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clutch wear? #38701
05/14/08 4:27 pm
05/14/08 4:27 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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so, again on the A10, I have been getting really bad leakage from my primary case at the gearbox mainshaft, behind the clutch where the drive chain is.

I guess I have two questions. I just changed this oil a few weeks ago, it was dirty, with some glistening particles floating in it. now, with just a few hundred miles (if that) the oil coming from that mainshaft is nearly gold in color! the oil is black, but there is so much glittery shrift in it that it looks like nail polish for a teenager!!

at first I was very worried, then i thought perhaps it is simply the friction material from the clutch plates. I do get quite a whir with the clutch pulled in and the gearbox in first.

so my questions are:

how much friction plate material should I be getting in that oil? (and is it gold, or am I wearing a brass bushing somewhere)

and how hard is it to replace the seal for that mainshaft? is it a flat gasket type seal, or a spring and rubber seal, as in the drive end of the magneto? would I have to pull the chaincase fully off to get to it (I expect)?


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
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Re: clutch wear? #38702
05/14/08 6:52 pm
05/14/08 6:52 pm
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 614
Ontario , Canada
R
RGSROB Offline
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RGSROB  Offline
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R
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 614
Ontario , Canada
Hi Snowbeard, I am not clear as to which oil you changed?
if it was gearbox,(by the way which gbox is fitted?) then you have some serious wear taking place on the main shaft bushes or the bush press fitted inside the main shaft 4th gear.
Yes you do have to take the whole primary side off to change the seal.However, you must first find the source of your brass bits because you might be into a complete gbox teardown. Not as frightening as it sounds they are pretty straight forward.

Re: clutch wear? #38703
05/14/08 8:21 pm
05/14/08 8:21 pm
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 91
The Netherlands
Dick1969 Offline
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Posts: 91
The Netherlands
Snowbeard,
I agree with Rob, most likely it is the gearbox.
Because if the oil is coming form the primary it maybe over filled. And that oil is in my experience usualy black. And so far i know there are no brass parts in the primary.
So my guess is also the gearbox that there is somehow wear near the mainshaft.
Usualy not difficult to repair.

Regards,
Dick


1954 BSA B31 plunger
1989 GL1500 Aspengate
Re: clutch wear? #38704
05/14/08 9:51 pm
05/14/08 9:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
well I changed the gearbox oil (95W 140 I think) and topped off the primary as in the service sheets, filled to the level screw hole with the bike off centerstand. the oil from the gearbox was much cleaner, but still had a little shiny to it.

I'm pretty sure this is primary oil as it's dripping down the inside of the primary more heavily than from the gearbox side of the mainshaft, with the chain drive gear between primary and gearbox separating the two sources. also it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as thick as the gearbox oil. I don't think it's overfilled, but it was worse and had gotten better as it lost some, now worse again after filling.

could it be the friction plates? what color bits would they make with excessive drag?

Rob- it has the scrambles gearbox as it should, STD XX stamp, SC T2 for '57


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: clutch wear? #38705
05/15/08 12:19 am
05/15/08 12:19 am
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 614
Ontario , Canada
R
RGSROB Offline
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R
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 614
Ontario , Canada
some grades of phos bronze do not react well to the high su;phur content of the gear oil you are using.The bronze breaks down quite badly, quite a lot on this in the velocette owners club forum. Suggest you dump it and use a straight sae50 as originally specified.
I doubt the particles are coming from your clutch plates.
There is a possibility that the sliding seal on the back of the primary is stuck and is creating some metal . It may be made of brass i will have to check.

Re: clutch wear? #38706
05/15/08 12:23 am
05/15/08 12:23 am
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 614
Ontario , Canada
R
RGSROB Offline
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Posts: 614
Ontario , Canada
Couple of other thoughts-
1. if it has the late clutch(4 spring triumph type) it is possible that the bronze faced thrust washer is breaking down or put in the wrong way round.
2. has somebody installed too long a brass bolt somewhere that is rubbing on something.
Looks like you need to take the primary off and go deeper if there is nothing wrong in there.

