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t160 wet sumping #382976
07/07/11 5:31 pm
07/07/11 5:31 pm
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cheshire
lace remington Offline OP
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hi, my t160 always wet sumps after 4 days stood idle, i have cleaned the ball and spring arrangement to no avail,. this doesn't appear to make any difference to the starting or running of the bike, and of course i wait until the oil re-appears in the tank before riding off, any known cures apart from fitting a stop tap on the tank oil pipe.

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Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383025
07/07/11 9:40 pm
07/07/11 9:40 pm
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I'm not familiar with the Triumph triples but on the twins with a plunger pump, when you strip and clean the pump, you reseat the ball bearings into the brass pump body by giving them a sharp tap with a punch and hammer.

You should also measure the length of the springs and compare them with published data. If they are too short, the preload in the springs will not be strong enough to create a seal against the pump body. The springs DO get shorter with age.

I would also remove the pump and check the condition of the ball bearing seats in the pump body with a magnifying glass and some good illumination. Also check the condition of the ball bearings using the same method.

Check the condition of the gasket behind the pump AND the mating faces on the crankcase and pump body. If they are not in good condition, you may have some oil bypassing the pump altogether.

You need to investigate this and find out why it is happening. Putting a stop tap in the oil line is not the answer to your problem.


1952 Triumph T100 in a BSA A7 Frame
Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: Mattsta] #383048
07/07/11 11:27 pm
07/07/11 11:27 pm
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Originally Posted By: Mattsta
I'm not familiar with the Triumph triples but on the twins with a plunger pump, when you strip and clean the pump, you reseat the ball bearings into the brass pump body by giving them a sharp tap with a punch and hammer.

You should also measure the length of the springs and compare them with published data. If they are too short, the preload in the springs will not be strong enough to create a seal against the pump body. The springs DO get shorter with age.

I would also remove the pump and check the condition of the ball bearing seats in the pump body with a magnifying glass and some good illumination. Also check the condition of the ball bearings using the same method.


The triples have gear pumps-so none of that information applies to the triple cylinder engine oil pumps.

Originally Posted By: lace remington
i wait until the oil re-appears in the tank before riding off, any known cures apart from fitting a stop tap on the tank oil pipe.



Just don't start up with the tank completely empty. BSA/Triumph triple engine main and big end bearings do not like being starved of oil, if the oil light does not go out when the engine starts, then stop the engine immediately, drain the oil from the sump and put it back in the tank.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 07/07/11 11:42 pm.
Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383055
07/07/11 11:43 pm
07/07/11 11:43 pm
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Do not fit a stop valve in the feed oil line - one forgetful moment and you can kiss you T160 engine good bye. And it will be expensive!!!

LP Williams offer a kit to put a check ball in the oil tank feed side oil line. You remove the check ball in the engine and install the kit per instructions. Just be sure to prime the oil line and pump. Rotary pumps do not pump air and by the time gravity gets oil to the pump your main bearings could be toast.

http://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/cat_details.php?p_head=Trident%20anti-drain%20valve

Also when changing your oil filter be sure to fill the oil filter cavity with oil before offering the cover. It takes the pump several seconds to fill the oil filter cavity and the mains are fed directly from the cavity. No oil in cavity no oil to mains!!!
HTH


Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383078
07/08/11 3:14 am
07/08/11 3:14 am
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Wet-sumping is when the oil does not return fast enough to the tank whilst running and fills the sump. The ant-drain valve is under the left side at the inner end of the pump. The problem is the seat and the worn out drill they used to connect to the pump outlet leaving a ragged hole. If your ball has any scratches or dents (from beating on it with a drift to "seat" the ball) then it has to be replaced.
The ball sits on the corner of the seat chamfer and the cross hole so any out of round or nicks in the hole will not let the ball seal.


I re-angle the seat with a chamfer tool so the ball sits only on the seat face using this:

which is mounted in the bolt hole like this:

to get the seat looking like this:

The anti-drain spring can be stiffer. It is on the outlet side of the pump so the pressure will have no problem pushing it off the seat.
The valve is not the only path through which oil can drain. There are the mating surfaces of the pump body and base gasket where oil will make its way to the primary past the drive spindle and the oil cartridge filter seal.
Leave the filter cap off and the primary drain plug out to see if either of these are culprits.

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: DMadigan] #383089
07/08/11 7:17 am
07/08/11 7:17 am
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Originally Posted By: DMadigan
Wet-sumping is when the oil does not return fast enough to the tank whilst running and fills the sump.



Yes, however, most people now understand "wetsumping" (or wet sumping) to be oil draining from the tank and filling the sump when the engine is not running.

