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#382799 - 07/06/11 5:20 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: RetroRod]
triton thrasher Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/07/01
Posts: 4413
Loc: scotland
Originally Posted By: RetroRod


You are a stirring little snake in the grass Bob, and its high time you pulled your head in. Like your avatar, you're a clown, and a first class one at that.


It can be a big mistake to only accept advice from people you like, especially in this context.
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#382830 - 07/06/11 9:10 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: Bob G]
Steve Christie Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 14
Loc: UK
Outraged by your negative comments about Plewsey (Lunmad) videos. Triumph motorcycles are not an exact science!!!! ....Triumph's are crude engineering compared to todays modern machines. Lunmad's excellent video's help the working man keep his bike on the road. Do you think that my Granfather and Father had experts on hand when their Triumph's broke down? They just got on and fixed it with whatever they had to hand. You are right to point out the expertise on this excellent forum but get your head out from their arses because they aint demi-gods.
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#382893 - 07/07/11 4:27 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: Steve Christie]
Bob G Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 445
Loc: redondo beach, ca
Here is the problem with doing things the good old way like we did back in the 50's and 60's.
For most of us, these bikes are no longer our basic transportation that we have to keep running come Hell or highwater. There are now expensive collectible treasures that we have invested our valuable time, money and hearts in.
Costs have also changed dramatically. A very nice Bonneville will bring over $10,000. Parts and Labor prices have increased accordingly.
Many parts that are not available repop are getting quite scarce, like cranks, heads and cases.
The quality of many repop parts are questionable and are often not as good as the originals.
You are dealing with very old metal which has become worn, deformed, broken,cracked, weakened, etc.
Gasoline is now crap and a Triumph engine that was built for "1960s Tiger in Tank super duper premium" will hand grenade on the new millinium corn juice unless precautions are taken during a rebuild and tuning.
There is now wonderful modern machine technology available that can actually improve over the original Triumph factory build, especially in the cylinder head. Many mechanics like me have expensive precision hand valve cutting equipment which we no longer use, simply because the new stuff blows it away.
As a side note: grinding valves with paste after installing new guides has never been a valid technique even back in the early 50s. It is not old school, it is not a crude or marginal technique, it is simply wrong,wrong wrong. IMHO anyone who would do such a thing is lacking the basic knowledge to perform internal engine work on his own engine. Anyone who would show it in a "How to Video" is (censored). Maybe I am old fashioned, but I feel that someone who dons the mantle of teacher or instructor and publishs "how to" videos has a responsibility to his viewers to present useful and correct information.
To be clear, I am apologizing for the smart ass way that I expressed myself, not for pointing out that Lunmad is an engine rebuild disaster.
Believing you can even halfway successfully rebuild a Triumph engine at home using basic garage tools and simple techniques is wishful fantasy . IMHO, They are 10 times harder to get right then a modern Japanese engine rebuild. Don't take my word for it, just take the time to read past Brit Bike posts about engine disasters and near disasters(mine included).
That being said, I am anxiously awaiting "How to Rebuild your Triumph Lower End Part 8" when he goes for the sludge trap and ------



Edited by Bob G (07/07/11 5:37 am)
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Bob Gregor

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#382923 - 07/07/11 12:17 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
dave jones Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 3125
Loc: Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
I have read this thread with interest and can see that Bob G was only disagreeing with some of the video chap's techniques rather than personally attacking him as a human being.

There are bikes that have been worked on at home and others that have had pro work and they blow up or seize in equal numbers judging by the posts on this site. "I have had a 2000 bore job, new pistons and head work and followed the running in technique recommended on this site of riding at full throttle in first gear off a cliff...", etc

Dave


Edited by dave jones (07/07/11 5:33 pm)

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#382985 - 07/07/11 6:14 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: Bob G]
Bola Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/09/10
Posts: 336
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bob G
As a side note: grinding valves with paste after installing new guides has never been a valid technique even back in the early 50s. It is not old school, it is not a crude or marginal technique, it is simply wrong,wrong wrong. IMHO anyone who would do such a thing is lacking the basic knowledge to perform internal engine work on his own engine. Anyone who would show it in a "How to Video" is (censored). Maybe I am old fashioned, but I feel that someone who dons the mantle of teacher or instructor and publishes "how to" videos has a responsibility to his viewers to present useful and correct information.


