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#379337 - 06/16/11 10:52 pm Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect?  
Joined: Oct 2007
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Ignoramus Online content
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Ignoramus  Online Content
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Auckland NZ
Not wanting to start a lenghty discussion on how great the new "petrol" is cause we all know it like Trevor apptly described it "very light fuel oil with a few addatives thrown in to make it burn"....ie crap. (but the thread goes where it goes)

For around 12k miles ive been using "MOREYS Upper Cylinder Lube" in the A65L in approx recomended dose of 1/600, so thats kind of a squirt in the A65 when refilled, running good on 91(alleged) octane, no plug probs or such like.

I am wondering if you guys use any of these uppercyliner addatives (irrespective of brands) in your bikes and do you recon it actualy does any good or does it just make you feel better ie PLacebo effect?.

What do you recon it does if anything?

Any draw backs to using it?

In my case I cant decide, but it does make me feel better.

havent had to adjust tappets in 12k miles so theres definatley no valve seat resession going on.

I even give the old M20 a squirt but that proabaly realy is a waste of time on a low comp side valve designed to run on war fuel.

YOur thoughts?


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
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#379350 - 06/17/11 1:09 am Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect? [Re: Ignoramus]  
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Don M. Offline
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California
A squirt of Castoro R makes for a lovely aroma for those following. Cheers, Don.

#379353 - 06/17/11 1:36 am Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect? [Re: Don M.]  
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HarveyH Offline
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Houston, TX
Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) is very controversial in the private aircraft community because there are those who are adamant that it's worth every penny and there are those who aren't. (And the many lab tests over the years also fail to document any tangible benefits to using MMO.) Nonetheless, it remains very popular, even though the FAA steadfastly refuses to approve its use in certificated aircraft engines.

So, if using such additives make you feel good, even if the benefits are questionable, then why not?

Harvey


1970 A65L (Yep, it's one of the "Y" bikes)
1942 HD45
1942 Boeing N2S-3
1930 Ford A
#379375 - 06/17/11 8:15 am Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect [Re: ]  
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I have noticed that Flash Lube in the tank of the A 65 , M 20 & B40 tended to stop the fuel ( which is not petrol) going off as fast.
Some other members seem to think that it dose educe the tendency to pink under load.
I can not attest to that as every thing that I run has low compression so pinking is not a problem


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#379379 - 06/17/11 8:36 am Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect [Re: BSA_WM20]  
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BrizzoBrit Online content
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Brisbane, Australia
I used to run Flashlube (for the valve seats supposedly) but haven't lately. I dont see much difference. Even when I try hard to pick it just cant see a difference in pinging.

Got all panicky when I realised I hadnt run it in a year or so. Just checked my clearances yesterday as part of my regular going over of the bike and no signs of clearances closing up so not running it doesnt to induce seat recession.

Cheers
Ray


BSA 1969 A65F
BSA 1966 A65H
Triumph 1968 T120
Kawasaki A1R
& too many projects!
#379381 - 06/17/11 9:01 am Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect [Re: BrizzoBrit]  
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norton bob Offline
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As most wear occurs at start up any extra lube for the bore cant hurt,it may stop your valve stems from wearing too quick, protect the tank from rust,lube the needle jet,reduce rust in the exhaust,all difficult to quantify but why not??.Worth it for bikes used rarely and low milage i think.

Last edited by norton bob; 06/17/11 9:06 am.
#379500 - 06/17/11 9:55 pm Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect [Re: Ignoramus]  
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Harvey...."Nonetheless, it remains very popular, even though the FAA steadfastly refuses to approve its use in certificated aircraft engines."

intresting comment, but dont aircaft engines still only ever run propper leaded petrol?.

Norton Bob...",all difficult to quantify but why not??."

thats pretty much what i recon.


I am surprised that no one has definatively said YES its realy important.....


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#379535 - 06/18/11 3:51 am Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect [Re: Ignoramus]  
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HarveyH Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ignoramus
Harvey...."Nonetheless, it remains very popular, even though the FAA steadfastly refuses to approve its use in certificated aircraft engines."

intresting comment, but dont aircaft engines still only ever run propper leaded petrol

Igno,

About the only fuel available for litle planes in The States these days is 100LL, or one hundred octane, low lead. It's not unleaded like what we put in our cars and bikes these days but it's hardly leaded-regular like the good old days. Modern aircraft recip engines are designed to run on the reduced lead and some improved valves and guides are available for the older engines. However, sticking exhaust valves continues to be a common problem in the older engines. Therefore, a lot of guys add Marvel Mystery Oil to their gas in order to provide some additional lube to the upper end.

However, no person or lab has been able to squarely prove that using MMO has any benefits. Therefore, the FAA won't approve its use in certificated engines. And to be fair, no person or lab has been able to show that using MMO does any damage either. So its use remains controversial.

