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head gasket leaking #380838
06/25/11 8:37 pm
06/25/11 8:37 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 92
midwest
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babyz Offline OP
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midwest
Hi,
Head gasket leaking oil real bad, about 50 miles into break it. Rings have seated nicely, bike running good until I noticed small amount of oil at head gasket. Re-tourqed yesterday and now leaking real bad. Also misfiring upon acceleration. Will replace head gasket, any suggestions on head gasket to buy. The shop (Ace motorcycle and scooter in Chicago) who rebuilt the engine said something to me about a composite head gasket. Where can I get one? Any tips on the replacement process?
thanks


1972 TRIUMPH t120r
1973 BMW 75/5
2004 BMW R1150R
1963 LAMBRETTA LI125
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Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #380842
06/25/11 9:15 pm
06/25/11 9:15 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,204
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Offline

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Boston, Massachusetts
To my knowledge there is no composite head gasket available for the 650.

The stock copper head gasket works well, if annealed. Some of the chinese ones are not annealed when you buy them.

It is quite common for oil to leak oil down the 4 inner head bolts on this model.

It is also common for the 4 inner head bolts to loosen.

You can cure the oil leak with a small "O" ring and a modified head bolt washer. Also some of these used a small diameter head bolt washer under the 4 inner head bolts. It is wise to replace these with the washer used on the 4 outer head bolts 82-2184. You can modify these washers to hold an "O" ring.


Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #380845
06/25/11 9:33 pm
06/25/11 9:33 pm
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 572
Surrey UK
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Mattsta Offline
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Surrey UK
This might sound daft but I'd check you have the correct head gasket. Mine leaked badly and it transpired that I had been sold the wrong one


1952 Triumph T100 in a BSA A7 Frame
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #380847
06/25/11 9:37 pm
06/25/11 9:37 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 92
midwest
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babyz Offline OP
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I noticed oil inside of the inner bolts, wasn't sure what to think of it. One of the bolts was really loose. Should I get a new gasket or can I re-use the existing one and anneal it.
Will have to take a look at the book and see if I can make sense of what you are suggesting, not really understanding how to do this.
Leaking oil real bad, where does the oil go if it is leaking from the inner bolt? Through the head gasket or up into the rockerboxes? Also seams like those push rod seals are leaking now too.
Could this be why the bike is misfiring during acceleration? Or should I check the points/timing? It just came from the shop, but I don't want to take it back to them for a couple reasons, now I really question the quality of their work, but that's another story.


1972 TRIUMPH t120r
1973 BMW 75/5
2004 BMW R1150R
1963 LAMBRETTA LI125
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #380853
06/25/11 10:26 pm
06/25/11 10:26 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,835
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.
If your not sure of your gasket buy a new one, click on the sponsors in the site link box. Our sponsors usually know more about what you want and need then you do. It will still need to be annealed to work. A gas BBQ works well. A real shop manual,not Haynes not Clymer, has the procedure. If you do not have a manual, you might as well spring for it, you are going to need it.
Get the correct size head washers and check the cylinder and head for flat.
Spraying a real soft head gasket with Permatex Copper Spray Coat will cure a multitude of sins.
There is a ring cut around each bore in the cylinder, make sure they are clean.
Learn to do the easy stuff yourself, Most experts don't know crap about Triumphs.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #380913
06/26/11 9:28 am
06/26/11 9:28 am
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
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Tiger  Offline
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Melbourne Australia
Apart from your PRT [push rod tube] leaks those inner head bolts will bleed oil down which appears between cyl and head.

Copper rockerbox gaskets work well for me but need a thin coat of silicone to seal, I tried stuff like Permatex spray gasket on them but the exh side gets too hot, silicone reqd.

Good idea on the T-140 also although sealing as described by John Healey is applicable for that version of the engine.

Sealing your PRTs is doable, I do not use gasket kit upper seals but prefer Viton "o" rings, various sections and diameters are available at small cost.

When you consider that [within limits] if you stretch a smaller dia over the PRT the section decreases it is not hard to find the desired .030" to .040" "crush" required.

Being an elastomer you have both metric and imperial rings to choose from, Viton is great under hot service conditions like [particularly] the top of the exh PRT.

Desco speaks wisely re folks capable of doing good work on these old engines.

Last edited by Tiger; 06/26/11 9:30 am.

1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #380937
06/26/11 1:49 pm
06/26/11 1:49 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,457
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Originally Posted By: babyz

Leaking oil real bad, where does the oil go if it is leaking from the inner bolt? Through the head gasket or up into the rockerboxes?


bz -

If you look in the workshop manual there is a nice illustration that shows you the flow of oil through the engine...

