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#387494 - 08/02/11 5:33 pm a65 end feed  
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timbrad Offline
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yorkshire
Does anyone know the bearing number that srm use for timming side seem to have lost mine.


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#387512 - 08/02/11 7:21 pm Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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lemans Offline
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netherlands

Last edited by lemans; 08/02/11 7:22 pm.
#387564 - 08/02/11 11:08 pm Re: a65 end feed [Re: lemans]  
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BrizzoBrit Online content
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Threads here list the NKIB 5906 C3 for the A10 conversion that SRM do and the NKIB 5907 C3 for the A65. This is information from others not my personal experience so you should verify that.

They list both of these bearings (5906, 5907)in one of their old parts catalogs, but don't say which one is for which conversion.

Cheers
Ray


BSA 1969 A65F
BSA 1966 A65H
Triumph 1968 T120
Kawasaki A1R
& too many projects!
#387576 - 08/03/11 12:17 am Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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DMadigan Online content
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I do not know the A10 bush diameter but the 5906 (47mm O.D.) is a better choice for the case as it is only about 0.025" larger O.D. than the bushing. The 5907 is 55mm O.D. which is getting near the diameter of the thick part of the case.
From the crank side the 5907 is better with the 35mm I.D. (1.378") which is closer to the 1.625" original crank dimension.

#387639 - 08/03/11 11:45 am Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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Mr Mike Offline
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I think DM's point is there are always compromises. Ideally you want the OD in the strongest part of the case and the crank journal to be as large as possible.

Mr Mike

#387641 - 08/03/11 12:09 pm Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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RGSROB Offline
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Quite right about maximising timing side case material around the bearing.These combination bearings require a heavier press fit than standard.If you put too large an OD bearing in , the load on the bearing exerted by the case will not be uniform, Failure will not be far away.
Rob

#387690 - 08/03/11 5:41 pm Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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DMadigan Online content
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If the combination bearing (ball/roller) is not required then a compromise would be the NKJ324720 - 32mm I.D. 47mm O.D. 20nn width. 5906 I.D. is 30mm.

#388069 - 08/05/11 5:23 pm Re: a65 end feed [Re: DMadigan]  
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lemans Offline
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i did the conversion myself with only the needle rollers.
shimming the crankshaft to the correct clearence isn't that difficult and a good method to set up a crankshaft. ducati does it the same way, only they preload the crankshaft.

regards A

#388146 - 08/06/11 2:07 am Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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Mr Mike Offline
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lemans,
With a needle bearing on the timing side and a roller on the drive side how do you limit movement of the crank to the timing side? I assume movement to the drive side is limiited by the lip of the roller bearing.

Mr Mike

#388171 - 08/06/11 9:12 am Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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Mark Parker Offline
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I use nkis30 52od x 30id x 22 this OD doesn't compromise the case. If you go big enough with the OD of a bearing then it hits the oil gallery which I'd rather not do. The nkis straight roller is strong and doesn't need lots of interfearence (which will close it down quit easily)because there isn't side load like when using a combination type. In a Norton size there are D/S rollers that locate both ways and can control endfloat. I use an extra ball bearing outside the alt that contols endfloat on my motor.


mark
#388177 - 08/06/11 10:12 am Re: a65 end feed [Re: Mr Mike]  
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lemans Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mr Mike
lemans,
With a needle bearing on the timing side and a roller on the drive side how do you limit movement of the crank to the timing side? I assume movement to the drive side is limiited by the lip of the roller bearing.

Mr Mike


if you only use rollers, timing side = needle, primary drive hoffman RM11L then the crankshaft is not fixed, ie it can move in axial direction.

then bolt together the crankcasehalves including the crankshaft and measure the "float" of your crankshaft (axial bearing must be in place). float is the distance you can move the crankshaft in axial direction.
minimum float acc manual is.0015 inch. detract permissable end float from your measurement and you have the distance to fill with washers etc. these should be put between the hoffman and crankweb.

your crank is then positively fixed within the crankcases.

when fitting the timing-side needle you must take care not to destroy the axial bearing.

when mine is in bits again I'll post some pictures. might be awhile, since the conversion in '84 the bottom end hasn't been dismantled.

