battery eliminator as well? I see one listed on the Sparx part of the Tri-Cor England website but I don't see much difference between it and the bog-standard single-phase reg./rect.?

Originally Posted By: fil
I woke up to a nice puddle of oil on the left side (chain oiler?) after having kicked through last night.

Could it be gearbox oil? The seal behind the gearbox sprocket is a common (and annoying) culprit. frown

Originally Posted By: fil
My BSA will do it if I leave her unattended for extended periods of time.

Different types of oil pump. As standard, Triumph twins have a reciprocating pump while BSA twins have a gear pump; triples have a gear pump and have something of a reputation for wet-sumping (although there are other factors besides the pump type).

Btw, before starting your newly-rebuilt engine, you might want to read the advice here - Triple Cycles' website | "Written Articles" | "Waking the Sleeping Beast".

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399492
10/18/11 9:49 am
10/18/11 9:49 am
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
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Tiger  Offline
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Melbourne Australia
My first build (that had a "fresh" motor) quickly became my second build where I learned the value of sludge trap out assurance. I have since decided to expect all old bikes need a full tear down and proper build.

That lesson has been learned the hard way by a few here.

The oil leak could possibly be gearbox oil passing the top gear oil seal, was the bike on the sidestand ?


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: Tiger] #399514
10/18/11 1:52 pm
10/18/11 1:52 pm
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 289
Goldendale, Washington
4
40 Below! Offline
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Goldendale, Washington
Have a customer engine on the bench now that was "rebuilt top to bottom" and wet sumped from day one. Cause.... a shop rag left in the case, wrapped around the intake cam and shredding itself, the resulting fluff plugging the intake screen in the sump. Result... an expensive rebuild. Bore, crank grind etc.


"Growing old is obligatory - growing up is optional"
2015 HD Geezer Glide
85 Sportster Rocket Ship
69 Sportster resto project
66 TR6SR(750 tracker)
?? TR25 tracker
67 441 resto project
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399556
10/18/11 6:27 pm
10/18/11 6:27 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,413
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Nice. That mechanic should count his blessings he's not a doctor and leaving a set of hemostats in someone's abdomen!! shocked

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399610
10/18/11 10:18 pm
10/18/11 10:18 pm
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 150
Austin TX
fil Offline OP
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fil  Offline OP
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Austin TX
Stuart, yes I'm sure. I have verified it and got spark. Thank you for the very informative link to the triples site. It will come in handy for my t160 as well!

As for gear oil, it is possible. It is now on center stand. The oil is in the rear and I can hear the gurgle of oil as it spits it out on the chain is why is suspected it was oil. The good news is my chain is nice and lubed though I am not convinced it is from one source. Going home now to troubleshoot and possibly fire. Thank you all for your comments, I will post results tonight or tomorrow.


Fil
'70 BSA a650t chop
'65 lighnting rocket bobber project
'69 Bonnie
'75 T160 Trident
750 honda
Suzuki 350 two stroke
other useless piles of metal
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399613
10/18/11 10:37 pm
10/18/11 10:37 pm
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,821
ohio
shel Offline
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ohio
Shut off your chain oiler, all they're really good for is making a mess anyway. Good chain lube is much better and doesn't fling off as bad.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399652
10/19/11 3:52 am
10/19/11 3:52 am
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 150
Austin TX
fil Offline OP
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fil  Offline OP
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Austin TX
Well gents, she LIVES!!! after a few kicks she decided to roar to life. I was doubtful without a battery source but after it fired once, she seemed to want to start with one kick. Overjoyed to say the least. Shel, I will definitely be blocking the chain oiler. I did a once over after it ran for a few minutes and that is definitely the source of almost all of the oil. There is some also from oil lines that will need attention, but nothing big. I don't doubt there will be no harm in blocking the oiler, but I'm wondering why so much oil from the oiler? It was excessive, perhaps a cup or so when said and done. Thoughts?

Now waiting on my gas tank to dry after a good de varnishing, then lights, followed by tackling the gaiters, another topic I'll have questions on. If anyone here knows an easy way to install them I am ALL ears. Thanks!


Fil
'70 BSA a650t chop
'65 lighnting rocket bobber project
'69 Bonnie
'75 T160 Trident
750 honda
Suzuki 350 two stroke
other useless piles of metal
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399666
10/19/11 8:31 am
10/19/11 8:31 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,375
Scotland
kommando Offline
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Scotland
If you buy good quality gaitors and some silicone rubber spray lubricant you can slide the gaitors on from the bottom after removing the wheel, mudguard, mudguard stays etc. You leave the forks in postion and the triple trees. Take it slowly to avoid tearing the rubber. Watch what gaitors you get, some are not UV protected and split in a year, good quality ones will last years. I put orginals on my Commando 20 odd years ago, just rebuilt the forks and the orginal gaitors would be reusable on a rider but not a restoration.

Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399675
10/19/11 10:25 am
10/19/11 10:25 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,965
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Hi Fil,

Originally Posted By: fil
I will definitely be blocking the chain oiler.
why so much

The chain oiler should be connected to a small pipe on the oil tank filler neck. Inside the neck, in the continuation of that pipe, you should find a pointed slotted screw and a spring. Tighten the screw (don't go mad) and that should be the chain oiler stopped.

Originally Posted By: fil
gaiters,

+1 for kommando's advice; for a lubricant/cleaner, I use normal spray-on furniture polish containing silicone.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399683
10/19/11 12:01 pm
10/19/11 12:01 pm
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
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Melbourne Australia
The '69 bikes had the chain oiler pipework hardware but it was never attached, your oil leak could be from [if not from the gearbox] the crankcase breather or the oil tank breather.

The '69 had a dipstick attached to the filler cap but full level is with hot aerated oil, if you fill to that level cold you will get oil venting out of the tank breather.

Scribe a line about 3/8" down the dipstick from full for cold fill.

I have never run the factory breather pipework, my crankcase breather line vents via a filter under the gearbox and the oil tank vent is run under the the rear mudguard to exit under the licence plate.

The std crankcase breather system forms a loop under the gearbox and then lifts to pretty much top of oil tank level, that invites fluid lock at the low point and even if not crankcase breather backpressure is high.

That makes for oil leaks elsewhere.

Depending on condition of your engine you will get probably one drop of oil out of the crankcase breather every couple of miles, hardly a traction hazard.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399727
10/19/11 4:11 pm
10/19/11 4:11 pm
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 150
Austin TX
fil Offline OP
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fil  Offline OP
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Austin TX
Kommando and Stuart, thank you for confirming my hopeful suspision. I looked at it last night and thought maybe... just maybe...

Tiger, my pipework hardware is definately attached. It runs north up to the oil tank and plumbed in there with what is likely an overfill or breather (going by memory now). Looks very factory. Not the first odd thing about this 69 non US t120. It also has the bigger tank and factory paint not listed as far as I've found. I've had someone suggest it is a "factory touring model" not exported to the us.

I will be looking for the "shut off" tonight Stuart. Thanks again guys, one step closer to putting this beauty on the road!!!


Fil
'70 BSA a650t chop
'65 lighnting rocket bobber project
'69 Bonnie
'75 T160 Trident
750 honda
Suzuki 350 two stroke
other useless piles of metal
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399752
10/19/11 7:02 pm
10/19/11 7:02 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,965
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Hi Fil,

Originally Posted By: fil
Not the first odd thing about this 69 non US t120. It also has the bigger tank and factory paint not listed as far as I've found. I've had someone suggest it is a "factory touring model" not exported to the us.

It would be good to see some photos. but I'll take an educated guess you have what Triumph called the "UK & General Export" (as opposed to the "US") variant.

The US variant has a 3.3-US-gallon (2.75-Imperial-gallon) tank whereas your bike's can hold nearly 5 US gallons (4 Imp. gallons)? If your bike's tank paint is original or original-pattern:-

. either the top 'half' is Olympic Flame (a dark orange) and the lower 'half' is Silver, with the dividing line off the rear top corner of each tank badge and following the top edge of each knee cutout;

. or the top half is Olympic Flame and the lower half is Silver, with the dividing line off the rear bottom corner of each tank badge and following the bottom edge of each knee cutout?

Also, while US-market bikes originally had 3.25x19 front and 4.00x18 rear tyres, the latter on a WM3 rim; yours originally had (still has?) 3.00x19 front and 3.50x18 rear tyres, the latter on a WM2 rim.

If yours is a UK&GE bike, you'll find a picture and all the bits listed in parts book SPC9 - the US-market book is SPC7. The bike could've come in originally via Canada - where dealers were often supplied direct from Meriden - or it could've been bought and used in GB or Germany by a US serviceman, then shipped to the US at the end of his (or her) deployment.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: kommando] #399754
10/19/11 7:06 pm
10/19/11 7:06 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,413
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted By: kommando
If you buy good quality gaitors and some silicone rubber spray lubricant you can slide the gaitors on from the bottom after removing the wheel, mudguard, mudguard stays etc.


While it's certainly easier to find silicone spray lubricant, there's a product called P-80 Emulsion:

http://www.ipcol.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=2&cat=Lubricants

It makes installing rubber bits a snap and leaves no residue. Perfect too for oil seals....

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399766
10/19/11 8:42 pm
10/19/11 8:42 pm
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 150
Austin TX
fil Offline OP
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Austin TX
Steve, thanks for the link. I will look into ordering some. Also I have had good luck with dipping rubber parts in hot water and massaging them to soften them up first. I also like the polish idea.

Stuart, Your educated guess is correct from what I and others here agree on. That it is a UK and General Export model with the bigger tank. It is after all a t120 not a t120R. Below is the picture I posted here looking for I.D. help. The odd thing is, when I got the bike and asked about the paint scheme not being original, he stated that he was certain it had not been painted. Obviously he might be mistaken. I will note the wheel size tonight.