I believe Bob G has suffered a fair critique for being off-handed, and I don't wish to flog a dead horse... but... I would like to ask you Bob... What do you think of Hughie Hancox? This is person who has made a living producing professional videos as a Triumph specialist. Not only is he well respected as a builder, he also worked in the Triumph factory back in the day. I think he knows a little bit about the inside of a Triumph engine. Are you aware that in his video "Triumph Unit 650" that he uses grinding paste to seat the valves.

With all due respect to you... this is not meant to be a "gotcha moment", but simply an attempt to bring to light once again that there are MANY ways to skin a cat.

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#383067 - 07/08/11 1:30 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
babyz Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 92
Loc: midwest
Did you notice Lunmad's bike runs? How many on this forum do?

I just got done tearing mine down for the 5th time in 3 years after giving Ace Motorcycle and Scooter in Chicago almost $3,000 to do a complete rebuild of my engine (and three years time).
I had it returned to me with oil leaking from the head gasket and base gasket, burning oil and missing essential bolts and small parts (yes, YOU should put the air filter back in and NOT me the customer!!!! oh wait, you lost them....)

I would bet $1,000 Lunmad could fix my bike in a weekend and I would actually be able to ride it.

Did I mention his bike runs?
http://www.youtube.com/user/lunmad#p/u/19/FA9IxzKn2Yc
_________________________
1972 TRIUMPH t120r
1973 BMW 75/5
2004 BMW R1150R
1963 LAMBRETTA LI125

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#383080 - 07/08/11 3:37 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
Bob G Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 445
Loc: redondo beach, ca
I haven't seen the Hancock video, but I find that very interesting. Did he use grinding paste after installing new quides or installing new valves in the original guides?

Too be honest, I have never tried it or read in any manual or publication that it works, so I am open to correction. I have screwed up a few Triumph heads using cutters back in the good old days, so I figured it would be even easier to make a mess using only grinding compound.
I suspect you might be able to get away with it if you had very well centered tight guides, new valves,an experienced hand, 1960s gasoline and lacked "modern expectations" on service life.
It just seems like false economy, when you can get a precision valve job done on $50,000 plus computerized equipment for $25 to $40 per hole. A modest night on the town costs more then a decent head job.
I hear your pain on paying the big bucks for marginal shop rebuilds, but that somewhat puts my point across. If experienced mechanics with the right tools and access to professional machining can't always get it right, what chance does a casual home mechanic lacking these advantages have?


Edited by Bob G (07/08/11 3:39 am)
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#383084 - 07/08/11 5:54 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
Redmoggy Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 1062
Loc: South Island

Bob, for what it's worth you have my sympathy. These engines seem to withstand a great deal of abuse, be that on the road or in the way they are maintained. You will never convince many people that you cant fix anything old with a hammer and chisel and i for one (after 20 years in the motor trade) have given up.

All the best
Rod
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#383086 - 07/08/11 6:54 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
triton thrasher Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/07/01
Posts: 4413
Loc: scotland
People did used to have a lot of faith in valve grinding paste. There's still a place for it, but if you give the valve a few twiddles and and are still not getting a good grey ring round the seat, then be prepared to give up promptly.
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#383087 - 07/08/11 6:55 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
triton thrasher Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/07/01
Posts: 4413
Loc: scotland
We're not baby-kissing politicians. If Bob doesn't like something, why shouldn't he say so plainly?
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#383096 - 07/08/11 8:49 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: triton thrasher]
RetroRod Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 701
Loc: QLD, Australia


Dear Britbike brothers.

The reason I stuck it into Bob has nothing to do with his criticism of Plewsy technical skill/s, after all I've disagreed with the man myself here and there.

Bob was a poster on a previous thread that turned ugly when he, and few others sought, to shit on the TriumphRat forum from a very great height. Given the recency of this matter, he therfore should have known that his comments on this occasion would hit a raw nerve with members there and he could have very easily posted his comments without the dramatic language he chose to use (eg "A word of warning...you need a strong stomach to view it..")