The oil is leaking DOWN from the rockerboxes. It is getting under the four inner head bolts (or socket nut/stud) and washers and wicking its way to the head gasket. At that point it either goes A) out the gasket to the fins or B) in the gasket into the combustion chambers. The remedy is to use a properly annealed head gasket and washer modification already stated above. (The washer modification, if done properly, will prevent the inner head bolts from loosening again and make the inner head bolts oil-tight).

As for your push rod leak(s)(there is zero oil pressure there), is the leak coming from the base of the exhaust push rod tube? If it is, you probably have a bad tappet guide block O-ring as the oil is under pressure there...

If not, you need to check your PRT seals for proper 'crush' when reassembling the head and THAT is a whole other thread!

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #380943
06/26/11 2:11 pm
06/26/11 2:11 pm
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
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Good point re exh tappet block JP, one assumes too much by assuming that the tappet block "O" rings would have been replaced whilst the cylinders were off.

PRT joints see almost nil oil pressure [some small crankcase compression] but are prone to leakage, the factory varied design several times over the yrs to combat this.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #380950
06/26/11 2:51 pm
06/26/11 2:51 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 92
midwest
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babyz Offline OP
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believe me, i know about the crush for the push rod tube.....there is soo much oil leaking that it just appears to be from the PRT. I will order all the gaskets I need and attempt to do the job this week. thanks for all the input and i will need some good luck.

oh , the misfiring is electrical, my battery is knackered, other than that the bike runs great smile


1972 TRIUMPH t120r
1973 BMW 75/5
2004 BMW R1150R
1963 LAMBRETTA LI125
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #380951
06/26/11 2:53 pm
06/26/11 2:53 pm
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Posts: 92
midwest
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babyz Offline OP
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i had the exhaust tappet block o ring replaced during 1st rebuilt. it was pressed out, o ring replaced and set back in.


1972 TRIUMPH t120r
1973 BMW 75/5
2004 BMW R1150R
1963 LAMBRETTA LI125
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #381051
06/27/11 2:15 am
06/27/11 2:15 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,265
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
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North Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: babyz
believe me, i know about the crush for the push rod tube.....there is soo much oil leaking that it just appears to be from the PRT.


Appearances can be deceiving. But the fact is that the only place that much oil can come from is the ex tappet block o-ring. So it's time to replace the o-ring again.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #381259
06/28/11 12:38 am
06/28/11 12:38 am
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 92
midwest
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babyz Offline OP
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midwest
The oil leak was not too bad, it got much worse after re-tourqing the head, and apppears to be coming from the the left, intake side more than anyplace else. The ex tappet block O-ring was replaced, there has been less than 100 miles put in this bike since than, I can't imagine it could go bad that quickly.


1972 TRIUMPH t120r
1973 BMW 75/5
2004 BMW R1150R
1963 LAMBRETTA LI125
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #381272
06/28/11 1:14 am
06/28/11 1:14 am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,835
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.
Perhaps I have been hardened by some some of the thieving, scumbag mechanics here in California but did you watch the "O" ring being replaced or is just on the work order?
I paid to have my 72 rebuilt twice in one month. Neither time was the problem fixed and neither time was there any warranty as "this is an old engine".
When I paid to have the 68 rebuilt the "mechanic" failed to notice the cams were flat on the timing side than installed the head in such a way as to bend it.
Beware the experts.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: motorcycle workshops [Re: desco] #381831
07/01/11 8:39 am
07/01/11 8:39 am
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 871
QLD, Australia
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RetroRod Offline
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QLD, Australia
I have to agree with Desco about the questionable honesty of some repairers, and that it is not limited to motorcycles.

Stripping down the '72 T120, there were many instances where the PO had requested certain replacements, and was charged for them, (he provided me with the receipts) but clearly these items had not been installed.

I would always ask for the replaced parts (on the day of collection, and without notice). This is no guarantee of anything, but might be helpful, by judging the repairers response, if the repairer is kosher.

Old engine or not, if the guy specialises in repairing this type of engine he should happily provide a reasonable guarantee as he would on any engine he works on. Saying he offers no guarantee says everything about the confidence he has in his own work. RR


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #381892
07/01/11 4:49 pm
07/01/11 4:49 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 254
Stow, MA
Pete J 77T140 Offline
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Stow, MA
Hey,

To quote Mr. Healy:

"You can cure the oil leak with a small "O" ring and a modified head bolt washer. Also some of these used a small diameter head bolt washer under the 4 inner head bolts. It is wise to replace these with the washer used on the 4 outer head bolts 82-2184. You can modify these washers to hold an "O" ring."

Is the washer modification to accept an O ring modification explained anywhere else here? I've got the larger outside head bolt washers in place but no O rings. And I've got a bit of seepage I can't get rid of as well. A picture of the O ring washer would be great!

