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#376194 - 05/30/11 12:26 am pre-unit starting/ignition problem  
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Eric Williams Offline
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Iowa, U.S>A.
I have a 1961 triumph tiger t110 hardtail chopper with a 650 twin. I was riding the other day and it started missing bad, when i got home i checked the points and a pice had broke off of 1 contact. I ordered and installed new points and now when i try kick stating it, sometimes i cant even budge the kickstart lever others it turns over but kicks back hard, backfiring air thru the carb, and it sounds wierd when kicking. Is there someway the timing got screwed up on its own, or could i have a valve/pushrod problem? help im lost!

Last edited by Eric Williams; 05/30/11 12:49 am.
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#376203 - 05/30/11 12:44 am Re: pre-unit starting problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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Eric Williams Offline
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oh and im running the original Lucas k2fc magneto and a mighty max, has a single AMAL 930 carb.

#376205 - 05/30/11 12:59 am Re: pre-unit starting problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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RF Whatley Online content
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If you removed the plug wires, then you could have reversed them. That's about all the trouble you can get into from the outside.

Last edited by RF Whatley; 05/30/11 1:10 pm.

Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#376239 - 05/30/11 7:25 am Re: pre-unit starting problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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Check the points gap and ignition timing after fitting new points.

With the manual lever at full advance, or the auto-advance jammed fully advanced, the points should open when the piston reaches 3/8" before top dead centre. Or you might want to use the more precise 39 degrees BTDC on a timing disc. Some people prefer 38.

The little contact came loose on my points set too.

While you kick it over with the kill switch pressed or the fuel off, if the carb sucks in, then you feel compression and you hear a faint thumpy noise in the exhaust, there can't be much wrong with the pushrods or valves.

Last edited by triton thrasher; 05/30/11 3:52 pm.

Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#376288 - 05/30/11 1:11 pm Re: pre-unit starting problem [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Originally Posted By: triton thrasher
RF is saying "reversed," the plug wires isn't he?


Yea, good catch. My bad. bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#377178 - 06/04/11 5:20 pm Re: pre-unit starting problem [Re: RF Whatley]  
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Eric Williams Offline
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The plug wires are on correct, I can get it running but it pops and misses sometimes backfires thru carb. I'm sure im just not getting the points set correctly. It has auto advance, is there a good starting point to have the slotted points plate when u install the points or is the slot just for adjusting the point gap?

#377185 - 06/04/11 5:57 pm Re: pre-unit starting problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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What slot?

Do the points open to a 12 thou gap when fully open?

Do the points start to open when the piston is 3/8" before top dead centre, with the auto advance jammed fully advanced?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#377447 - 06/06/11 1:28 pm Re: pre-unit starting problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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Stein Roger Online content
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Eric, did you have the timing cover off for some reason? I'm thinking maybe the intermediate timing gear slipped out and was re-installed incorrectly?

Just a thought...

#379457 - 06/17/11 5:16 pm Re: pre-unit starting problem [Re: triton thrasher]  
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yes or pretty close anyway.... whats the best way to be more exact on the 3/8" before tdc? does it matter which cylinder ?

#379458 - 06/17/11 5:17 pm Re: pre-unit starting problem [Re: Stein Roger]  
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Eric Williams Offline
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no i haven't ever had the timing cover off...

#379473 - 06/17/11 6:56 pm Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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bsatrinor Offline
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sounds like your magnito drive gear slipped on the shaft-very common

#379540 - 06/18/11 5:44 am Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: bsatrinor]  
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Eric Williams Offline
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what do you do to check/fix that?

#379563 - 06/18/11 11:09 am Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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Originally Posted By: Eric Williams
what do you do to check/fix that?


You check the ignition timing.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#379594 - 06/18/11 3:46 pm Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: triton thrasher]  
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never done that on a bike let alone a 61 triumph... im good with automotive engines etc, just a rookie with bikes, im a tool and die maker so i understand machining and fab..... would going to an electronic ignition just solve the problem altogether???

#379647 - 06/19/11 12:17 am Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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Originally Posted By: Eric Williams
never done that on a bike let alone a 61 triumph... im good with automotive engines etc, just a rookie with bikes, im a tool and die maker so i understand machining and fab..... would going to an electronic ignition just solve the problem altogether???


No.

Do you think timing doesn't matter with electronic ignition?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#379655 - 06/19/11 1:32 am Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Eric Williams Offline
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i know timining matters, but it ran perfect in time until the points burnt out and just by replacing points and correctly setting gap it shouldnt just all of a sudden be out of time so bad that the kick start kicks back soo hard u can barely start it and when u can get it running it misses like a bitch!
no matter what the point gap is set at!!

#379678 - 06/19/11 3:28 am Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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HawaiianTiger Online content
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Eric,
You need to pull the timing cover in order to time your bike. It's a drill that is basically the price of admission to pre unit ownership. Well, us guys with 6T's don't have to pull the timing cover because we have distributors that we can rotate in order to set the timing. For mags, in order to time your bike correctly you need to learn how to remove and replace the auto advance unit. It's best to have a repair manual specific to your bike but I'll give you the basics and you can work it out for yourself.
First, remove the timing cover. Then remove the auto advance unit. It has a bolt in the center and by unscrewing the bolt it self-pulls the gear. I use a 6 inch nylon tie wrap to use as a measuring stick to insert into the sparkplug hole. The timing is 3/8" or 5/16" depeding on model before top dead center. In order to do this correctly the auto advance unit needs to be wedged into the full advanced position.
I use a piece of cellophane from a cigarette pack or something similar to place between the points. When I have the engine in position using the tie wrap in the hole to measure with, the cellophane will just be released by the points. I like to wrap a bit of tape around the tie wrap and mark TDC and 5/16" with a pen. Sight these measurements against a reference point near the sparkplug hole. The book will describe this better than I can.
Mistakes that people make:
The idler gear drops out ruining your cam timing.
Forgetting to wedge the advance unit at full advance. Your timing will be 24 degrees too advanced. ow.
Forgetting to remove the wedge after timing the engine.
Forgetting to fully tighten the advance unit and RECHECK the timing.
Getting the sparkplug wires reversed. If your bike bangs and spits, swap the leads.
Never being able to get the timing correct because every time you tighten the advance unit bolt, the timing changes. A big help here is to give the gear a LIGHT rap with a small hammer to pop it onto the taper before tightening the bolt.
I know its a lot of work, but with mags at least, the timing should stay good for a fairly long time before needing adjustment.
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 06/19/11 3:32 am.