That is why it got personal,and unless Bob is a complete dill, he clearly could have forseen the outcome of his comments and modified his language accordingly.

Yes, I've jumped to Plewsy's defence as consider him a brother in arms (so to speak) and no more or less that I'd expect many of you to react if I did as Bob has done). And by the way, I'd defend many of you in an instant, if I found someone at TriumphRat giving you an unfair reputation) Poor old Richard did not find many some members over there very understanding. I am on record of attempting make them understand that whilst Richard's delivery can grate occasionally, there would be nothing in it personally.

If I were taking a 10,000 mile jouney on an old britbike, Plewsey is the guy I would want to take along. He's inventive and can get things done. As someone has said, you'll find that Plewsy's bike (and everyday rider since the seventies) has been kept in good running order for 30 odd years. How many of us can say that? And does that qualify him to give advice. I personally think so. RR
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"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel

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#383109 - 07/08/11 11:19 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
triton thrasher Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/07/01
Posts: 4413
Loc: scotland
So it's something to do with another thread about another forum.
_________________________
Amateur Loctite enthusiast.

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#383204 - 07/08/11 8:01 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: dave jones]
Andy Zarse Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 57
Loc: third floor
Originally Posted By: dave jones
I have read this thread with interest and can see that Bob G was only disagreeing with some of the video chap's techniques rather than personally attacking him as a human being.

There are bikes that have been worked on at home and others that have had pro work and they blow up or seize in equal numbers judging by the posts on this site. "I have had a 2000 bore job, new pistons and head work and followed the running in technique recommended on this site of riding at full throttle in first gear off a cliff...", etc

Dave


This!

On the other hand, the one inexcusable thing about Lunmad which drives me bonkers is the state of his working environment. He's a "hacker" like many of us, and although he has a degree of knowledge is there really any excuse for working on a carb when the bench is covered in crap and grit?

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#383251 - 07/09/11 12:14 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: Andy Zarse]
JubeePrince Offline
Life member

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 6049
Loc: Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted By: andy zarse
He's a "hacker" like many of us, and although he has a degree of knowledge....


Sounds like me! Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.... laugh

Steve
_________________________
'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...

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#383277 - 07/09/11 2:39 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: JubeePrince]
Bob G Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 445
Loc: redondo beach, ca
Actually it did start at the beginning of this string. My first posts at the beginning of this string were a bit too sarcastic and not at all in good taste, but thats just me.

Retrod, I have never criticized the other forum, anywhere, anytime and am in fact very active on it. I try to help struggling Triumph owners on it in return for all the generous help I have received on this forum.

I am well aware that using paste for a light clean up on existing components is low tech and old school and sometimes works for a few miles, but you probably aren't going to do too much harm to an already screwed up valve and seat. No harm, no foul.
My technical problem was with brand new guides in a sandpapered OD hole with sandpapered ID reaming and then reseating with new valves using only paste. While you might get away with it, your odds of engine disaster have now greatly multiplied.
My social problem with this, is that due to his large amount of unexperienced viewers, his engine rebuilding techniques are being recommended to others as acceptable home rememdies. Just like someone recommended him at the beginning of this string.

Currently, there is a struggling Trident owner on the other forum who has his head off his bike because of oil fouling. A reader directed him to the Lunmad video with a glowing recommendation.
The poor guy just got in his coarse and fine valve grinding compounds and blue goo and is hot to trot. Hopefully my intervention is in time and is heeded. If not you can watch the trainwreck in slow motion at http://www.triumphrat.net/classic-vintage-and-veteran/178243-major-set-back-i-hope-not-6.html
From what I can see in his photos it looks like the valve faces are concaved
and the 45 seat cut deeply pitted. The 45 also appears to be a bit too wide, maybe from an earlier job. My guess is that his head is a candidate for a complete new valve/guide job.
I would certainly not look forward to tearing a Trident down a second time (or a first time for that matter).


Edited by Bob G (07/09/11 3:16 am)
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#383278 - 07/09/11 2:41 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: JubeePrince]
RetroRod Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 701
Loc: QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: JubeePrince


Sounds like me! Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.... laugh

Steve


Amen brother! What's a tidy workshop look like? RR
_________________________
'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel

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#383289 - 07/09/11 5:48 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: Bob G]
RetroRod Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 701
Loc: QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: Bob G
Actually it did start at the beginning of this string. My first posts at the beginning of this string were a bit too sarcastic and not at all in good taste, but thats just me.