Cheers and Happy 4rth!

Pete

Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #381941
07/01/11 9:58 pm
07/01/11 9:58 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 92
midwest
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babyz Offline OP
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midwest
very long story on this VERY frustrating bike. Here's a short version of it's history:
-purchased on Craigslist Jan of 2007, pistons stuck, rough shape
-got it running that night, began disassembly for top end rebuild
-cleaned up and got running w re-built head, new bore, pistons and rings
-ran for about 50 miles, blowing oil in both cylinders
-brought to reputable Chicago mechanic (Brit bike expert, known by many here i.e big city, lots of Brit bikes)
-evaluated engine and determined sludge trap was blocked causing low end starvation, I agree to total re-build.

one year later!

-bike done, picked up from above mentioned mechanic, 50 miles, oil blowing badly, fouled plugs etc...brought back to shop
-he says sludge trap was not cleaned, 2nd rebiuld

one year later!

-picked up bike last fall, sat in my basement over winter, started it up this past spring, ran good, rings set in, worked out a bunch of other stuff and seeming like I finally have a nice starting point at a re-built engine.
-head gasket started to leak.
-brought it back in my van
-sat in his shop for two weeks with no attention at all
-picked it up and oil leaking like mad through the head gasket

I refuse to take it back there and either going to fix myself or take to another, very reputable shop in Richmond, IL, have them fix it and work out the $$$ w the other shop.

frustrated. can't ride it, can't sell it (for what I need to get)

If I bring it bake to him I will not see it for another 6 months.

good thing I have two Beemers that run and run and run and run and run : )

I paid a lot of money and wanted to do this bike right.


1972 TRIUMPH t120r
1973 BMW 75/5
2004 BMW R1150R
1963 LAMBRETTA LI125
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #381943
07/01/11 10:05 pm
07/01/11 10:05 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 92
midwest
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babyz Offline OP
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midwest
did you watch the "O" ring being replaced or is just on the work order?

I brought the jugs to another very reputable vintage bike mechaninc here in Chicago, solo shop, very good. I watched him press it out and replace it as I stood there. I doubt it's leaking from there, and if it is? well than this is how this bike will always be, me ALWAYS fixing it. Although I like to wrench, I like to ride more. I'm at the point where I just don't give a damn anymore, I have other more important things to tend to. Going to try to fix this oil problem and if it appears that there is much more work that needs to be done to this engine, well I'm parting it out on eBay and will try to re-coup my money, but i hope it doesn't come to that.


1972 TRIUMPH t120r
1973 BMW 75/5
2004 BMW R1150R
1963 LAMBRETTA LI125
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #381956
07/01/11 11:36 pm
07/01/11 11:36 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,835
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.
It took me 4 or 5 YEARS to get my 72 running right and I quit saving receipts when I crossed the $10,000 mark. I had one mechanic who fixed the leaking gear box by draining the oil out of it. I now know how long it takes for a gear box to seize up, about nine months. That was about 20 years ago and I eventually rebuilt, repaired or fixed every thing by myself with true expert advice from Keith Moore at Moore's Cycle in Anaheim,Ca. Try getting any advice from E-bay. I still deal with Keith but mostly it's just calls to say hello.
Did I mention, the guy I bought it from, swore he had replaced every nut, bolt and gasket. BS.
Now I change the oil if I think of it and air up the tires occasionally. After a ride up some winding canyon on the 72 I want to spit on my beautiful 68.
After a certain number of dollars you have to either keep on going or eat the loss. It's your call. I kind of got addicted to the challenge.
P S Who is recommending these F-ing idiots?

Last edited by desco; 07/01/11 11:40 pm. Reason: addition

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #381958
07/02/11 12:00 am
07/02/11 12:00 am
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,962
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
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btour Offline
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Hi babyz,

I can feel your frustration and anger. Lets see if I am hearing your correctly

Originally Posted By: babyz

-brought to reputable Chicago mechanic (Brit bike expert, known by many here i.e big city, lots of Brit bikes)
-evaluated engine and determined sludge trap was blocked causing low end starvation, I agree to total re-build.

one year later!

-bike done, picked up from above mentioned mechanic, 50 miles, oil blowing badly, fouled plugs etc...brought back to shop
-he says sludge trap was not cleaned, 2nd rebiuld


The guy assessed that the sludge trap needed cleaning. You left it with him to do the job. Then later he said the trap was not cleaned?

If that is correct, has he no shame?

Unfortunately in the Triumph world, some of these mechanics think they are Gods. You will be fortunate if the original parts are still there. Some of these guys know what is hard to get, and they strip the bike of them and leave poor after market parts in their place.

