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#375777 - 05/27/11 8:56 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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Thanks RR for your well reasoned responses. Due to your eloquently presented arguments, I've completely changed my opinion, and now believe that a bi-directional PCV valve intended to recirculate blowby in a multi-cylinder engine with little change in crankcase volume is perfectly suited as a one-way valve to maintain negative pressure in a parallel twin changing its crankcase volume 7000 times per minute by 650 or more cc.


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#375796 - 05/27/11 10:01 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: hh]  
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Originally Posted By: hh
Thanks RR for your well reasoned responses. Due to your eloquently presented arguments, I've completely changed my opinion, and now believe that a bi-directional PCV valve intended to recirculate blowby in a multi-cylinder engine with little change in crankcase volume is perfectly suited as a one-way valve to maintain negative pressure in a parallel twin changing its crankcase volume 7000 times per minute by 650 or more cc.


Yeah HH, I thought you'd like that response. LOL

Fact is though that the Triumph engine adapts well to the reed valve PCV that, unlike a ball valve can keep pace with the gas pulses at all RPM. I have the Yamaha XS650 valve installed on my T120 and it works a treat. The valve is one way only. Gas out, zero atmosphere in = negative crankcase pressure. Good bye gas pressure, good bye oil leaks!!

You can work it out for yourself if you just sit down and think it through.

It's no good you postulating that it will not work, because the proof of the pudding is in the eating and I have at least 5 or 6 guys enjoying the very fruits of their labour as we speak. RR

Last edited by RetroRod; 05/27/11 10:09 pm.

'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
#375798 - 05/27/11 10:07 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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Originally Posted By: mick2
cheers RR. where would you suggest i fit the pcv valve and do you have any make in particular?


Mick,

I've a bit tired now, having crossed swords these past hours with my many friends here. When I have rested, I'll post a photo or two, and explain how you can plumb the setup. No charge to Britbike believers. Non-believers have to pay $50. RR


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
#375801 - 05/27/11 10:16 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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I'm not surprised that a Yam 650 valve works just fine since it's an almost identical application, but it's not a PCV valve. Read (no pun intended) up on PCV valves and you'll see that they're much more complicated.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
#375852 - 05/28/11 4:02 am Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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Originally Posted By: mick2
cheers RR. where would you suggest i fit the pcv valve and do you have any make in particular?


Now then Laddie this is your lucky day, a warm breeze up you kilt kinda day.

Let's start with a look at the Yamaha XS650 reed valve and a mounting bracket I fashioned for it:

[img:center][/img]

This is designed to hang from the same mount that retains the head steady brace. Mounted with inlet facing out, it sits ever so snugly in the head recess between the twin carbies. A TR6 mounting will no doubt require a different placement. It makes no difference how far the valve itself is placed from the crankcase:

[img:center][/img]

You will need to fashion your own adaptor to suit your personal plumbing preferences. The fitting on the valve is 3/8". You'll see I used brass and made up an elbow reducer 3/8" to 5/16".

Here we see a view of the valve itself tucked away behind the installed carbies. This is so neat, old RF himself would miss this on an concourse inspection of the bike:

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]

Please ignore the clear plastic tubing in the photo, this is an inappropriate tubing for this application

So, for some plumbing. get yourself some 3/8" or 5/16" black auto transmission oil hose, and connect crankcase outlet to the PCV inlet. Same type of hose from the PCV outlet to wherever you choose to place it. Your done.

Plumbing is somewhat different for the OIFs, given they breathe from the primary case.

The very good quality reed valve is availabe at US$18.00 here:

http://www.mikesxs.net/products-40.html#product-15-0677

Say goodbye to oil leaks McTavish.

Naysayers please feel free to use this design for the small sum of AUD$50.00.

With the advent of E10 and E15 fuels there is a case to be made to include outlets from both front and rear rocker boxes to allow accumulated moisture to be withdrawn. A handful of 5/16" brass fittings and some hose will quickly allow these to be plumbed in to the reed valve intake. No, this will not interfere with oil passing from the rockers into the sump.

