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#391142 - 08/23/11 9:45 am Torque for spokes  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 226
machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
Hi. I'm planning to lace the 4 wheels which are for the 1965 rear wheel(steel spool), the 1968 front wheel, sprung hub MK2 and 1955 front wheel(8" drum and brake panel with air scoop). Bought the stainless spokes from Buchanan's. It might be depend on individual taste but just wondering what the torque for the spokes(nipples?) of those wheels should be as standard. Does anybody know? I've heard that the torque for the spokes(nipples) of 1965 rear wheel is 55 in/lbs but isn't it too tight? Any advices would be appreciated. smile

Thanks,
Machico

Last edited by machico; 08/23/11 11:32 am.
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#391213 - 08/23/11 4:59 pm Re: Torque for spokes [Re: machico]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,890
kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,890
Scotland
According to John Healy you should be aiming for 30 to 35 in/lbs

http://www.tioc.org/lacing371007rim.htm

#391293 - 08/23/11 11:08 pm Re: Torque for spokes [Re: machico]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
The problem here is that the Triumph front wheel castings can be weak. Even Buchanan has broken Triumph front wheel hub castings. The tension on the spoke can take a big triangular chunk right out of the drum's spoke flange. This is why we recommend that you be careful when working on one of these front wheels.

The rear wheel is a different story as they can take a bit more torque. 40 to 45 + isn't out of the question depending on the rim.

Other consideration is the rim itself and type of nipples used:

Central Wheel rims are not as stiff as the o.e.m. rim and will not support as much torque. If you do not liberally lubricate around the area of the nipple that contacts the rim the nipple can drill a hole in the rim as you tighten it.

Buchanan stainless nipples are prone to galling even o.e.m. rims resulting that you can actually bore a hole in the rim as you tighten them.

One must attentive when tightening nipples. If the spoke isn't getting tighter as you tighten the nipple it is probably boring a hole in the rim.


#391345 - 08/24/11 3:49 am Re: Torque for spokes [Re: kommando]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
Kommando,

Thanks for the website. It's very informative! Thanks! smile

Thanks,
Machico

Last edited by machico; 08/24/11 4:24 am.
#391347 - 08/24/11 4:23 am Re: Torque for spokes [Re: John Healy]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
John Healy,

Thank you so much for your advices! smile
I didn't know that the triumph front wheel castings can be weak. Good to know. Thanks smile Also I have to be careful when I use the Central wheel rims and the Buchanan stainless nipples.

I use Excel alloy flanged rims for all my hubs. I have the Buchanan stainless nipples and the Buchanan nickel plated steel nipples but which nipples do you recommend? I was going to use the steel nipples to avoid the electric corrosion.

Actually Buchanan told me that the torque for 1965 rear spokes is 55 but I don't know the recommended torque for the other wheels. I don't want to break the hubs and rims but what torque for those wheels do you recommend?

Thanks,
Machico

#391572 - 08/25/11 4:00 am Re: Torque for spokes [Re: Ray in Sunny CA]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
Ray in Sunny CA,

Thanks for the info. Wish he would advise me shocked

Thanks,
Machico

#391579 - 08/25/11 5:59 am Re: Torque for spokes [Re: Ray in Sunny CA]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
Hi Ray in Sunny CA,

Thank you so much! I'll try.
I appreciate your kindness. smile

Thanks,
Machico

#391619 - 08/25/11 2:53 pm Re: Torque for spokes [Re: machico]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
Buchanan's have been using blank Devon rims which they dimple, pierce and chrome for British wheels. These rims are quite a bit heavier construction, and I might add more than a bit more expensive, than the standard Central Wheel "British chrome" rims. For what I believe is the price factor, we sell 100 CW rims for each Devon.

Another marketing factor reflected in sales is Central Wheel has a better track record of getting the dimpling and piercing as it was on the original wheel. Not that you couldn't use a generic Devon rim, but you would have to change the lacing pattern. For what ever reason this seems an unsurmountable obstacle for most people in this business both at the dealer and retail level.

While, with the stiffer Devon rim, and with quite a bit of experience, one can get the spokes to pull up to 55 inch pounds, the average home wheel builder using a Central Wheel "British chrome" rim would be hard pressed to do the same. My experience using, and selling both of these rims and several others, there is no one "cookie cutter" answer to this question. While it might be possible for an experienced wheel builder to get a Central Wheel rim tensioned to 55 inch pounds, and have it straight and true, I have seen too many rims (Devon included) where a novice wheel builder pulled the nipple right through the rim trying to get there.

Buchanan has not been that straight forward with tension advice. Although asked to change this, their British spoke kits still come come with generic instructions to tighten the nipples to 80 inch pounds. Yes, when asked, they give advice, but it reflects their experience with the Devon and their Sun rims. These are a lot heavier than the most commonly used Central Wheel rim (Central Wheel's new range of stainless rims are surprisingly heavier and stiffer). They also employee experienced wheel builders. They also have expressed reservations about the Triumph/BSA flanged cast front hub, and how much tension you can safely use with them without breaking the flange.