Re: clutch wear? #38707
05/15/08 4:26 am
05/15/08 4:26 am
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 346
Lake Conjola NSW Australia
pooch Offline
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Lake Conjola NSW Australia
Should not the A10 clutch be dry inside the closed cover?

I am referring to a plunger A10 as I don't what model your A10 is.


56 B31 with B33 barrel
51 Golden Flash with Dusting sidecar
Re: clutch wear? #38708
05/15/08 5:22 am
05/15/08 5:22 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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no, mine is the swing arm, it has very little oil, just enough for the chain to drag thru.

I drained it tonite and it was somewhat glittery, maybe as much as what I saw.

I filled it to the level hole this time on center stand, because that will be ever so slightly less. I'll wipe everything down real well and try a short run to pinpoint soon...


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: clutch wear? #38709
05/15/08 6:46 am
05/15/08 6:46 am
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 145
Switzerland
zambu Offline
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Switzerland
On my SA A10 the primary oil got silver very soon after changing the oil. I took off the clutch (6 spring) and found that the steel plate which comes first on the clutchhub, just behind the clutchdrum, did touch the sliding-plate. I worked a bit with the dremel on the sliding plate, seems to be ok now.

Re: clutch wear? #38710
05/15/08 6:58 am
05/15/08 6:58 am
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 145
Switzerland
zambu Offline
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Switzerland
The corpus delicti - before dremel.




Re: clutch wear? #38711
05/16/08 5:38 pm
05/16/08 5:38 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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so after wiping everything I could get my rag near, I rode 'er to work this morning.

it appears to be mostly the primary side leaking right at the shaft, as that is where most of the oil is.

so is that seal going to be a flat gasket? a rubber oring? or is there actually a bearing in there??

I'm going to order a clutch puller so I can figure this out, but it would be nice to be able to have the bushing/gasket/bearing on hand to replace at the time with the same shipment...

thanks a ton!!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: clutch wear? #38712
05/16/08 6:57 pm
05/16/08 6:57 pm
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 145
Switzerland
zambu Offline
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Switzerland
If the primary is leaking as you think, it's quite easy. There is a simple felt gasket behind the sliding plate. You can see it just a little on my picture. 42.7504 FELT WASHER A7/A10 should be the part to get. After you pulled the clutchhub, (puller needed), you remove that sliding plate, install the new gasket. Altough, from my little experience, this system is not completely leak-proof. There are people selling improved sealing-systems, but I found it a bit over-tech for my needs. My A10 does drip a bit gearbox-oil from the mainshaft, even tough the bushings in that shaft are new. To replace these you need to undo the hole gearbox and do much more work. Do you have a parts-list? If not, I recommend it, gives you good view inside. Good luck.

Re: clutch wear? #38713
08/04/08 5:33 am
08/04/08 5:33 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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well I got my clutch puller a month ago, but only today finally got the time to work on 'er.

I think I found the problem, but it doesn't give me a cause. the hub seems to be wearing into the brass seal on the floating plate. is there an adjustment side to side on the transmission?



it's worn thru on both pieces, the hub is somehow pulled too tight into the transmission. the way it sits now the oil grooves are pulled all the way thru the seal. this is probably why it's leaking so badly, not to mention how worn the brass is around the whole hub in the first place.




the basket is also loose on it's bearings, not bad perpendicular to the shaft, but lots of wobble



have we identified a replacement sealed bearing for this like the wheels? can this be replaced?


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: clutch wear? #38714
08/04/08 9:39 am
08/04/08 9:39 am
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 145
Switzerland
zambu Offline
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Switzerland
The taper in the clutch-hub might be worn, hence it pulls to close to the gearbox. It was the case on my A10. A new clutch-hub is available, SRM has it. Unfortunately the taper in the new hub I got was far too narrow, completely out of the line. Also the one from another supplier was the same. I had to spark-errode it to the correct fit. Never found out, why there are different tapers on the six spring clutch. Maybe you will??