HTH. RR

Last edited by RetroRod; 05/28/11 4:13 am.

'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
#375866 - 05/28/11 6:08 am Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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Thanks for the pictures. I tried the power-brake booster valve. Can't say it did much.
Just ordered the reed valve form Mike's XS. Good to know it's a 3/8" input, that's the size of my breather hose. I'll let you know how it works on a modified A65.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#375868 - 05/28/11 6:37 am Re: another breather problem [Re: hh]  
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Originally Posted By: hh
Excessive blowby recirculated into the intake can dilute the mixture and cause loss of power and possibly even detonation.


Anyone seen a significant effect on an engine that wasn't on its way out anyway?

I can see that it might choke a paper air filter and a wet sumping episode would make a right mess.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#375873 - 05/28/11 6:46 am Re: another breather problem [Re: RetroRod]  
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Originally Posted By: RetroRod
Originally Posted By: Bob G
Is there any point to installing a flapper valve on a timed breather? I have thought about trying it, but am wondering if the timing disc does a good enough job.


Go for it Bob, you will be happy with the end result. RR


Would it not be more effective to install the reed valve on another, larger (than the camshaft breather) breather outlet?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#375875 - 05/28/11 6:52 am Re: another breather problem [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Originally Posted By: triton thrasher
Originally Posted By: RetroRod
Originally Posted By: Bob G
Is there any point to installing a flapper valve on a timed breather? I have thought about trying it, but am wondering if the timing disc does a good enough job.


Go for it Bob, you will be happy with the end result. RR


Would it not be more effective to install the reed valve on another, larger (than the camshaft breather) breather outlet?


Maybe, but only if the small diameter tubing, with its increased flow rates, carried excess oil with it.

Unless this became an actual problem, then locating another cranckcase pickup seems like over engineering to me. The purpose here is to clear the sump and create some negative atmosphere.

This does that. If I found excessive oil fouling of the reed valve, only then would I go and look at air flow issues. I'd expect this reed would require a once a year maintenance anyway, for obvious reasons. RR

Last edited by RetroRod; 05/28/11 7:00 am.

'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
#375877 - 05/28/11 7:10 am Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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That reads as if you've never actually installed a reed valve downstream of a timed breather.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#375881 - 05/28/11 8:11 am Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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thanks for the info and pics RR, i am going to order one up. am willing to try (almost) anything to keep my rear mudguard clear of oil smile

#375895 - 05/28/11 11:01 am Re: another breather problem [Re: triton thrasher]  
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I've not jimmy. But I have tried many other configurations and I can tell from hard experience what will work with this thing and what will not.

Now off you go laddie and order yours before the supply dries up. You'll be very happy you did


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
#375896 - 05/28/11 11:03 am Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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Originally Posted By: mick2
thanks for the info and pics RR, i am going to order one up. am willing to try (almost) anything to keep my rear mudguard clear of oil smile


Yeah. Just pop the reed outlet hose down the back of the swing arm or somewhere like that


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
#375944 - 05/28/11 4:00 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: RetroRod]  
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swingarm? what are they then? lol

#376096 - 05/29/11 12:23 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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Mick -
This thread seems to have gotten WAY off track. (Apologies in advance to any thin-skinned contributor from down-under with an icon reminiscent of the Unabomber.) I take it you still have too much oil in your sump?

I must apologize. At first I took your comments to mean that you had too much gas venting from your breather, which in turn was taking oil out with it. This may have led to the ensuing breather/ flapper/ PCV discussion, which IMHO is a total waste of time in dealing with too much oil. The discussion has merit in other quarters, but it simply does not have a bearing on "too much oil".

You have already fitted a nice 4-valve pump, and seem to have done a good job. Secondly, we all understand that these rarely give problems unless your name begins with "Tiger". laughing Therefore, one might turn our gaze to other portions of the bike. The pump can be working in good order, but helpless to overcome other obstructions placed in its way.