Retrod, I have never criticized the other forum, anywhere, anytime and am in fact very active on it. I try to help struggling Triumph owners on it in return for all the generous help I have received on this forum.



Thank you Bob for the acknowledgement, watchers will be grateful also no doubt. Nothing really personal in my comments, other than garbbing your attention and passing on to you the level of feeling that was running through the guys at TriumphRat.

Your help is always welcomed and appreciated. RR
_________________________
'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel

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#383291 - 07/09/11 6:00 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: Bob G]
RetroRod Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 701
Loc: QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: Bob G

The poor guy just got in his coarse and fine valve grinding compounds and blue goo and is hot to trot. Hopefully my intervention is in time and is heeded. If not you can watch the trainwreck in slow motion at http://www.triumphrat.net/classic-vintage-and-veteran/178243-major-set-back-i-hope-not-6.html


Hi Bob,

Please explain the problem Triumph owners have with lapping the valve for seal. Perhaps it's my turn to learn something here as I have used this traditional method on my old tart.

This young fella is keen. His dad had been his mentor and it's clear from earlier posts neither are very experienced. He is not prepared to wait until Dad can help again and so he's into it.

In some ways his enthusiasm is a bit like DPO, who was prepared to have a go, despite some skill/experience shortcomings. I just hope he does get good advice and can go on to claim he did the job himself.

Fortunately there are one or two guys over there that own/maintain T150's and they should be able to steer him in the right direction. The rest is up to him. RR


Edited by RetroRod (07/09/11 6:02 am)
_________________________
'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel

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#383327 - 07/09/11 12:44 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
dave jones Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 3125
Loc: Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
When these bikes were made the original manual gave instructions for repairs. These instructions included banging the guides in and out, cutting the seats and then grinding in the valves. Triumph sold the drift for this job or another tool that draws the guide into or out of the head. If the owner did this carefully then the bikes went for multiple thousands of miles.

A 650 triumph engine will go well (not top performance) with marginal valves and guides. A chap in a posh head shop told me that my exhaust guides were too thin after trying to clean them up and would burn out in a very short time. Being fairly experienced myself I ignored him and put them back in and have done over 20,000 miles on them and they are still going well! I ride at a constant 60- 70mph with bursts over 80mph for overtaking. I have done 90mph with more to go. I know I don't weigh much but it accelerates really well, too. The original valves were of good quality and maybe the replacements wouldn't last like this. Petrol is good in the UK , too.

HOWEVER, If you are unsure of the quality of your valves, etc, I would recommend to anyone on this site to have guides replaced and a proper valve job done by a really good shop like SRM. You can have the original guides lined if you don't want them removed and cut the seats or replace them with no need for grinding paste. They will also supply good quality valves. A really good job increases the power output noticeably if your head had pocketed valves from hundreds of regrinds! This is what I will do next time. If you dismantle the engine yourself you are already saving a lot of labour costs. The straight forward dismantling and assembly of an engine is quite a pleasant hobby! Leave the other stuff to someone else.

Dave

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#383349 - 07/09/11 2:26 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: dave jones]
Bob G Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 445
Loc: redondo beach, ca
Hi Retro, what I was trying to get across regarding the use of paste is that it's use is very limited.
I used to do hand valve jobs and used the paste only after the seat was cut to get a final seal. I still have my Triumph guide installing tool. Like Dave just mentioned in the old Triumph manuals that showed how to install guides, they used the Z54 tool with different angle cutting heads. You had to lap using compound to get a good final seal.
The popular later valve cutting tools even eliminated the need for final lapping by using a one degree interference difference between the valve and seat cut.
Eliminating the seat cutting process after guide installation like shown in the video is the problem. New guides seldom go in at exactly the same angle as the old ones due to different factors. IMHO, you really can't expect to reestablish any kind of servicable seat just by using compound after installing new guides.