Clutch bearings can wobble, when you get the clutch together with the springs, they get "locked".

Re: clutch wear? #38715
08/04/08 3:45 pm
08/04/08 3:45 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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thanks zambu, that makes me feel a little better about the wobble, but the taper has me a bit worried. I'll have to bolt it back up with just that hub and see where it stops.

I'll certainly share if I unearth anything in the mystery of tapers ';-)

also takes some pressure off my worries for the gearbox as it explains the shiny glittery oil.


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: clutch wear? #38716
08/04/08 4:03 pm
08/04/08 4:03 pm
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
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Flint,Mich
It seems to me to be cart before the horse situation. You put the center on the out put shaft than assemble the pieces with some new parts as needed minus the chain. Get the basket lined up with the front sprocket Modifying the front sprocket seems easiest. Now the chain is not fighting the basket and the life of all the parts improves. The chain would be in the way of getting the sprockets perfectly in line. JMO


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
Re: clutch wear? #38717
08/04/08 8:02 pm
08/04/08 8:02 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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not sure I follow? my problem isn't the chain lining up as much as it is that the assembly that holds the inner bearing race, basket, and inner clutch basket is pulling too far into the brass seal on the plate inside of the primary cover, due to being too far up the tapered shaft of the tranny.



so I've annotated this pic. I am calling this the hub, is that correct? so the area labeled "wear?" seems to be pulled too far into the transmission, up on the taper of the shaft. the oil threads stick out the seal, and the flanges have worn into the seal quite far.

here is the hub in the seal as it sits on the machine


the oil threads are sticking out the backside of this plate, where they should be just inside of the brass ring, and the flanges should be well out of the brass?

I'm not sure why this changed, when I first got her running I didn't notice the noise when I pulled in the clutch, but now I've been hearing it rub when stopped, with the clutch pulled in. I could tell it was rubbing somewhere, but just couldn't tell where.

so my immediate problem seems to be either that the clutch hub is pulled too tight up the tapered shaft, or that my tranny is shifted to the right side of the bike somehow?


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: clutch wear? #38718
08/05/08 3:08 am
08/05/08 3:08 am
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
norbsa48503 Offline
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Flint,Mich
The wear shown in the pics looks to be chain induced. Is it possible the trans is out of alignment with the engine crank? If someone made an adjustment and left the transmission bolts loose while running the bike it could snatch off the squared bosses on the housing and make it hard to get right again.


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
Re: clutch wear? #38719
08/05/08 5:14 am
08/05/08 5:14 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 9
Burpengary AUSTRALIA
M
minibsa Offline
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Posts: 9
Burpengary AUSTRALIA
possible silly question but have you got the correct size spacer between the inner primary cover and the frame? If that spacer is missing the inner case will be pulled too far out from the gearbox. (thats about as clear as mud, but look at your parts book and you should see what I am on about)
Bob.

Re: clutch wear? #38720
08/05/08 5:45 am
08/05/08 5:45 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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now that's a decent thought, bob! I haven't had the inner cover off myself, but I should look at that mount. as long as I didn't push it too hard I might even be able to extend that spacer if it is already there... before all this the case sealed well, but it was hard to tell with this leak at the shaft as well.

Norbsa, I see what you mean, but if the tranny has shifted any direction, its down on the clutch side. it has cranked over so that the lower side of the basket is hanging inward, rubbing the lower portion of that floating plate.

BUT! I have a feeling now that it is the wobble of the bearings! when I have it together with the basket pushed in all the way against the backing plate, I can see the outer second tier of bearings nearly half out of the race. this makes sense as I heard the worst rubbing when I'd pull in the clutch, letting the basket sag down on it's wobbly bearings and hit the floating plate.