You have supplied very little real information about this bike in the form of photos or description. You have provided in-depth description of the assembly and repairs, but really none of the bike itself. If we assume that the orange thing in your icon is your bike, then my old eyes seem to detect a non-stock oil tank. From your descriptions, the problems you are having can be equally caused by such after market oil tanks. In place of doing yet another top-end job, I suggest you turn your attention to the oil tank. I highly suggest you turn OFF the flow of oil to the rocker boxes and see if the wet sumping stops.


Just a suggestion. bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#376098 - 05/29/11 12:42 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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Hi Mick,

Perhaps the oil in the breather line is running back to the pump, after you stop it and take the time to remove sump plug. If you just wanted to stop the drip of oil out the end of the breather, you might just make more of a U with a high spot. You could put a copper scrub pad (piece of) before the high spot of the U.

I am just going by what Jaye Strait has mentioned to me. That is those timed breathers always have oil in line, because the they start in the leeward side of the spin of the crank, which slings oil into them. It is his idea to use the scrubber to collect the oil before the "trap". This then makes a consistent drip back, which the pump will handle. And that this setup also helps to preserve the functioning of any reed valve type breather valve inline.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#376100 - 05/29/11 1:03 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: RF Whatley]  
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Originally Posted By: RF Whatley
Mick -
This thread seems to have gotten WAY off track. (Apologies in advance to any thin-skinned contributor from down-under with an icon reminiscent of the Unabomber.) I take it you still have too much oil in your sump?

I must apologize. At first I took your comments to mean that you had too much gas venting from your breather, which in turn was taking oil out with it. This may have led to the ensuing breather/ flapper/ PCV discussion, which IMHO is a total waste of time in dealing with too much oil. The discussion has merit in other quarters, but it simply does not have a bearing on "too much oil".

You have already fitted a nice 4-valve pump, and seem to have done a good job. Secondly, we all understand that these rarely give problems unless your name begins with "Tiger". laughing Therefore, one might turn our gaze to other portions of the bike. The pump can be working in good order, but helpless to overcome other obstructions placed in its way.

You have supplied very little real information about this bike in the form of photos or description. You have provided in-depth description of the assembly and repairs, but really none of the bike itself. If we assume that the orange thing in your icon is your bike, then my old eyes seem to detect a non-stock oil tank. From your descriptions, the problems you are having can be equally caused by such after market oil tanks. In place of doing yet another top-end job, I suggest you turn your attention to the oil tank. I highly suggest you turn OFF the flow of oil to the rocker boxes and see if the wet sumping stops.


Just a suggestion. bigt


yep, the chop in my icon is the bike in question.
i have since fitted another oil tank of similar design which uses the stock triumph outlet including the gauze filter and a stock triumph return tube (with the restricted hole)i also have plumbed it the same as a stock triumph using the correct t- piece (for want of a better word) so essentially it is the same as a standard triumph but a different shape and still the problem continued.
i am curious to the turning off of feed to rockers?

#376101 - 05/29/11 1:07 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: RF Whatley]  
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RetroRod Offline
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Originally Posted By: RF Whatley
Mick -
This thread seems to have gotten WAY off track. (Apologies in advance to any thin-skinned contributor from down-under with an icon reminiscent of the Unabomber.)



Hey! I resemble that. I'm not the one who took this off topic anyway. I'm not into pointing fingers, but if you check Mick's posts, it was him!!

I've changed my avatar 'cause my unibomber persona is clearly too threatening.


Last edited by RetroRod; 05/29/11 1:09 pm.

'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
#376106 - 05/29/11 1:57 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: btour]  
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Originally Posted By: btour
a copper scrub pad


I think nylon pan scrubbers are safer than metal, just in case a bit finds its way into the engine.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#376107 - 05/29/11 2:10 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: btour]  
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Originally Posted By: btour
If you just wanted to stop the drip of oil out the end of the breather, you might just make more of a U with a high spot. You could put a copper scrub pad (piece of) before the high spot of the U.