regards A

Last edited by lemans; 08/06/11 10:13 am.
#388196 - 08/06/11 1:09 pm Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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Mark Parker Offline
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Wow that's an interesting way of doing it lemans, I tended to associate the thrust bearing with the bush and think of them together as part of a not to great set up, but I guess there is nothing wrong with the thrust bearing, plain bearing cranks always have that sort of axial location. I origonally used the smaller combination bearing because I use a Norton crank, and it would have been fine except it kept moving in the case, with resultant excess end float. Other people don't seem to have had that problem but it has given me a preference for using a straight roller and addressing end float a different way.


mark
#388205 - 08/06/11 2:04 pm Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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Mr Mike Offline
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lemans,
Quote, "when fitting the timing-side needle you must take care not to destroy the axial bearing".

What kind of axial bearing bearing are you using in conjunction with the needle bearing? I have seen a needle in combination with a radial ball bearing but not a thrust plate type bearing. I would like to see your design.

The BSA design of course uses a thrust washer. I replaced my Hoffman bearing with a radial ball bearing to eliminate the thrust washer on the timing side and retained the timing side bush. It works fine as long as the oil pressure is adequate.... but I understand that oil pressure is not a strong point of BSA twins.

Mr Mike

#388240 - 08/06/11 6:03 pm Re: a65 end feed [Re: Mr Mike]  
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lemans Offline
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http://www.skf.com/skf/productcatalogue/...rodid=146232045

this is the bearing I used, NKI 35/20 TN, rather small but adequate. when fitting it you can machine all the way through your case which is the convenient way to do it but when fitting such a small bearing you can machine a chamber and leave the inner side of your crankcase intact.

the bearing is pressed in from the outer timing side.

by leaving the inner side of your crankcase intact, you can reuse the standard axial pressure plate designed by BSA, which in itself is a appropriate solution to crankshaft end float.

never change what's not bothering you.

the contemporary solutions with combined needle roller bearings rely on sufficient pressure fit of the outer bearing ring. the needle/roller inner race is fixed on the crankshaft by the timing pignon but the outer race is pres fitted into the crankshaftcase.

regards A

#388278 - 08/07/11 1:41 am Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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Mr Mike Offline
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I understand. How does the radial load of the needle bearing compare with the roller on the primary side. I would think it is significantly less. Your solution is quite simple.

Mr Mike

#388305 - 08/07/11 10:48 am Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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Mark Parker Offline
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Radial load is refered to in 3 types; dynamic, static and fatigue limit. Compared to a Norton Commando type main roller N306 the N306 only exceeds in dynamic load rating, loosing out to the heavy series NKIS30 in static and fatigue capacity, but not by much, leman's bearing is similar to the NKIS, though is better in static, slightly less in dynamic and fatigue. Even so these needle bearings are well up to the job, and my experience is the NKIS30 outlasts the N306 drive side main in use. The std BSA roller would be similar to the Norton type.
In comparison to a ball bearing even in large Norton size 72X30X19 the needle has more than 8 times the fatigue rating, more than 3 times the static and almost double the dynamic load rating.
Possibly the bush may have a greater load rating, however it is a small dia for a plain main and in use has issues, and is difficult and complex to change.
If BSA had fitted a needle main bearing with end feed in the 60s A65s would have had a reputation as reliable and long lasting.


mark
#388310 - 08/07/11 11:29 am Re: a65 end feed [Re: timbrad]  
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Mr Mike Offline
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Mark,
I did not realize that the needle had as much dynamic radial capacity. It has been many years since I have owned a bearing manual and studied loading and I was a little surprised at the needle bearing's cpability. When I installed a ball bearing on the primary side of my bike, I think I gave up about 40% of the dynamic capability of the roller. I did it to fix the crank position. I like Leman's idea of the needle bearing and the use of the stock thrust washer to control axial movement. A minimum of machining is required but you still have the complexity of end feeding the oil. I am currently working on a small project that will eliminate the existing pressure relief system and will provide overpresure relief directly to the oil tank and of course I wil use an oil pressure gauge.

Mr Mike


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