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#57995 - 11/15/07 1:51 am different Lucas Magnetos  
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RGSROB Offline
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Ontario , Canada
Can anyone explain the difference between a Lucas competition mag and a Lucas Racing mag?
Also I have seen a Lucas wader mag on a goldie . where do they all fit in the hierarchy of mags?

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#57996 - 11/15/07 2:17 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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RF Whatley Online content
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North Georgia, USA
As far as I know, Lucas only made 3 mags in recent history:
the Mag-Dyno (mag-generator combo of the moving coil variety, used last on BSA Gold Stars)
the S1 and S2 series (a moving magnet mag used on Enfields, a copy of which was used on HD Sportsters)
the K2F series (a moving coil design copied from BTH)

The later was also available in K2FC, the "competition" version, which was more water tight.


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#57997 - 11/15/07 12:18 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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RGSROB Offline
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Ontario , Canada
OK so the comp mag was more waterproof- I guess the screw on pick up housing etc achieved that, I am holding a Lucas mag with a green background label that says Lucas Racing magneto.major physical difference seems to be a higher profile presumably for a larger magnet. The mag also has the same screw on point cover as the competition units

#57998 - 11/15/07 8:03 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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Don M. Offline
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There were a couple of contact covers for K2F mags. Plastic that accepts a wire to the kill button & a metal one with a built-in kill button. These use pickups retained by a clip & have 2 small vent holes at the bottom.

Competion mags have a stronger output & a screw on cover with an insulated terminal for a kill wire. They also use pickups with a clip & have the same vent holes in the bottom.

Racing mags, also known as "Waders" have a screw on cover with a nipple to accept a vent hose & an insulated terminal for the kill wire. They do not have the vent holes & the pickups are fastened by 2 screws each. If the gaskets are in good condition & the vent hose is routed high, they will work immersed in water.

Anybody wanna buy a 50's Triumph competion mag? Have some others, too. Contact me at don_madden@msn.com.

#57999 - 11/16/07 4:03 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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johnm Offline
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I thought there were two types of K2F Lucas mags.

The expensive ordinary Lucas K2F mag which had a black label and was a piece of junk which always failed.

And the super expensive Competition Lucas K2F mag with a red label which was a piece of junk and always failed. beerchug

#58000 - 11/16/07 10:39 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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RGSROB Offline
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Ontario , Canada
well i guess Lucas went a lttle further than Johny Walker with their labels.Oddly i have yet to have any of them fail (totally)on the Lucas product. The Scotch on the other hand always works
The racing mag i have(is actually for a velo K1FR?) it has the same screw on points cover with breather tube as the comp mag.The housing is about .3 inches taller than the standard K1F. K2F.It does produce a pretty good spark but i am going to take it down to check it out

#58001 - 11/18/07 1:48 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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RF Whatley Online content
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North Georgia, USA
Come to think of it, there WAS a "racing" version. My pal Beno Rodi, who has been everywhere and done everything, says that only the factory race teams used them. I've only seen 1 in my entire life. They are very rare.

I'm not sure what the exact difference is, over the "competition" version. Maybe just hand assembled with more care?


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#58002 - 11/18/07 7:30 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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RGSROB Offline
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Ontario , Canada
OK and thanks RF - got a bit more info and a question for you. Normally on a K1F the slip ring and HT pick up are located in the main body adjacent to the points housing. At flange mounting end there is a carbon brush -for ground?
Anyway on this racing K1f the slip ring and HT pick up are at the flange end of the casting.Opposite to standard.
There is no evidence of a carbon brush but there is a horizontal tapped hole 90 degrees to the HT pick up.It looks about 2BA
Could this be for a grounding screw?

#58003 - 11/19/07 1:17 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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In his book "The Colemans" Rod Coleman, AJS works rider early 1950s, winner of 195(4?) 350 TT on a three valve factory 7R devotes a few pages to the short comings of some of the British third party suppliers. Especially Lucas and AMAL.

He said that he suffered several failures with Lucas mags on the AJS Porcipine twin. A fix had been identified but not completed on the AJS mags. Then he saw a Lucas mag on an Italian or German GP bike and it had the recommended mod. He blasted the Lucas rep asking when the AJS mags were still made the old way and was told the British manufacturers would not pay the extra money to fix them. Even for their GP factory race bikes.

So there were top quality Lucas racing mags. They were just never used by the British teams !!

PS Im pretty sure this story is true. My father and uncle both knew Coleman for 30 or 40 years

#58004 - 11/19/07 1:19 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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Gordo in Comox Offline
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Here are three of the Lucas mags for singles. There is KNR1 listed in some refs.