So much so, that asking a group of pilots whether to use or not use MMO is a surefire way to see fistfights break out! shocked

Harvey


1970 A65L (Yep, it's one of the "Y" bikes)
1942 HD45
1942 Boeing N2S-3
1930 Ford A
#379539 - 06/18/11 4:42 am Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect [Re: Ignoramus]  
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Auckland NZ
Harvey
most intresting comments ....sure brings some perspective to the issue.

does the FAA actualy give a published reason why they refuse to allow additives?....


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#379542 - 06/18/11 6:33 am Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect? [Re: Ignoramus]  
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Kevin (NZ). Offline
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It may not be the FAA...
The engines are Type Certified and the holder of the certificate is to produce publications and other instructions for the continued airworthiness of their products (ICA's).

The TC holder will be the manufacturer and they will detail in their Type Certificate Data Sheets and other publications (Service Bulletins etc) what fuel and oils are to be used in their products.

All of this is in accordance with FAA rules and regulations.

An approved additive may be used if it meets certain criteria, - it may need to be FAA-PMA approved and either included in the TCDS or it has it's own STC (Supplemental Type Certificate).

Obviously it is not going to be easy to get a STC and will be an expensive process. Lycoming have their own approved additive and Avblend is another oil additive.

http://www.avblend.com/

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/lycoiladditive.php

I did note that Avblend is not approved as an upper cylinder lube but they do claim that is alleviates sticking valves.

The cam shaft in Lycoming engines is certainly subject to corrosion pitting and associated failures. It sits high in the engine and attracts condensation on cooling.

Some oils are blended with the Lycoming type additive, - hmmmm.
The newer Shell multigrade makes that claim.

Nevertheless it is common to use an additive on prone engines.
Some engines are required to have the oil additive:-

Quote:
Textron Lycoming oil additive P/N LW-16702 must be added to the O-320-H and O/LO-360-E engines at airframe installation, and every 50 hours thereafter


Quote:
The FAA has determined that the anti-wear additive contained in Exxon Aviation Oil Elite 20W-50 is the same as Textron Lycoming additive LW-16702 and ...


I realise I have not answered the upper cylinder lube aspects of the question but you can see how the system treats 'additives'.

A prudent owner will do all he can to minimise engine wear and the risk of premature failure. It is up to the owner (and certifying engineer) to formulate the use of oils etc.
Pilots should just do as they are told ....
Very few are mechanically inclined at all. Even fewer are aware of the content of the Bulletins and Service Letters etc..

I am and I most certainly do use additives, you don't need sticking valves or a chewed up camshaft in an aircraft engine.




#379543 - 06/18/11 6:43 am Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect? [Re: Ignoramus]  
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Kevin (NZ). Offline
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oh... and for preserving engines or prior to turning to bring back into service.

http://www.crc.co.nz/keyword/marine-66/p1/item-i5893e923-2916-4439-8ffd-52a64c4520ea-0.htm

Quote:

CRC Marine 66 is a multi-purpose oil designed to prevent damage due to water and salt atmosphere in marine engines and boating equipment. It forms a thin film that lubricates moving parts for smooth action and protects metals from corrosion caused by humidity and salt air for extended periods. Superior penetrating power breaks through rust and corrosion, loosens rusted parts and keeps them free, displaces water from wet equipment and cleans away scale and dirt. It displaces moisture out of ignition systems to help start wet engines.

CRC Marine 66 increases life span, decreases maintenance and assures improved performance of all marine inboard or outboard motors.


It would be ideal for barn find machines. Open it up for access (sump plates, valve inspection covers, primary gear, filler caps, spark plugs etc) and spray literally everywhere.

Aircraft engines are commonly pickled with preserving fluid and then hot oil primed prior to use. The CRC product is a poor man's alternative.

#379580 - 06/18/11 1:39 pm Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect? [Re: Ignoramus]  
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HarveyH Offline
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Kev,

You're certainly correct in what you said. Yes, the FAA has approved some additives for general use (i.e. AvBlend) and has also mandated (via AD) some additives for certain engines such as the infamous H2AD engine in the 78-80 Cessna 172s. You are also correct in that the TCDS will specify which fuels are acceptable.

However, please note that ICAs, per se, are included in STCs and 337s, but not TCDSs. (You might be thinking of life-limited parts which ARE specified in TCDSs.) The general admonition of "shall be maintained in a condition as originally approved by the administrator or in a properly altered condition" dictates that the approved operations, maintenance, and parts manuals, and any applicable STCs and ADs, are to be considered as instructions for continued airworthiness.

In my post above, I was speaking in general terms regarding the legality of using just-any-ole automotive additive in any type-certificated aircraft engine.

Sorry, Igno. We didn't mean to hijack your thread. However, our discussion about aircraft oil additives is certainly applicable to our beloved two-wheelers. The AvBlend that Kevin and I have been discussing is an aviation oil additive that is formulated to prevent rust and corrosion in aircraft engines that do not get exercised regularly. (i.e. engines that may only get flown occasionally.) Our old motorsickles certainly fall into this category as well. However, at $25USD for each can, AvBlend is hardly cheap. But then again, one can treats a gallon of oil so the cost can be spread out over a couple of our bike's oil changes.

