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#371995 - 05/07/11 3:46 pm Taps and dies  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
I want to buy some new BSW, BSF and BSC taps and dies but just wondering which manufacturer you guys recommend. Could you give me some advise please? I found GOLIATH, DORMER, TRACY, PRESTO, SHERWOOD. Anything else?

Regarding the BSC taps and dies, most of the manufacturer which I listed above doesn't make the taps and dies for BSC but if you guys know cool manufacturers, let me know please. smile

Thanks,
Machico

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#371996 - 05/07/11 3:50 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: machico]  
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norton bob Offline
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bromley uk
Tracey Tools will supply everything you need.

#371999 - 05/07/11 4:13 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: machico]  
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Don M. Offline
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California
Tracy makes not only all the taps & dies but thread repair sets similar to helicoils for them, too. Cheers, Don.

#372000 - 05/07/11 4:15 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: norton bob]  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: norton bob
Tracey Tools will supply everything you need.


Thanks for the info. Do they make their own tools in UK?

Thanks,
Machico

Last edited by machico; 05/07/11 4:19 pm.
#372001 - 05/07/11 4:19 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: Don M.]  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: Don M.
Tracy makes not only all the taps & dies but thread repair sets similar to helicoils for them, too. Cheers, Don.


Thanks for the info. Sounds good. I will look out their website. Do you use their taps and dies?

Thanks,
Machico

#372003 - 05/07/11 4:39 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: machico]  
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Machico,

Originally Posted By: machico
most of the manufacturer which I listed

Ime, much, much more important than manufacturer is the steel that the tap or die is made - specifically, HSS (High Speed Steel) or HQS (High Quality Steel?), with HQS preferred over HSS.

You will find taps and dies made of 'Carbon' (steel); some companies supply them to classic bike owners on the basis that most taps and dies are used just for cleaning up existing threads. They're always cheaper than HSS and HQS but, for actually cutting a thread in steel - which you will want to do one day - they're junk mad and will end up costing you much more than the additional cost of a HSS or HQS tap or die.

Originally Posted By: machico
which manufacturer you guys recommend.

You might not have this option in Japan but, in GB, I would buy from a supplier like The Tap & Die Co.; they will source from different manufacturers but I am relying on their reputation and specific knowledge of good quality.

Btw, for taps, buy a 'Tap Socket' (aka 'Ratchet Tap Wrench') like this one from Snap-On; it allows you to clean or cut a thread where you can't turn any other type of socket/wrench a full 360 degrees. I have two - that one and the 1/4" to 1/2" one - the amount of time and stress they've saved me is much, much more than their cost. grin

Hth.

Regards,

#372030 - 05/07/11 8:01 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: Stuart]  
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 170
Al J Offline
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Al J  Offline
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I'm a fan of British Tools & Fasteners, but they are in NY:
http://www.britishfasteners.com/index.php/categories/tap-and-die-sets


'66 TR6C Chopper
'02 Bonneville America
#372040 - 05/07/11 9:28 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: machico]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
With most production threads today computer generated using a single point tool, finding a source for "Real" High Speed Steel British taps is almost impossible. I wish someone could point me to a supplier who supplies "real" HSS British taps off the shelf.

All the ones we used in production in our automatic opening die heads (popular before CNC machinery came on the scene) we had made here in the US at GREAT expense. Also all of the taps we used, fork tubes and the like, were made in New Hampshire and the cost 20 years ago would have taken your breath away today. This same company today is supplying one of the UK's leading part suppliers for production. They claim they cannot get decent production taps in the UK for British threads.

I had thought of having a production run made of the popular threads and sizes, but I fear they would be unsalable. But use a real tap or die made from "real" HSS steel and you will be spoiled for life!


#372063 - 05/08/11 5:54 am Re: Taps and dies [Re: Stuart]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 226
machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: Stuart

Ime, much, much more important than manufacturer is the steel that the tap or die is made - specifically, HSS (High Speed Steel) or HQS (High Quality Steel?), with HQS preferred over HSS.