Your anti-drain ball seating modification is a good idea but it doesn't prevent the oil draining to the sump from the oil pump.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 07/08/11 7:33 am.
Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383123
07/08/11 12:15 pm
07/08/11 12:15 pm
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lace remington Offline OP
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thanks for that lot, i will purchase an anti drain valve i think, but why should it only keep the oil in the tank for a few weeks as stated in the ad'?. not so good when your laying her up for the winter months..

Last edited by lace remington; 07/08/11 12:15 pm.
Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383130
07/08/11 12:32 pm
07/08/11 12:32 pm
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Originally Posted By: lace remington
why should it only keep the oil in the tank for a few weeks as stated in the ad'?. not so good when your laying her up for the winter months..


If you don't intend to use the bike over the winter months then what does it matter? It only takes a few minutes to drain off a reasonable amount of oil and put it back in the tank before starting the engine.

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: L.A.B.] #383131
07/08/11 12:39 pm
07/08/11 12:39 pm
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lace remington Offline OP
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yes your right , i will buy a new sump plate aswell, one with the drain plug in, just wondered why the new valve would slowly leak oil past it that's all..

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383156
07/08/11 2:43 pm
07/08/11 2:43 pm
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Originally Posted By: lace remington
yes your right , i will buy a new sump plate aswell, one with the drain plug in, just wondered why the new valve would slowly leak oil past it that's all..


I expect there's probably a fine line between a valve that will open reliably (as it has to be "sucked" open by the negative pressure on the pump side) and a valve that is guaranteed to seal 100%.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 07/08/11 2:44 pm.
Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383177
07/08/11 4:56 pm
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The valve could be made more reliable and seal better if it was vacuum controlled by the intake the same way the Japanese fuel tank valves are made. Several other ways to do it and have it reliably seal without relying solely on the oil pump suction.

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383305
07/09/11 10:41 am
07/09/11 10:41 am
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Quote:
I will purchase an anti drain valve I think, but why should it only keep the oil in the tank for a few weeks as stated in the ad'?.


Please ! Be very careful if you are going the way of fitting a anti=drain valve ~ Make sure you have 'primed ' the oil line on the engine side of the valve.

I don't trust them!

I fitted one to my Commando as the Nortons are infamous for wet sumping ~

When I fitted it and started up the thing did NOT oil up ~ (The Commandos don't have an oil light as standard - but the sound of the valve train gave it away and I shut it off very quickly ~ < 5 seconds >

Once I primed the engine side of the valve it was fine ~ but I have seen pictures of and heard of some real horror stories so I removed it and have learnt to deal with the wet sumping issue on the Commando ~

As for the Trident wet sumping ~ I like Dave's tool but I recut the ball seat on both my T160 and my T150V ~ with excellent results by lapping them in as you woud a inlet or exhaust valve .

While it is a real challenge to do while the engine is in frame, I advised a Tripler some time back about how I did it and he actually achieved the result while the engine was still insitu !

I was suitably impressed by his sheer tenacity in doing so !! bigt beerchug

Last edited by Stuart SS; 07/10/11 10:18 am.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383310
07/09/11 11:04 am
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The nearest to "safe" anti drain valve I've seen was opened and closed by hand. When closed, the extended handle of the valve interfered with the kickstart.

I wouldn't even chance that on a non self-priming pump.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: triton thrasher] #383326
07/09/11 12:34 pm
07/09/11 12:34 pm
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Originally Posted By: triton thrasher
The nearest to "safe" anti drain valve I've seen was opened and closed by hand. When closed, the extended handle of the valve interfered with the kickstart.


But that's not very safe on a T160 unless it also disabled the starter motor!

The only "safe" anti-drain valve in my opinion is one you don't fit.

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: L.A.B.] #383366
07/09/11 3:08 pm
07/09/11 3:08 pm
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Originally Posted By: L.A.B.


But that's not very safe on a T160 unless it also disabled the starter motor!


Pretty safe on some T160s then! Am I allowed to mention Boyer?


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Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: triton thrasher] #383372
07/09/11 3:24 pm
07/09/11 3:24 pm
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Originally Posted By: triton thrasher
Pretty safe on some T160s then! Am I allowed to mention Boyer?


You certainly can.

However, I think you will find that a large number of T160s are fitted with Tri-Sparks these days (including my own)!