To be honest I have never tried to do it, but I have seen how far off new cuts are off from the original ones when I take a first swipe with the 45 degree cutter. If you stop the process after only making a 45 degree seat and no relief cuts, you have most likely transformed a factory 3 angle valve job into a 1 angle valve job at least on some parts of the seat. You have just made a crude engine even cruder. Trying to establish a new seat using only compound would be about the same, only not nearly as good. When you are cutting, you have a pilot securly anchored in the guide. When you are lapping you now have the valve stem to guide clearance introducing play.

Regarding the Trident. Sure, under certain conditions when guides have not been changed, you can do a light cleanup with compound and get a few more miles. His concern is the bike is getting oil into the combustion chamber and fouling plugs. Just lapping the valves and reassembling the top end won't take care of that problem.


Edited by Bob G (07/09/11 3:37 pm)
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#383353 - 07/09/11 2:33 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
Kevin650 Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 9
Loc: Maryland, USA
As an acknowledged novice and another new/old owner, I will readily admit many on this forum and the other have more knowledge in a tenth of their brains than I may ever have, when related to my Triumphs. I will say however, that watching the Lunmad/Plewsy videos along with some professionally done ones, I have gained the courage to do some things I never would have before. Taking off heads and the cylinders, anealing gaskets, replacing gaskets and putting it all back together, I made a non-runner, run again. He has made me realize, that these bikes are not that complicated and not to be feared. That being said, I have my two bikes in two different shops right now for work, I knew I could not handle. For improvisational work, and for the basic maintenance and minor reparis, I would go again and again to Lunmad videos. I guess people (myself included), got riled up because Plewsey seems like such a nice guy and we generally defend nice guys. I think the posts came off as the snobs versus the slobs. I would bet that unless folks don't mind offending others, that if Bob and Plewsy were to meet for a pint, they would find much common ground. I would bet both of them might learn a thing or two. Just a thought, not a sermon.

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#383373 - 07/09/11 3:30 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
Bob G Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 445
Loc: redondo beach, ca
Kevin, you are 100% right about the videos being very good for "improvisational work, basic maintenance and minor repairs".
But that was not the argument,it was when he got into engine rebuilding.
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#383394 - 07/09/11 6:58 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
6T Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 339
Loc: back down the 'smoke',England
...motobobG,I understand that,all things being equal,we'd all love to send our heads off to get a complete job done but its not that easy.My brother sent his head off to our UK specialist(?)in 2000 & it cost him 300(he didn't ask for the extra work but the guy did it & charged him!Helicoils etc;) I know your a triumph mechanic,with access to the all the latest high tech,but for a bike thats just for sunday riding,I'll just struggle on grinding in my valves every couple of years.... toodle pip!


Edited by 6T (07/09/11 6:59 pm)
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BMW R1100rt
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#383418 - 07/09/11 9:13 pm Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: babyz]
Tiger Dale Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 275
Loc: Waldorf, Maryland
Gentlemen,

I eagerly look to all expert advice wherever available. I worked along side a mechanical engineer/factory BSA racer, national number 63 as I recall in the '70s. Learned alot about these old tarts.

The difference here IMHO is effective versus efficient. What I love about Plewsey is his innovation. Kinda like getting a great Chinese dinner at a roadside shack.

We must remember that these tarts are 1930's engineering. Of course they can be fine tuned and re-fined. We used to sit for hours changing timing gears to get perfect factory cam timing, balancing cranks, flowing heads etc etc.

It's all good.

TD

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#383448 - 07/10/11 12:27 am Re: Triumph DIY mechaninc on YouTube [Re: Bob G]
RetroRod Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 701
Loc: QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: Bob G

Regarding the Trident. Sure, under certain conditions when guides have not been changed, you can do a light cleanup with compound and get a few more miles. His concern is the bike is getting oil into the combustion chamber and fouling plugs. Just lapping the valves and reassembling the top end won't take care of that problem.


Thanks for your comments here about seating vlaves, I've not given much thought to them really.

Yes, you are right, his oil leak has nought to do with valves, unless he has one seriously distressed guide there. Not sure what compelled him to dismantle the head. He was told to renew the PRT seals having previously reassembled the engine using old seals and gaskets it seems. RR
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'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel

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