There are several reasons that a novice wheel builder will have trouble getting even the stiffer Devon rim to 55 inch pounds. To get any appreciable tension that approaches 55 inch pounds, all of the spokes must be tensioned equally. You are not tightening a spoke nipple, but tensioning a wheel. The spoke you are working on is directly related to 11 other spokes in a series of three adjacent triangles and has some influence on the rest of the spokes. They must all be near the tension you are working to.

Here's the problem, a lot of novice wheel builders use the spoke tension to remove wobble and hop they introduced early in the building process. You can't have a wheel that is free of hop and wobble when you loosened, or tightened, a series of spokes to move the rim and still be able to get all of the nipples at an even 55 inch pounds.

The art here, and it must be learned, is to have the rim virtually free of hop and wobble before the tensioning begins. The truing is done while the spoke nipples are free to turn with your fingers. Once the rim is hung loose, and before starting the tensioning process, you make sure that all of the nipples are run up against the rim with even tension.

It is rare that a new rim isn't round. Most of the hop and wobble we see is introduced when the rim is "hung." The time not to introduce hop or wobble into the wheel is when you first hang the rim.


#391620 - 08/25/11 3:37 pm Re: Torque for spokes [Re: John Healy]  
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rstar45 Offline
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rstar45  Offline
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Colorado
Not to hijack, but what about wheel maintenance...

Originally Posted By: John Healy

It is rare that a new rim isn't round. Most of the hop and wobble we see is introduced when the rim is "hung." The time not to introduce hop or wobble into the wheel is when you first hang the rim.



suppose you are a bit tone deaf, but you tap your spokes and you hear some "tinks" and some "thunks".

What's the procedure?

Do you have to remove the tire? Let the air out so the nipples don't damage the rim strip? Do you tighten up to the "tinks" or something in between? Can you get a decent job from sound? What is the danger of introducing hops or wobbles?

#391644 - 08/25/11 6:34 pm Re: Torque for spokes [Re: machico]  
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HawaiianTiger Online content
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HawaiianTiger  Online Content

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Maui Hawaii
I think I can add a little here to the discussion. Of the two CW rims I used on my '62, only one was what you would consider "round".

Lacing and turing a rim that is not round will never result in a properely trued rim. You really must start with a well-made rim or an undamaged used one. Trying to make round a crooked wheel by using differential torque is really impossible if you think about it.

Buchanans instructions used to state that it was impossible to achieve enough torque using the short spoke wrench. I don't know, I've been able to pull a nipple before using one! Maybe they're just too Harley oriented.

Tapping the spokes is just a method of insuring that you didn't forget to tighten one. It is not intended to be a way to "tune" the spokes like a guitar string. It is also handy for a field test to see if any spokes have loosened.

You need to really pay attention to a wheel that is going to be raced. It needs to be as true as possible and balanced perfectly. On our bikes quite a lot a variance is possible without problem because for the most part we don't ride that fast.

Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#391701 - 08/26/11 2:09 am Re: Torque for spokes [Re: HawaiianTiger]  
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Snakeoil Offline
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Snakeoil  Offline
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Upstate NY
Intersting thread. I've laced a few wheels and consulted Buchanan's regarding torque specs in the past. Some of the UJM manuals actually specify torque specs. I have a nice tiny little inch pound torque wrench (USMC calibration stamp) I found in a used tool shop for the purpose.

But I have to admit that I tend to be an old school "feel" guy when it comes to tightening spokes. The torque wrench is more of a comfort blanket than anything else.

John, your comment regarding getting the wheel true before you start to tension it is great advice. Once you start to "horse" the rim into shape or position,it's a losing battle. You'll find you have spokes that are relatively loose compared to the others and when you tighten them, the TIR for the rim changes. Although I must admit that with some of the rims I've laced lately, getting a true rim before tensioning is a bit of a challenge.

I've seen some UJM flanges with missing pie shaped pieces, too. So, it's not just Triumph wheels.

regards,
Rob

#391724 - 08/26/11 6:26 am Re: Torque for spokes [Re: Snakeoil]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
John's comment is very interesting and informative.
Good to know! Thanks!

I agree with Hawaiian Tiger. I have an experience that the new flnanged alloy rims made by Morad Akront were warped so I had to use the spoke tensions to remove the warp but couldn't remove it. I think it's impossible to true a rim in this case.

In my experience, depend on the brute strength but I think it's pretty hard to achieve enough torque with the short spoke wrench. Even it's kinda tight to pull nipples to achieve 35 inch pounds. So I use longer wrench when truing. But....is this just because I don't have enough staying power to pull 40 nipples?

Thanks,
Machico


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