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383398
07/09/11 7:16 pm
07/09/11 7:16 pm
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: lace remington
i will purchase an anti drain valve
Originally Posted By: lace remington
i will buy a new sump plate aswell, one with the drain plug in,

Far be it for me to suggest how you spend your money, or to do Phil out of a load of money, but that's a lot to spend treating just the symptoms - as opposed to the causes - of the oil draining from the tank to the sump? Surely you'd be better off either fixing the causes ('cos you're going to have to fix them at some stage) or spending a lot less on treating the symptoms, that also don't have the ability to turn your expensive T160 engine into expensive scrap?

Anti-drain valve. There has been regular debate over on TOL pretty much since this was introduced. On the one hand, people who know far more about rotary pumps than I do advise that it is unwise to ask such a type of pump to suck off such a a type of valve. Otoh, at least the LPW valves been around long enough that you can be pretty sure that either a lot don't go wrong ... or the LPW owners have the 'contacts' make complainers 'disappear'. whistle

Sump plate with drain plug. Main problem I have with this is all the ones I've seen don't incorporate any way of securing the drain plug, so the first you know it's dropped out is oil on the rear tyre throws you and the bike up the road, and/or the engine is the aforementioned expensive scrap. Think it's unlikely? Ask the guy who, about three or four years ago, held up the entire Beezumph for about an hour while all the marshalls cleaned oil off pretty much the entire racing line. Oh, and who owned what had been a functioning triple engine. frown

If you want to treat just the symptoms of the wet-sumping, here's a much cheaper way:-

. have made up a tank drain plug with a spigot that'll take a length of flexible oil pipe;

. have a length of flexible oil pipe long enough to reach from the spigot, up the frame tube behind the tank to under the seat;

. have a couple of Jubilee clips to fit the oil pipe, an old 5/16" bolt and a couple of releaseable cable ties;

. fit one end of the oil pipe to the spigot and secure it with a Jubilee clip;

. push the bolt into the other end of the oil pipe and secure it with the other Jubilee clip;

. run the flexible pipe along the aforementioned frame tube and secure with the releaseable cable ties.

Fill the oil tank as normal and use the bike. When you aren't going to use the bike for a few days or more, undo releaseable cable ties, undo Jubilee clip around bolt in pipe, remove bolt and direct pipe end into empty 5-litre can. When you want to use the bike again, reverse the above and either empty contents of aforementioned 5-litre can or new oil into oil tank. Use bike. bigt

Would you like some photos.? wink

Originally Posted By: lace remington
this doesn't appear to make any difference to the starting or running of the bike, and of course i wait until the oil re-appears in the tank before riding off,

Oh, yes, it does. smirk Unless you like paying for triple engine rebuilds (both bottom and top ends at least), it is very, very, very unwise to even just start one without enough oil in the tank to at least reach the bottom of the dipstick.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383457
07/10/11 1:25 am
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"Sump plate with drain plug. Main problem I have with this is all the ones I've seen don't incorporate any way of securing the drain plug"
I guess you have not seen mine. The sump plate has a drilled tab for the safety wire. The plug is actually the same as the inspection caps except with a rare earth magnet and a raised hex for safety wire.

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: Stuart] #383491
07/10/11 8:45 am
07/10/11 8:45 am
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Originally Posted By: Stuart
Sump plate with drain plug. Main problem I have with this is all the ones I've seen don't incorporate any way of securing the drain plug, so the first you know it's dropped out is oil on the rear tyre throws you and the bike up the road, and/or the engine is the aforementioned expensive scrap. Think it's unlikely? Ask the guy who, about three or four years ago, held up the entire Beezumph for about an hour while all the marshalls cleaned oil off pretty much the entire racing line. Oh, and who owned what had been a functioning triple engine.


Or, the drain plug falling out could just have been down to human error (unless you are going to own up to be the person who tightened it, Stuart-as that's the only way you could know for sure it had been tightened properly)?
I thought those sort of things were supposed to be lockwired for track use anyway (not that I've ever been to Beezumph) as the plug could be drilled for a locking wire easily enough?

However, I must admit my L P Williams sump plate drain plug washer was made of a rather hard material and it was also held captive on the plug by the plug thread so any attempt to remove the washer from the plug would destroy the washer, and any replacement washer I found that would fit over the threads was then a very loose fit under the head (so there is a considerable temptation to continually re-use the old washer).
I eventually fitted an 'undersized I/D' copper washer by cutting a 'thread' into it-so that it could be screwed past the plug threads and still be a reasonably tight fit under the hexagon.

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383499
07/10/11 10:25 am
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One concept I figured would work quite well as far as 'manually' opened and shut valve would be IMO an electrically operated valve.

