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#393731 - 09/09/11 3:08 pm Cylinder hone grit  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Dr. Z Offline
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Dr. Z  Offline
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Posts: 308
Montana, USA
Last year when I got my A50 cylinder barrel back from a rebore the cross hatch pattern seemed too smooth, but I used it anyway. The rings did not seat so I am going to have it rehoned locally. What grit honing stones should be used (original BSA rings from Mitch Klempf)?


Craig Zaspel

T100R
BSA A10
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#393852 - 09/10/11 7:07 am Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 600
BrizzoBrit Online content
Life member
BrizzoBrit  Online Content

Life member

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Posts: 600
Brisbane, Australia
Go here.

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=131538&page=1


If I've copied and pasted correctly you should get the whole story (and more). Worth a read for anyone contemplating a rebore/hone.

Cheers


BSA 1969 A65F
BSA 1966 A65H
Triumph 1968 T120
Kawasaki A1R
& too many projects!
#393886 - 09/10/11 2:53 pm Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,683
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,683
Boston, Massachusetts
Dr. Z:
The typical range for grey cast iron rings is 150 to 220 grit. A lot of my dealers have settled on 180.

Several years back we brought in Aerco (private labeled by Morris oil) Break-in oil. It was popular with our dealers, but sadly the supply dried up. It was 40 weight and formulated to help prevent bore glazing during break-in. The original Morris break-in oil is now available from:

Classic Oil Supply
3023 W.Marshall Street,, Richmond, Virginia, 23230, USA
Tel: (804) 261-4140
classicoilsupply@aol.com

http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/prodview.asp?idcat=142&idProduct=93


#394060 - 09/11/11 10:32 pm Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: BrizzoBrit]  
Joined: Oct 2008
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DavidP Online content
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DavidP  Online Content
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Posts: 4,734
Gnashville
Great link, Brizzo!
I'm only halfway through that one, and I've learned so much.
Not to hijack the thread, but how much metal can be taken off with the hone?
I have some cylinders which are almost 0.020 over. If I get a piston which only needs a bit larger hole for the correct clearance, how much can I enlarge the bore just by honing with 150 stones?


You say I'm schizophrenic, but I don't believe we are. grin

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#394208 - 09/13/11 12:15 am Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Dr. Z Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dr. Z  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Montana, USA
Thanks for all of the replies. I found an agricultural machine shop here that can do a hone with 180 grit stones. Also the owner of the shop recognized the BSA cylinder barrel; he has worked on Triumphs in the past.


Craig Zaspel

T100R
BSA A10
#394213 - 09/13/11 12:52 am Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,974
Mark Z Online content
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Mark Z  Online Content
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Posts: 3,974
Owego, NY, USA
I know this wasn't asked, and excuse me for stating the obvious if you already know, but:

A bucket of hot soapy water (I recommend Simple Green or something of that ilk) is needed to remove honing grit from the cylinder. After scrubbing and drying, smear a little oil in the bores and wipe with a clean white rag. Repeat the process until the rag looks clean after wiping.


Mark Z

'67 A65 Lightning (retired for now)
'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
#394236 - 09/13/11 3:52 am Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Dr. Z Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dr. Z  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Montana, USA
Mark,

Thanks for the reminder. I will find something like Simple Green.


Craig Zaspel

T100R
BSA A10
#394491 - 09/15/11 12:49 am Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,974
Mark Z Online content
BritBike Forum member
Mark Z  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,974
Owego, NY, USA
Just another little note on Simple Green. For normal washing tasks, it can be diluted like 100 to 1. The first gallon I bought, I wasted a lot because I didn't first read the directions. Properly diluted, a gallon goes a LONG way.


Mark Z

'67 A65 Lightning (retired for now)
'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
#396055 - 09/25/11 4:07 am Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Dr. Z Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dr. Z  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Montana, USA
I got the honed cylinder barrel back from the Ag Machine Shop with a nice 150 grit crosshatch pattern, put it back together and went for a short "spirited" ride. It is remarkable how much better the A50 runs with properly seated rings. Thanks for all the help.


Craig Zaspel

T100R
BSA A10
#396917 - 09/30/11 10:41 pm Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Dr. Z Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dr. Z  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Montana, USA
Here are some real data for Overandout rather than conjecture:

With the old rings on a climb over a mountain pass it was necessary to shift down to third.

Today I climbed the same pass in 4th at 65 mph.

Much better with the seated rings.