You will find taps and dies made of 'Carbon' (steel); some companies supply them to classic bike owners on the basis that most taps and dies are used just for cleaning up existing threads. They're always cheaper than HSS and HQS but, for actually cutting a thread in steel - which you will want to do one day - they're junk mad and will end up costing you much more than the additional cost of a HSS or HQS tap or die.


Yes I think so too. I want to choose the material of the tools but the most of suppliers don't specify what they are made of on online shop. As you said, they may be carbon steel. The reason why I mentioned the manufacturers is that they specify the materials. The cheaper tools is kind of reasonable but the most of them are unspecified so I don't want to wast of money. I had used cheaper tools but they wore out very fast. mad I make bolts and nuts so want to buy the tools which are hard to wear out and trustworthy. 



Originally Posted By: Stuart
Originally Posted By: machico
which manufacturer you guys recommend.

You might not have this option in Japan but, in GB, I would buy from a supplier like The Tap & Die Co.; they will source from different manufacturers but I am relying on their reputation and specific knowledge of good quality.


Thanks for the info. They look good! I will check if I can buy from them.


Originally Posted By: Stuart
Btw, for taps, buy a 'Tap Socket' (aka 'Ratchet Tap Wrench') like this one from Snap-On; it allows you to clean or cut a thread where you can't turn any other type of socket/wrench a full 360 degrees. I have two - that one and the 1/4" to 1/2" one - the amount of time and stress they've saved me is much, much more than their cost. grin


I didn't know this one. This must be very useful laugh
Maybe I should get one...

Many thanks for teaching me!

Machico

#372064 - 05/08/11 5:58 am Re: Taps and dies [Re: Al J]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: Al J
I'm a fan of British Tools & Fasteners, but they are in NY:
http://www.britishfasteners.com/index.php/categories/tap-and-die-sets


Thanks for the website smile . I will check the website.

Thanks,
Machico

#372065 - 05/08/11 6:47 am Re: Taps and dies [Re: John Healy]  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: John Healy
With most production threads today computer generated using a single point tool, finding a source for "Real" High Speed Steel British taps is almost impossible. I wish someone could point me to a supplier who supplies "real" HSS British taps off the shelf.

All the ones we used in production in our automatic opening die heads (popular before CNC machinery came on the scene) we had made here in the US at GREAT expense. Also all of the taps we used, fork tubes and the like, were made in New Hampshire and the cost 20 years ago would have taken your breath away today. This same company today is supplying one of the UK's leading part suppliers for production. They claim they cannot get decent production taps in the UK for British threads.

I had thought of having a production run made of the popular threads and sizes, but I fear they would be unsalable. But use a real tap or die made from "real" HSS steel and you will be spoiled for life!


Mmmmmm, it's interesting. What is "Real" HSS to you? This makes me feel like the taps and dies I can buy these days seem all same. I'm sometimes tired of the some of reproduction bolts and nuts which are almost useless but is this because of the lack of real tools?

Machico

#372074 - 05/08/11 9:11 am Re: Taps and dies [Re: machico]  
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Buckshot1 Online content
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Buckshot1  Online Content
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Old Hangtown, Kalifornia
You should check to see if the Japanese manufacturer of of cutting tools, OSG, makes any of the taps/dies you seek. They make some of the best cutting tools available. And definitely get HSS, carbon tools are next to useless. HQS? I don't recall seeing that term used before. Try searching MSC or McMaster-Carr if you don't find your needs elsewhere.


Michael

currently owned by a 72 T120R
maker of plunger conversion jig
#372087 - 05/08/11 11:52 am Re: Taps and dies [Re: Buckshot1]  
Joined: Feb 2003
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Rickman Online content
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Rickman  Online Content
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Ohio
I'll chime in here with my :2c;
I actually called Tracy tools, after they had sent me their catalogue.

They asked me what I was going to use the tools for, which was chasing threads.

And the fellow said so because they wondered if I wanted carbon steel tools or HSS tools, as the price was _SIGNIFICANTLY_ different.

You will just need to find the time difference between Japan and England, so you can make a call at a time when they are open for business...