After working on bus/ coach air onditioning I think an ignition activated valve would work quite well ~ Ignition on and off ~

But I simply opted to repair the standard OEM system ~


ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: DMadigan] #383502
07/10/11 10:50 am
07/10/11 10:50 am
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Hi Dave,

Originally Posted By: DMadigan
I guess you have not seen mine. The sump plate has a drilled tab for the safety wire.

I hadn't but, as always with your stuff, well thought out and fantastic-looking. bigt

Regards,

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: L.A.B.] #383506
07/10/11 11:18 am
07/10/11 11:18 am
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Hi Les,

Originally Posted By: L.A.B.
Or, the drain plug falling out could just have been down to human error

True but, if it isn't there, it can't fall out? wink If you fix the causes of the wet-sumping, d'you need a drain plug in the sump plate? If you drain the oil from the tank, d'you need a drain plug in the sump plate?

Originally Posted By: L.A.B.
unless you are going to own up to be the person who tightened it,

Not I. As I said, I wouldn't pay that much to fix just a symptom.

Originally Posted By: L.A.B.
I thought those sort of things were supposed to be lockwired for track use anyway (not that I've ever been to Beezumph)

For racing, yes. But Beezumph isn't racing ... triple owners just parade round slowly so spectators can appreciate the beauty of the bikes whistle ... so either it isn't necessary or it was missed by the scrutineer.

Originally Posted By: L.A.B.
the plug could be drilled for a locking wire easily enough?

True, but drilling a bolt head for lock wiring (and something else for the other end of the lockwire) is not 'easy' without certain facilities, particularly if the bolt is stainless. Then, having fitted the bolt, you'd have to be able to get lockwire pliers to it and the other bit (remembering most owners are now grovelling around on the garage floor), for which you'd have to take off a T160's centre exhaust pipes, so you've defeated the object of paying for a sump plate with a drain plug? If you're going to pay lots of money then grovel around on the garage floor under a triple engine, why not buy Dave's seat-cutting tool and fix the cause, as opposed to just a symptom? grin

Hth.

Regards,

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: Stuart] #383509
07/10/11 11:37 am
07/10/11 11:37 am
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Originally Posted By: Stuart
if it isn't there, it can't fall out?


You might be surprised to know that engines normally have an oil drain plug-and (surprisingly enough) they don't generally fall out as a rule (unless somebody doesn't tighten them properly?)!



Originally Posted By: Stuart
d'you need a drain plug in the sump plate? If you drain the oil from the tank, d'you need a drain plug in the sump plate?



Well...No, but it is nice to have the option!

[Edit]If the engine oil had been allowed to fully drain down, then I would normally drain the primary case with the bike on it's side stand (and put 350cc back in afterwards) as a good litre and a half of that oil will have overflowed into the primary case, and that's more than enough oil for a start up.



Originally Posted By: Stuart
Originally Posted By: L.A.B.
the plug could be drilled for a locking wire easily enough?


True, but drilling a bolt head for lock wiring (and something else for the other end of the lockwire) is not 'easy' without certain facilities, particularly if the bolt is stainless. Then, having fitted the bolt, you'd have to be able to get lockwire pliers to it and the other bit (remembering most owners are now grovelling around on the garage floor), for which you'd have to take off a T160's centre exhaust pipes, so you've defeated the object of paying for a sump plate with a drain plug?


Oh, Stuart, I say, you do have a knack for making a reasonably straightforward job sound difficult!
My T160 has a Hyde 3 into 1 exhaust so at least I don't have to drop any exhaust parts to remove either the sump plate or the plug, plus I've got a hydraulic bench so-no grovelling on the floor either!


Originally Posted By: Stuart
If you're going to pay lots of money then grovel around on the garage floor under a triple engine, why not buy Dave's seat-cutting tool and fix the cause, as opposed to just a symptom?


Thats assuming the seating is the cause? It may not be, as the oil could be leaking through the pump or from the pump gasket face?

Originally Posted By: Stuart
For racing, yes. But Beezumph isn't racing

Give over! I may not have actually been to Beezumph-but I've got the video!
Maybe nobody 'wins'-but it's as near to racing as makes no difference!

Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: Stuart SS] #383512
07/10/11 11:52 am
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Originally Posted By: Stuart SS
One concept I figured would work quite well as far as 'manually' opened and shut valve would be IMO an electrically operated valve.





That would work perfectly, until the time that it didn't.


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Re: t160 wet sumping [Re: lace remington] #383513
07/10/11 11:56 am
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I'd say sump plugs are accepted as reliable.

Although- removal and refitting very frequently brings in more risk of forgetting to tighten it up properly.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
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