Craig Zaspel

T100R
BSA A10
#396931 - 10/01/11 12:02 am Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Dr. Z Offline
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Dr. Z  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Montana, USA
Allan,

It was assembled dry with a drop or two of oil on the piston skirts. After initial start-up it did not idle for more than 10 seconds and I took it out for a ride. I live on the edge of town so it was possible to do a good acceleration in all gears with acceleration and slowing for about three miles. After cool-down the head was re-torqued and the valves checked. Even accelerating in first gear immediately after start-up the engine has a different sound as the throttle is opened.


Craig Zaspel

T100R
BSA A10
#396971 - 10/01/11 10:04 am Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: ]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,393
BSA_WM20 Online content
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BSA_WM20  Online Content
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Sydney Australia
Yep, John changed my whole idea of engine assembly, for the better.
I used to flood oil into every nook and cranny before I read his posts for which I am eternally grateful.
So it is dry assembly for me, kick t , if it starts then blat around the block a few times then pop the bike on the stand to do the carb adjustments.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#397002 - 10/01/11 4:03 pm Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,810
Alex Offline
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Alex  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,810
Seattle
The "dry assembly" method pertains ONLY to the cylinder bores. All bearing journals or sliding surfaces like lifters should be liberally treated to a coat of assembly lube. Do NOT dry assemble any plain bearings.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#397118 - 10/02/11 3:18 pm Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,683
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,683
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
so simply you rode it as normal.


I am glad you brought this up. I rarely get time alone away from constant questions and telephones. So I was looking forward to the car ride to the 2011 Vincent Rally in New York. I have had this topic running around in my brain for years and it surfaced some where around Brimfield on the Massachusetts Turnpike.

Most have heard George Bernard Shaw's quote: "England and America are two countries separated by a common language." In my mind this also extends to to the motorcycles we ride. For what seem to me to be obvious reasons, the automotive and motorcycle experience is vastly different in the two cultures. In a period where there was great developments in automotive engineering both countries where going through a depression. This created two completely different automotive cultures.

We had vast amounts of cheap oil and iron ore deposits and Britain had neither. We produced engines that were heavy (cast iron blocks, crankshafts, even pistons), low revving and produced gobs of torque. While our British cousins were using light weight materials (aluminum and Magnesium), low torque and producing its power with gobs of rpm.

Simply stated Horse Power is Torque x RPM. We designed heavy land cruisers and followed the Torque path and the British trimmed all the weight from the designs and went down the road of higher revving engine designs.

So, when you say, "so simply you rode it as normal." many of our US readers feel you are screaming the H-e-l- l out of the engine. Our Chevy Suburban at 1500 rpm in high gear at 65 mph is how we learned life should be. As Norman Hyde is fond of saying, "American's love cuubbicc inches!"

This has been one of my great conundrums trying to explain to someone that it is normal to run these bikes between 3,000 and 5,000 rpm. You are abusing it running it at 1500 rpm in high gear with a 21 or 22 tooth sprocket!!


#397138 - 10/02/11 5:23 pm Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,683
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,683
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
it doesn't pull as freely as before.


Thus increasing dynamic cylinder pressure and greatly increasing the chance the engine will detonate, which can lead to pre-ignition. Nearly all engines tolerate some detonation, but in a couple of engine revolutions pre-ignition will hole a piston, or worse.


#397142 - 10/02/11 5:56 pm Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Dr. Z Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dr. Z  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 308
Montana, USA
Forty five years ago I got my first A50 and the BSA dealer gave clear instructions to be easy on the engine for the first 500 miles. I followed these directions, and remembering back that far it seems as if the rings did not set then either when compared with my second A50 today.

After a forty year lay-off, my riding style has changed due to my T100R. During my first ride I was disappointed with its performance, so as a last resort I tried opening the throttle in second. Now I take it up to about 5000 rpm before shifting.


Craig Zaspel

T100R
BSA A10
#397148 - 10/02/11 7:46 pm Re: Cylinder hone grit [Re: Dr. Z]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,683
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,683
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
greatly increasing the chance the engine will detonate


Not all detonation is audible to the rider. Put a wind screen on your bike and you will be scared to death. Modern engines use knock sensors which pick up detonation you wouldn't typically hear over the engine noise.

Of course there are other factors that will increase the chances the engine will detonate when you do this especialy the "motor" octane of the gasoline you are using.

But this was aimed at an interested reader, and not specifically to your situation. And anyway, "generally" should imply it can, but not always.



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