If I lived close to you I would go give him a proper chewing out.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #381961
07/02/11 12:34 am
07/02/11 12:34 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,649
Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
DPO Offline
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Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
Hey babyz...believe me, I feel your pain buddy...I too "acquired" a 72 T120R 5 speed from a Dominoes Pizza delivery man, who spied it sitting in the woods. I gave him $200 for it, "as is", and believe me, you could hardly tell what the heck it even was...Im a LONG time mechanic, specializing in aircraft, cars, boats, RC aircraft, lawnmowers, and just about anything with an engine, and figured, "How hard can it be?".. I have learned quite possibly, EVERY lesson to be learned, as everyone here can testify to...Started it up, as it had a spark, and what I THOUGHT was oil pressure, and it ran for about 12 minutes and locked up. Destroyed right connecting rod, broke right cylinder skirt, and required total overhaul. Luckily I was working a part time job at the time, and was able to shove money at it, albeit, still not in a smart way. I was still in the HHCIB mode, and skimped on areas I thought were insignificant. I went thru the cylinder / piston relationship, which entailed my family coming to pick me up on the side of the highway (Daddy just HAD to have a motorcycle), cylinder on, cylinder off, cylinder on, cylinder off. Then the push rod tube ordeal, which took several heart wrenching episodes of drama, to the point of giving up several times. I also had transmission parts all over the garage, spoking wheels, buying cheap tires, AMAL issues, and oil leaks that still exist. Im in the bike about 3 1/2 years now, and approaching $4000 total, and of all the bikes I have now, and have had in the past, I love this one the most....I ride it the most also, as it is by far the funnest to ride. I've accumulated probably 2000 miles since the rebuild now, and I'll tell ya from personal experience that the bike runs better the more you ride it. It responds well to the maintenance I give it, and rewards me far more than money can buy. Unfortunately I've lost my part time job, and my fun money has all but dried up, so there's things I still, and will always need for it seems like. (Ask Semper Gumby!!) Unfortunately again, wrenching on it and riding it HAS to go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other.
My point is if you like wrenching on the bike (a must), keep at it, as it WILL eventually pay off in BIG dividends. I would'nt hesitate for a minute to ride my bike anywhere now that I know it's personality and the confidence I have in it, so hang in there, take your time, do it yourself if you can, and do it right the FIRST time.....Hang in there brother, been where you are...


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #383065
07/08/11 1:14 am
07/08/11 1:14 am
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 92
midwest
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babyz Offline OP
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midwest
now I'm a bit confused.
-removed the head and the entire surface of the head gasket had oil on it.
-the valves had burned oil deposits
-is oil supposed to spurt up through the push rod tubes when you kick the bike? more at exhaust than at intake.
-removed the cylinder head to inspect the rings, oil in at the base gasket.

where is all this oil coming from?
oil at the end of the tailpipe too.

where should I turn to now? how can you test the exhaust tappet for leaking? seems ridiculous to press that out again and replace it, how could it be bad? it's brand new?

also, my head is scratched/gouged at the under side where it is supposed to be flat. I paid $500 3 years ago to have the head re-built and I suspect the shop I brought it to damaged it. it was flat when I gave it to them!!!
this is the 5th time the engine is apart in three years with under 100 miles on it.


1972 TRIUMPH t120r
1973 BMW 75/5
2004 BMW R1150R
1963 LAMBRETTA LI125
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #383071
07/08/11 2:17 am
07/08/11 2:17 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,457
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted By: babyz
now I'm a bit confused.
-is oil supposed to spurt up through the push rod tubes when you kick the bike? more at exhaust than at intake.

where is all this oil coming from?


bz -

No disrespect to you, but you need to re-read the replies I and others gave have given you already. You're beginning to repeat yourself....

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #383077
07/08/11 3:07 am
07/08/11 3:07 am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,835
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.
It takes three things to own an old Triumph. Time,money and mechanical aptitude. If you are lacking in any one area you better have gobs of the other two. It sounds as if you are sadly deficient in at least two areas and also lack the ability to take sound advice, freely given. As to your caustic reply on another thread, I'm sure 99.9% of the members on this forum have a good running Triumph. Some have many.
Your anus must very sore from the number of screwings you have have received. Perhaps that explains your vile disposition.

Last edited by desco; 07/08/11 5:43 am. Reason: clarity

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #383082
07/08/11 4:36 am
07/08/11 4:36 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,114
Noblesville, IN
Jack Adams Offline
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Noblesville, IN
Babyz,It sounds to me like you have a drive-side crank seal installed.

Re: head gasket leaking [Re: babyz] #383095
07/08/11 8:36 am
07/08/11 8:36 am
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,962
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
B
btour Offline
BritBike Forum member
btour  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,962
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
I think I must have missed something. It just does not make sense. Something happen somewhere else?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
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