I am just going by what Jaye Strait has mentioned to me. That is those timed breathers always have oil in line, because the they start in the leeward side of the spin of the crank, which slings oil into them. It is his idea to use the scrubber to collect the oil before the "trap". This then makes a consistent drip back, which the pump will handle. And that this setup also helps to preserve the functioning of any reed valve type breather valve inline.


Hi detour, good advice.

I am remiss in the advice I offered Mick on breathers, that I did not include this useful tip. In my experiments I used the S/S scrubber as a collector(it is of a courser composition, and not as restictive to air flow as finer materials would be IMHO).

Mick, you may very well need to be creative in locating an "oil" collector somewhere handy that allows you to maintain it here and there. This could be filled with the S/S material, at a safe distance from the crankcase breather outlet. RR


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
#376109 - 05/29/11 2:17 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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aye thats a thought. i also thought of making an alloy catch tank that the breather will feed into?
trouble is i like my bikes stripped to the minimum and basic, the addition of another tank will look unsightly.

#376110 - 05/29/11 2:24 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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Yes the old girl looks a bit naked there, but a bit of thought and suddenly you'll find just the place. RR


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
#376146 - 05/29/11 7:04 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: mick2]  
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RF Whatley Online content
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Originally Posted By: mick2
yep, the chop in my icon is the bike in question.
i have since fitted another oil tank of similar design which uses the stock triumph outlet including the gauze filter and a stock triumph return tube (with the restricted hole)i also have plumbed it the same as a stock triumph using the correct t- piece (for want of a better word) so essentially it is the same as a standard triumph but a different shape and still the problem continued.

I need you to describe your oil return system in detail. Draw and post a schematic of where the filter is in relationship to the rocker feed if possible.

Originally Posted By: mick2
i am curious to the turning off of feed to rockers?

I believe your plumbing is simply returning too much oil to the rockers. Simply put, not enough oil makes it back to the tank. In that case there is only one place for it to gather. I'll give you 3 guesses where.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#376149 - 05/29/11 7:08 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: RetroRod]  
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RF Whatley Online content
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Originally Posted By: RetroRod
Hey! I resemble that. I'm not the one who took this off topic anyway. I'm not into pointing fingers, but if you check Mick's posts, it was him!!

I've changed my avatar 'cause my unibomber persona is clearly too threatening.



As a member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals) [our motto is 'kill it and grill it'] I must object to making rare African species ride Jap bikes. Really, that's just too much.

Zebras actually are much more discerning than that! laughing


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#376151 - 05/29/11 7:34 pm Re: another breather problem [Re: RF Whatley]  
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Originally Posted By: RF Whatley
Originally Posted By: mick2
yep, the chop in my icon is the bike in question.
i have since fitted another oil tank of similar design which uses the stock triumph outlet including the gauze filter and a stock triumph return tube (with the restricted hole)i also have plumbed it the same as a stock triumph using the correct t- piece (for want of a better word) so essentially it is the same as a standard triumph but a different shape and still the problem continued.

I need you to describe your oil return system in detail. Draw and post a schematic of where the filter is in relationship to the rocker feed if possible.

Originally Posted By: mick2
i am curious to the turning off of feed to rockers?

I believe your plumbing is simply returning too much oil to the rockers. Simply put, not enough oil makes it back to the tank. In that case there is only one place for it to gather. I'll give you 3 guesses where.

bigt

draw? jeez, last time i tried that it made a mess of the monitor smile
i have an external filter that uses a T150 element which is mounted on the timing side engine/footrest plate. it is fitted on the return side. roughly half way between this filter and my tank i have a tee which feeds off to the rockers. i am using 5/16" oil lines but a smaller bore to the rockers, 1/4?
the problem doesnt really manifest itself at standstill but when motoring along the road. im a bit wary of doing a few miles to test with no feed to the rockers? perhaps i could try restricting it?

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