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#379686 - 06/19/11 8:02 am Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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Originally Posted By: Eric Williams
i know timining matters, but it ran perfect in time until the points burnt out and just by replacing points and correctly setting gap it shouldnt just all of a sudden be out of time so bad that the kick start kicks back soo hard u can barely start it and when u can get it running it misses like a bitch!
no matter what the point gap is set at!!


Yes and none of us know what is wrong, but it is worthwhile checking the ignition timing, because replacing the points can hardly change anything except timing. If you hadn't mentioned the points, I might suspect a dirty magneto slip ring or HT brushes inserted wrongly, but you didn't touch the HT pickups did you?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#379711 - 06/19/11 2:19 pm Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Eric Williams Offline
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2 years ago i replaced both ht pickups, ended up getting the 1's with the new brushes that dont work, figured it out finally and cleaned the slip ring. have put several thousand miles on since then. Yesterday I did remove both pickups and the slipring was filthy again, cleaned it up good, put it all back together with new spark plugs this time also. It still did the same thing, sometimes you couldnt even budge the kick lever and if you got a kick in it snapped back like crazy bout breaking yer foot. So i did remove the timing cover, everything is there and rotating but thats where i quit fot the night. I'll try redoing the timing today.....

#379712 - 06/19/11 2:21 pm Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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Eric Williams Offline
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I really appreciate all the suggestions and help, I've just been frustrated as hell since this has been going for a month now and im not gaining, and loosing awesome riding weather! thanks again everyone!!!

#379990 - 06/20/11 11:47 pm Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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rohart Offline
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The idea that you time an engine by getting a taper correct, especially withan auto-advance, mech hanging off it, is crazy. If the mag had been mounted so you can twist it for timing, like the dizzies, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Even if you have the auto-advance unit, it would be better if you had the manual advance lever fitted too. Most with the manual lever have no auto, so it's easier to get the taper timed correctly. And if you do have the auto, you can use the manual lever to get the final timing correct.

And in direct answer to your question, yes, a change to too large a gap can easily advance the ignition so it spits back when you kick it over.

If you think the timing hasn't slipped, just try using a smaller gap. The worst that can happen is more burn out and a weaker spark, but if your spark at kickover is good enough to cause kickback, your spark is pretty good.


Richard
#380105 - 06/21/11 4:55 pm Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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That is rather daft advice. If you have auto advance, set it to be correctly timed at full advance, by putting the pinion onto the tapered shaft at the right place, with the weights jammed out with wedges (and rechecking afterwards).

Manually advanced Lucas magnetos are also timed to be correct at full advance. When you retard the lever any, the timing is not precise. You just retard it enough to prevent kickbacks when starting, or to get a good slow idle. Normal riding is done at full advance.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#380126 - 06/21/11 5:40 pm Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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RF Whatley Online content
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Eric -
Welcome to 1961, Brother !!

Mags don't need timing often, but when they do you need a specialist. There is no "modern way" to time these bikes. You have to have access to all the tools we used back in 1961 to do the job. There simply are no short cuts. And on top of that, you have to understand the 4 strokes of the engine and ignition timing in depth.

In essence you have to time a degree wheel to the engine. Then you have to set the engine in the correct angular position. Then you have to set the mag in the correct position. Then finally, you can mate the engine to the mag. Then you test the mating to make sure the mag is going to fire at the correct angular position. This testing is an important step because it is rare to hit the correct position on the first try. Then you have to check the timing on the opposite cylinder, and may have to take further steps.

The whole pre-unit ignition timing affair is so cumbersome a process that it is generally considered foolish to set a mag's timing without first renewing internal parts of the mag itself, such as the oil seal, insulator cups and bearing lube at a minimum.

In short, I can't be too upbeat about your prospects for a self-applied home remedy. There are those that know how to do the job AND have the tools in their possession, and then there is everybody else. Sadly, in all of BritBike.Com that first group you can probably count on 1 hand.


All the best. bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#380145 - 06/21/11 7:36 pm Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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Well, I'd say it's a bit fiddly rather than a black art.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#380208 - 06/22/11 12:59 am Re: pre-unit starting/ignition problem [Re: Eric Williams]  
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rohart Offline
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My point, TT, is that while all the advice is that the timing should be precise, setting the timing by setting a tapered gear on a tapered shaft is anything but a precision operation. However well you do it, you can convince yourself when you strobe it that it should be a little more this way, or a little more that way.

I like things that can be fine tuned until they're right, and I see nothing wrong with arranging the innards of my classic machinery so that it conforms to this principle too.

The Triumph wiring is spaghetti - so I put my own loom together. The Triumph front mudguard mount is incorrectly triangulated, so I redo it properly. The SLS front brake is a danger, so I use a TLS. I am still alive, my bike runs for years without problems, and my mudguard doesn't rattle loose.

In my view, there's nothing wrong with a little subtle enhancement.

Last edited by rohart; 06/22/11 1:00 am.

Richard
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