Harvey

Last edited by HarveyH; 06/18/11 1:39 pm. Reason: Made it longer just for the fun of it! :-)

1970 A65L (Yep, it's one of the "Y" bikes)
1942 HD45
1942 Boeing N2S-3
1930 Ford A
#379581 - 06/18/11 1:43 pm Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect? [Re: Ignoramus]  
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Quote:
oh... and for preserving engines or prior to turning to bring back into service.

http://www.crc.co.nz/keyword/marine-66/p1/item-i5893e923-2916-4439-8ffd-52a64c4520ea-0.htm



Looking at the size of the packeging, these cannot be professional marine products. That's probably why I've never seen them laughing


Ger B

#379583 - 06/18/11 2:00 pm Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect? [Re: Ger B]  
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HarveyH Offline
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We had a guy (a hayseed farmboy type) back in our Air Force barracks that thought so highly of STP that he figured that regular oil just got in its way so he filled his little Honda's oil tank to the top with it.

He darn near broke his leg trying to kick start it! It was so thick that he never got it to run so we never did find out what the results would have been. Nonetheless, it's a sure bet that it wouldn't have flowed properly through all of the oil passages.

This same guy also tried using strips of shoe leather as crankshaft bearings in his truck. I don't know what eventually became of him but I pray that he's not working in aviation now!!!

He was a likeable fellow but I think that his hand-rolled cigarettes (which always smelled different than the store-bought ones) must have gone to his head.

Harvey


1970 A65L (Yep, it's one of the "Y" bikes)
1942 HD45
1942 Boeing N2S-3
1930 Ford A
#379587 - 06/18/11 2:19 pm Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect? [Re: HarveyH]  
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HarveyH Offline
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And NO, that wasn't me!!!

Harvey


1970 A65L (Yep, it's one of the "Y" bikes)
1942 HD45
1942 Boeing N2S-3
1930 Ford A
#379599 - 06/18/11 4:33 pm Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect [Re: Ignoramus]  
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norton bob Offline
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bromley uk
The last time i tried to fly with a bike i ended up doing cartwheels at 80 mph and can categorically state that upper cyl lube made no difference to the duration of flight.I still like to use it though.

Last edited by norton bob; 06/18/11 4:35 pm.
#379633 - 06/18/11 10:07 pm Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect [Re: Ignoramus]  
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Harvey.."Sorry, Igno. We didn't mean to hijack your thread. However, our discussion about aircraft oil additives is certainly applicable to our beloved two-wheelers. "

No hijack bro....like i said in 1st post (but the thread goes where it goes)

I recon its good when discussion like this happen, specialy when its between dudes who obviously know what they are talking about

Seems there are some valid reasons to use a bit of lube with this new "light fuel oil" we are running.


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#379634 - 06/18/11 10:21 pm Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect [Re: Ignoramus]  
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Ob1quixote Online content
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Seeing that there are aviation knowledgeable folks here...

And I dont want to TRULY hijack the thread, so please respond by PM!

I have a small aircraft propeller from my father's estate I need to sell, and I'm looking for advice on where I should try to sell it. The plane was a Cessna 140, had been modded to an O-200 Continental. Prop is in excellent shape, although I'm guessing it will need some sort of certification to be airworthy.

Just to keep slightly on topic, Rislone has been a family favorite for years, I use it in my high mileage machines every other oil change.


When singing "Kung Fu Fighting" is outlawed, only outlaws will sing "Kung Fu Fighting"
#379653 - 06/19/11 1:20 am Re: Upper Cylinder lube in "petrol" Placebo effect? [Re: Ignoramus]  
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Kevin (NZ). Offline
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Christchurch, NZ
Quote:
Looking at the size of the packeging, these cannot be professional marine products. That's probably why I've never seen them


My mind boggles at the thought of the quantities you would be wanting to use Ger. I have seen the size of some of those Marine engines.. Giant diesel engines.

This CRC product is for the recreational boaties with outboard motors and the likes.
The 4 litre container has a squirt bottle incorporated with it which I find handy for doing all my bikes and other engines here.

I can recall one of the guys on the Triumph forum here starting up a Bonnie that had been sitting many years. I don't think he did much apart from adding engine oil before kicking it.
Little wonder that he seized it and bent a rod etc.....

A few minutes beforehand with a product similar to this may have saved so much grief.
It would be handy for those that have a need to park up their bikes for winter.. Spray before parking it up and it should be almost ready to start come the next riding season.


As for upper cylinder lubes, - I have not seen any claims of damage caused by their use.
I have seen guys on aviation forums discussing the use of engine oil, Marvel Mystery Oil and even some of the Power Up products. They all seem to believe they are doing the right thing by their engine.
I have an open mind..


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