I wonder if I could get a set of roller bearings to slip right in there?? along with a spacer or a washer on the frame mount of the cover, I think that might just fix this right up!

thanks for all the help so far, I'm hopeful I can get 'er back on the road shortly!!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: clutch wear? #38721
08/05/08 6:35 am
08/05/08 6:35 am
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 144
Peterborough. UK
LJ. Offline
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Peterborough. UK
Been following the thread with great interest, It does seem that the primary chaincase is to blame here. Ensure that its not warped at all and is fitted snug to the frame as Bob mentions. I doubt very much that the transmision box as moved at all, its usually a tight fit so that primary chain cannot slacken.

You mention difficulties with the clutch bearings, These need to be in the correct way round and should fit snug into the clutch drum, there is a much discussed thread about these six spring bearings on another forum. Alternative bearings are available in the UK and are obtained from... Draganfly


Hope this helps! smile


LJ.
*******
1940 BSA M20 500cc Girder/Rigid- In Bits!
1947 BSA M21 600cc Girder/Rigid-Green
1949 BSA A7 500cc Girder/Plunger Star Twin-Black
1953 BSA B33 500cc Teles/Plunger-Maroon
1961 BSA A10 650cc Golden Flash-Blue
1961 BSA A10 650cc Golden Flash-Red
Re: clutch wear? #38722
08/05/08 7:21 pm
08/05/08 7:21 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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Hi LJ, thanks for the info, that set looks very nice!

looking at the De Groots page, http://www.degroot-bsa.nl/index.php/cPath/75_93

I see that my clutch sleeve isn't all that worn down, but also that the "oil threads" as I have been calling them, are a collar that is replaceable!

[img] www.degroot-bsa.nl/popup_image.php/pID/1017 [/img]

is this what is referred to as the chain oiler? I thought the threads would keep the oil in, but...

so many thoughts, and parts are available, but I don't really want to buy each part that's a little worn.

any thoughts on buying new balls that are ever so slightly larger than the current ones to take up the slack from the race being worn down?


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: clutch wear? #38723
08/05/08 7:52 pm
08/05/08 7:52 pm
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 144
Peterborough. UK
LJ. Offline
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Peterborough. UK
Snow...

The oil threads as you call them, I believe they are there to 'encourage' the oil back into the primary case and possibly for the oil to work it's way into and around the bearings. (Correct me if I'm wrong someone!) It is deffinitly NOT a chain oiler, the chain is more than adequatly lublicated by just touching the correct oil level. I think the oil falls into those threads and at speed it is transported away from the gap to the outside world.

During running if the oil is at its correct level then there would be quite an oily splash/mist flown around the case and running down onto that adapter thing on the end of the mainshaft. It need not be replaced, also it is normal for the bearing race to be sloppy, again not needing to be replaced, its also unlikely that the balls are worn down. Really then, It's all basically a matter of putting it all back together correctly.


LJ.
*******
1940 BSA M20 500cc Girder/Rigid- In Bits!
1947 BSA M21 600cc Girder/Rigid-Green
1949 BSA A7 500cc Girder/Plunger Star Twin-Black
1953 BSA B33 500cc Teles/Plunger-Maroon
1961 BSA A10 650cc Golden Flash-Blue
1961 BSA A10 650cc Golden Flash-Red
Re: clutch wear? #38724
08/05/08 9:49 pm
08/05/08 9:49 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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you're right of course, I had already looked at them and the direction of rotation should have brought oil back into the case. I do a lot of this posting from work so I only have my shoddy memory and any pics I can post the night before to go by wink

the chain oiler I meant was the final drive chain, but it's not that either.

I'll have to check the case mounting, that might be my whole problem and then I can just reassemble. wouldn't that be grand!

Thanks again!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: clutch wear? #38725
08/06/08 3:32 am
08/06/08 3:32 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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well I'll be danged, Bob hit it!! no spacer on the frame mount at all! that's why the bottom was pulled out further and rubbing!

so now my question is does anyone know offhand what length it is supposed to be? I'll probably just use a few washers to space it out, but it would be helpful to know what size I'm actually shooting for.


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
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