The Magdyno marked MO1



The competition mag marked KNC1



The same basic competition mag but with a different front points housing marked N1 4 AMC (has extra plate on base to match BSA)



Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
#58005 - 11/19/07 1:36 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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RGSROB Offline
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Ontario , Canada
Hi Gord, going to send you some pictures, perhaps you can post to Forum-I cannot!
In Addition , to your mags and some of the others mentioned I recall a twin lead Lucas racing mag fitted to my friends G50 Matchless.
Seems like Lucas was quite prolific in this area

#58006 - 11/19/07 5:04 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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RGSROB: Your photos






Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
#58007 - 11/20/07 12:07 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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And then there's the SRM/Boyer conversion for the POS/olde Lucas mags for Proper Electronic Triggered ignition as I and many of my friends use. Gee, we actually Ride The Bikes. Pull out the armature and slip in the SRM trigger unit, wire it up and Ride!

On the All Brit Ride in NoCA a couple of weeks ago, our friend Tim from NoCA showed me his Boyer trigger conversion for a K2F on his Spitfire using Boyer pieces. But he has a 'back yard' machine shop for doing such stuff and he likes doing 'things'.
BTW, Tim is one of the guys who rode his Goldie (with a SRM/Boyer) from NoCA to Mass for the BSA gathering last summer. I admire that.


dave - NV
#58008 - 11/20/07 12:45 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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Dave: I am with you as far as using modern ignition for machines that will be ridden, I am just not sure which option to go for. Is anyone in your crowd using one of the Powerdynamo units advertised on this site?

Gordo


Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
#58009 - 11/21/07 11:42 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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RGSROB Offline
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Ontario , Canada
Many thanks for posting the pics of my racing mag,(second group above). The two remaining mysteries are the apparent absence of a grounding brush and the tapped hole in the rib near the flange, Is it possible this is for a grouding system of some kind?
any ideas?

#58010 - 11/21/07 7:40 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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EWebster Offline
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Dave says:
Quote:
And then there's the SRM/Boyer conversion for the POS/olde Lucas mags for Proper Electronic Triggered ignition as I and many of my friends use. Gee, we actually Ride The Bikes. Pull out the armature and slip in the SRM trigger unit, wire it up and Ride!
HA! A Proper Electronic Triggered ignition would be nowhere near the lil' kitchen table or "platform" BSA had the mag attached to with a glorified hose clip.
Have Pearson machine some teeth in the rim of the flywheel and locate a reset pin and mag pickup and then maybe you would have a properly triggered system. Reliability? You better have a decent charging system with your POS Boyer system. Not so simple, eh? I keep looking in all the race results in the magazines from the forties and even the fifties but still haven't come across your name in the results. Strange. Dagnabbit, me and my elite actual RIDING buddies selectively update only what we can't make work and keep all the other outdated POS features. Sheesh!

Since this posting was about the mags and not snobbish replies from me or *others*, the tapped hole by the pickup would be for the air gap screw most likely, in case the plug wire fell off the plug, the spark would go to earth through the screw. The "Racing" versions used a smaller diameter armature that was matched, machined and balanced as one. Many, if not all, originally used a Mica capacitor and it was recommended the complete mag or at least the armature be returned to the service depot for renewal. Lucas did provide a service kit to convert from Mica to "later" type caps at some point. They are a beautiful instrument in my opinion, and should be cherished as the rest of the bike should. Do you have a Velo to put it on? I would imagine all the *factory* racers did have this version but it was also available to privateers and I have seen quite a few on Catalinas over the years...some that would lose sparkie when hot....as usual. Skilled craftsmen can bring 'em back no problem.

#58011 - 11/21/07 7:51 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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RGSROB Offline
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Ontario , Canada
great reply EW! yes I have a venom clubman that is going to receive this very nice instrument.
Thank you very much for clearing up the use of the tapped hole!
I also concur completely about the electronic solutions. The achilles heel is the absence of an alternator based charging system.
Certainly available via Alton but for now I prefer to stay with the MAG and Lucas 6 Volt generator nicely controlled by a Podtronic regulator

#58012 - 11/21/07 8:02 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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Don M. Offline
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California
But no one seems to have answered the question on where the ground brush is.

It is located under the ID plate, so the unwary can break it by trying to remove the armature without first removing ID plate, ground brush & spark gap screw, & the pickup, too, of course.

Cheers, Don.

#58013 - 11/21/07 9:01 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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dave - NV Offline
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Gee Webster (is that your name?) ... You obviously 'really know your stuff'! Golly sakes alive, I'm impressed by your logic and knowledge of near everything as I'm sure you are too. I'm saddened that neither myself or bikes are up to your obvious superior standards. But I sure wish you wouldn't call me names, as I may just burst into tears feeling rejected and humiliated.

Regards the 'crank triggered ignition' you mention I should use ... Hmmm, our GS racer has been sparked with a Boyer Crank Triggered Micro Powered ignition since it was first built up some years ago. It must be working well as the bike has won it's last 8 or 9 race meets.
I'd post you some pictures of the dual plug ignition system that has performed without fault, but with you being so secretive and all I don't have access to your Email address. Who or what are you hiding from? Perhaps someone you've 'impressed'?

I used the competition Lucas mags since they were new without a failure during The Era. Compared to the Magdyno they were a nicely made unit. However it's now many years later and those mags are old, weak and prone to failure. And many of the rebuilds are also unrelieable.
This is why some of us 'snobs'(heehee) have gone to the SRM/Boyer conversion and also use a 12v Alton alternator. However a 6v dynamo with a 12v regulator will do the job and it worked for me until I fitted an Alton.