.....Some time ago, I was working in a shop, and they had a tapping fixture for a drill press, quickly wore out several brands of taps, before finding the "Blue Wizard" brand. These things are PRICEY!!!!! A 10-32 was 20-some bucks a pop! But, with good oiling practices, they actually lasted quite awhile.

I wonder now if they make English thread type taps and dies... I'll try to go see that old boss, and ask for the contact info...
Brett

#372095 - 05/08/11 12:17 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: Buckshot1]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: Buckshot1
You should check to see if the Japanese manufacturer of of cutting tools, OSG, makes any of the taps/dies you seek. They make some of the best cutting tools available.


I have already checked the OSG and I think they make only BSW tools. SKC makes BSW and some sizes of BSC. So I am planning to buy taps and dies which I can't buy in Japan.


Originally Posted By: Buckshot1
And definitely get HSS, carbon tools are next to useless. HQS? I don't recall seeing that term used before. Try searching MSC or McMaster-Carr if you don't find your needs elsewhere.


Thanks. I'll check MSC and McMaster-Carr. smile

Thanks,
Machico

#372099 - 05/08/11 12:55 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: Rickman]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
I think it's easy to buy from Tracy because they have online shop and it's easy to order. Surely their HSS tools are expensive like double price shocked

Originally Posted By: Rickman
.....Some time ago, I was working in a shop, and they had a tapping fixture for a drill press, quickly wore out several brands of taps, before finding the "Blue Wizard" brand.

I wonder now if they make English thread type taps and dies... I'll try to go see that old boss, and ask for the contact info...


I searched the blue wizard on internet. I found Clarlson-Osborn tools makes blue wizard but am I correct? I looked out their web catalog but it seems that they don't make English thread type tools. Are they used to make English type tools?

Originally Posted By: Rickman
:2c;

Btw, what is ":2c;"? confused

Thanks,
Machico

#372101 - 05/08/11 1:03 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: Buckshot1]  
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Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Scotland
Hi Michael,

Originally Posted By: Buckshot1
HQS? I don't recall seeing that term used before.

Google "HQS steel".

Hth.

Regards,

#372103 - 05/08/11 1:08 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: machico]  
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Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Scotland
Hi Machico,

Originally Posted By: machico
Originally Posted By: Rickman
:2c;

Btw, what is ":2c;"?

2c aka "My two cents' worth", "My tuppence (two pence) worth" in GB.

Hth.

Regards,

#372107 - 05/08/11 1:23 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: machico]  
Joined: Mar 2005
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John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
The term high speed steel is a family of steels.

There is no world wide "high speed steel" police which one quickly realizes when they try to use some Chinese and Indian taps and dies in production enviroments.

Further having the proper steel is no guarantee that the tap manufacturer knows how to heat treat it. This is a specialty area in itself.

Further a lot of so called high speed steel taps look like they had the teeth turned on a lathe and manufactured using worn out equipment.

There is a difference when you get a tap made from certified stock, heat treated properly, supplied in a proper tooth form for the steel you are cutting and the with the teeth properly sharpened. A BIG DIFFERENCE!


#372114 - 05/08/11 2:13 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: Stuart]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: Stuart
Hi Machico,

Originally Posted By: machico
Originally Posted By: Rickman
:2c;

Btw, what is ":2c;"?

2c aka "My two cents' worth", "My tuppence (two pence) worth" in GB.


Hi Stuart,

Thanks for teaching me laugh
This is my first time to encounter the idiom.

Thanks,
Machico

#372115 - 05/08/11 2:46 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: machico]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
The company we used 20 odd years ago to custom make the British taps we still use today is Jarvis Cutting Tools, Inc. in Rochester New Hampshire. The taps we used for the different fork tube threads and have cut thousands of tubes. While we no longer make fork tubesó it is impossible to compete against the chinese imports, the taps cut every bit as well today as they did 20 years ago.

We sell a popular brand of Indian "HSS" steel tap and die sets and I doubt if I could cut 10 sets of tubes before they were worn out.

While they will cut threads, they are for casual/hobby use only and only modestly better than the regular ones.

http://www.jarviscuttingtools.com/Default.htm


#372130 - 05/08/11 4:33 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: Stuart]  
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Buckshot1 Online content
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Buckshot1  Online Content
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Old Hangtown, Kalifornia
Originally Posted By: Stuart
Hi Michael,

Originally Posted By: Buckshot1
HQS? I don't recall seeing that term used before.