Last edited by fil; 10/19/11 8:44 pm.

Fil
'70 BSA a650t chop
'65 lighnting rocket bobber project
'69 Bonnie
'75 T160 Trident
750 honda
Suzuki 350 two stroke
other useless piles of metal
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399779
10/19/11 9:58 pm
10/19/11 9:58 pm
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,895
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
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btour Offline
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Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: fil
Bike: 1969 t120
History unknown. Purchased non running clean original with 8 K miles. PO said it was taken apart to build a racer and that was it. I put it together and WILL be riding it soon.



Hi fil,

From this discussion it is not clear if your bike was properly broken in after it was re-built.

If not, do you know the proper break-in procedure?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399784
10/19/11 10:27 pm
10/19/11 10:27 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,965
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Scotland
Hi Fil,

Originally Posted By: fil
picture I posted here looking for I.D. help. The odd thing is, when I got the bike and asked about the paint scheme not being original, he stated that he was certain it had not been painted. Obviously he might be mistaken.

He's definitely mistaken - there's no way that paint job came out of Meriden, '69 or otherwise.

As I say, your bike was originally Olympic Flame & Silver, same as the US-market bikes, but the tank pattern was different. I tried Google images with "1969 Triumph Bonneville" but they're all either in the US-market pattern, TR6 dark red or '70 Astral Red & Silver; frown the closest I could find is this one - imagine Olympic Flame where the picture is Astral Red and you'll get the idea (with rack and 'eyebrow' badges, the tank is older). Your bike's oil tank and sidepanel would've been Black originally, same as a US-market bike.

I'm sorry I missed your picture first time around, I must have had something else on around the time 'cos I usually get 'round to reading that type of post unless something like work diverts me. wink Btw, other UK&GE-specific parts I see in your picture are the black front mudguard (fender) mounting stays, the rear light and licence plate mounting; otoh, the 'bars are US-market.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399812
10/20/11 2:30 am
10/20/11 2:30 am
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 150
Austin TX
fil Offline OP
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Austin TX
The rear rim states WM3 the tire 4.5x18. Front 3.25x19 wm(something illegible). Curious... non US motor, US wheels, non US tank, US handlebars. Non US tail light, in the US. Fair enough Stuart, going to settle for "multicultural". Motor sounds amazing, no doubt it will perform well when I'm done. And at my purchase price, you could easily add a zero and still be OK with a restoration candidate even if pieced together.

Bob, the motor was not completely taken apart. At 8k miles the guy removed fenders, battery, dual head, amals, and any non necessary item (then THANKFULLY put them on a shelf). He put an oil cooler, shingle carb head, brand new mikuni carb on it and brand new tires on it. Flat track job. But then life got in the way and 30 yrs later here we are. I did a pretty good shakedown on the motor and plan on a full rebuild with the proper head and carbs. For now it roars nicely. There is a good punchlist on an earlier post about what to look for.


Fil
'70 BSA a650t chop
'65 lighnting rocket bobber project
'69 Bonnie
'75 T160 Trident
750 honda
Suzuki 350 two stroke
other useless piles of metal
Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #399834
10/20/11 8:20 am
10/20/11 8:20 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,965
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Hi Fil,

Originally Posted By: fil
Curious...

Not really, when you think about it - although it's stood for thirty years, it still got ridden for twelve. Any of the previous owners could've wanted a fatter and more easily available (in the US) rear tyre, a wheel with wider rear rim would've been easily available and fitted straight in, the front rim is almost certainly still WM2, the 'bars would always have been easily available.

Originally Posted By: fil
Motor sounds amazing,
at my purchase price, you could easily add a zero and still be OK with a restoration candidate

You're obviously happy with what you've got; at the end of the day, that's all that really matters. bigt

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 69 almost ready for first fire! need some advice [Re: fil] #400048
10/21/11 5:58 pm
10/21/11 5:58 pm
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 150
Austin TX
fil Offline OP
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Austin TX
All seems likely Stuart, and yes I am delighted for now. Thank you all for your informative and helpful input. I took her on a maiden voyage last night, nothing long but around the block a few times is not a bad start. She came home with only minor drips from oil lines and I put her to bed in the garage grinning ear to ear. I'm going to throw it in the back of my 55 chevy and head to Luchenback Texas for the weekend for Harvest Classic where she will join a fleet of vintage European beauties.

Next week I will return to my T160 restoration and continue to tinker and ride the 69. Once done with the triple, this old girl will be taken down and gone through properly. Perhaps I will even bring the original paint back.
Happy here in Texas, Thanks again Y'all!


Fil
'70 BSA a650t chop
'65 lighnting rocket bobber project
'69 Bonnie
'75 T160 Trident
750 honda
Suzuki 350 two stroke
other useless piles of metal

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