However I'm interested in using one of the new 'Powerdynamo' MZB systems Gordo has mentioned on my next GS project bike.

Ya'll have good sparks now y'ear.
You too Webster. (is that your real name?)


dave - NV
#58014 - 11/21/07 9:10 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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Gordo in Comox Offline
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As EW points out the real issue is most likely the ability for the machine to produce enough electricity to run a modern Electronic setup and in any case to make enough juice to provide good lights.

How have folks been solving the electrical issue on the early machines?

Gordo


Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
#58015 - 11/21/07 11:06 pm Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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EWebster Offline
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Save the superior attitude stuff. People are into bikes for all kinds of reasons and it was pretty clear to me that unless they ride the twisties on a goldie with your group they don't account for much.

Hats off to you and all you do, Dave, it is a lot of fun isn't it? Some folks have fun putting them all back stock and never riding them. Great. The man wanted to know the difference between the competition mag and the racing mag. They are different. I don't post alot, but when I see a post go unanswered that I can help on I might. I will also try to do so in a neutral fashion. I can also be a caustic abrasive bully with the best of them if someone cops a 'tude or discounts their interests. The logic of not using mags 'cause they are "old, weak and prone to failure. And many of the rebuilds are also unrelieable (sic)" applies equally to the bikes themselves and certain owners for that matter smile
I asked Jim Hunter years ago about goldie secrets and he basically said "go buy a yz400 like mine, smoke some dope and get laid instead ". Perspective.

Glad to help RGS...

#58016 - 11/22/07 3:14 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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RGSROB Offline
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many thanks for the "look under the id tag" info.
I was about to do something I would regret.
I do not know where the idea that bikes with mags are just for posing came from.?
My small fleet all have working mags,The RGS has covered 18,000 miles since it's restoration in 1990. All the mag got then was a pair of new insulating washers and points. The velo venom still on its original mag etc,etc. Certainly they will fail one day but until then I will bang along with my mag and 6 volt electrics.
Many thanks to all for helping me with good information.
Wonder how many of the electronic sparks systems will still be producing 50 years after installation.
I tend to think that like most solid state things they will be in the trash more frequently than we would like and be replaced by smaller faster more expensive solutions.

#58017 - 11/22/07 4:59 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos  
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HUGOCT Offline
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looking for information on the Lucas rotating magnet racing mag as fitted to the late model Norton Manx
Is a parts breakdown available?
any source for parts?
We have one on one of our Goldstars

#388301 - 08/07/11 9:11 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos [Re: RGSROB]  
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db133 Offline
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East Sussex UK
Hi

I have been looking for magneto information and have found:

Lucas Quality Equipment: Spares Parts 1936-1957.
Workshop Instructions Magnetos
Issue 1 jan 1953

I was also looking for a list a wots wot details list etc and rewind info but can not find.

Any further information will be most appreciated.

#388307 - 08/07/11 11:10 am Re: different Lucas Magnetos [Re: db133]  
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db133 Offline
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East Sussex UK
Just found this :

Identifying a KVFTT
Visually, there are numerous distinctive features that identify KVFTT magnetos from their KVF relation, as follows:

Magneto body made of lightweight alloy (sometimes magnesium based). Armature pickups parallel to each other (K2FC's had one pickup at an approximate 10 degree angle to the other).
Stainless Steel armature?
On some magneto's the words 'Lucas' cast into the top of the armature body. I believe these were the earlier bodies
Magneto body had a flat land between the pickups with cylinder numbers stamped onto casing and a brass plate screwed on, inscribed 'Lucas Racing Magneto', the background highlighted in red.
A clockwise direction arrow stamped into the top of the magneto.
Magneto Type(KVFTT)/Model Number (42201)/Date of Manufacture stamped into top face of mounting flange. This was unlike most other Lucas magnetos of the same period, which were fitted with an aluminium identification plate in the same area, with the details stamped on the plate. I do not know of any examples of KVFTT magnetos with a similar plate fitted, even though red competition plates were made for K2FC magnetos.
manual advance/retard casting, with cable pickup on left hand side (looking end cap on). As far as I know this magneto was the only magneto fitted with this casting, it being almost a mirror image of the casting fitted to a Lucas NR1 magneto.
Hexagonal competition bolts with wiring holes, as fitted to other Lucas competition magnetos.
A very distinctive screw on end cap with six breather holes spaced evenly around a central hump. I have never seen this end cap fitted to any other magneto so assume it was made specifically for the KVFTT. I am not sure if it was fitted to every KVFTT as I have seen some magnetos fitted with the more normal competition cap, fitted to K2FC's.
Early magnetos were painted gold, I believe this was to protect the magnesium alloy from the atmosphere. Later magnetos seem to have been painted silver, although it seems the last (alloy) bodied magnetos might have been left unpainted.

Found it here : http://www.racingvincent.co.uk/01%20Web%20Frames/WD-pvn05a_magneto.html

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