Google "HQS steel".

Hth.

Regards,


Seems to be a marketing term.


Michael

currently owned by a 72 T120R
maker of plunger conversion jig
#372141 - 05/08/11 5:32 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: machico]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

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Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
I haven't read through all of these posts , and this may have been hit on already , but my thinking on threadforms is simple . The original hardware on these bikes was less than a step above junk for the most part. I prefer to replace anything that isn't threaded into something on the bike with SAE grade 8 or better hardware . It doesn't look "correct" for the concourse types but it "works". I bought a set of HSS taps and dies maybe 25 years ago (I am a mechanic by trade and like to have the right tool whenever possible)but I very rarely use them, what I find myself using quite often is a thread file . This is a simple tool that is used to repair internal and external threads .I have no idea where they are available these days but if you are gonna work on the old stuff they are invaluable, especially with a BSA where there was so much specialty hardware .I am a Detroit boy so I dont do metric but I believe there was a difference back then between the Euro and japanese metric threads but you should beable to find proper hardware locally that will suit your need unless you insist on originality.

FWIW-BONZO

#372219 - 05/09/11 4:09 am Re: Taps and dies [Re: John Healy]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: John Healy
The company we used 20 odd years ago to custom make the British taps we still use today is Jarvis Cutting Tools, Inc. in Rochester New Hampshire. the taps cut every bit as well today as they did 20 years ago.


Thanks for the info. it sounds really good. It is indeed unfortunate that they don't make tools for British threads.

Thanks,
Machico

#372223 - 05/09/11 4:51 am Re: Taps and dies [Re: BONZO R.I.P.]  
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machico Offline
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machico  Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: BONZO
The original hardware on these bikes was less than a step above junk for the most part. I prefer to replace anything that isn't threaded into something on the bike with SAE grade 8 or better hardware . It doesn't look "correct" for the concourse types but it "works".

I was thinking of the same thing. It's easier to choose and replace and I think it works better than original or repro hardware. I don't trust the most of reproduction bolts and nuts. So for important parts, I use better hardware which is rolled thread. I sometimes use hardware for aircraft. However, I'm kind of new to old british bikes. It is important for me to use correct hardware to learn the old way. I also think that it's important for me to use correct hardware to leave the correct british bikes for posterity in Japan. In addition to this, they use metric in Japan and if I use metric size, next owner will be very confused.
BSW?UNF?BSC? UNC? Metric? BSF? confused


Originally Posted By: BONZO
I bought a set of HSS taps and dies maybe 25 years ago (I am a mechanic by trade and like to have the right tool whenever possible)but I very rarely use them, what I find myself using quite often is a thread file .

I have never heard of the tool. The name may be different in Japan. I'll look out the tool. Thanks for the info.

Thanks,
Machico


Last edited by machico; 05/09/11 4:52 am.
#374067 - 05/18/11 5:40 pm Re: Taps and dies [Re: Stuart]  
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Britishtools Offline
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Britishtools  Offline

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Lyons, NY
Originally Posted By: Stuart
Hi Machico,

Originally Posted By: machico
most of the manufacturer which I listed

Ime, much, much more important than manufacturer is the steel that the tap or die is made - specifically, HSS (High Speed Steel) or HQS (High Quality Steel?), with HQS preferred over HSS.

You will find taps and dies made of 'Carbon' (steel); some companies supply them to classic bike owners on the basis that most taps and dies are used just for cleaning up existing threads. They're always cheaper than HSS and HQS but, for actually cutting a thread in steel - which you will want to do one day - they're junk mad and will end up costing you much more than the additional cost of a HSS or HQS tap or die.

Originally Posted By: machico
which manufacturer you guys recommend.

You might not have this option in Japan but, in GB, I would buy from a supplier like The Tap & Die Co.; they will source from different manufacturers but I am relying on their reputation and specific knowledge of good quality.

Btw, for taps, buy a 'Tap Socket' (aka 'Ratchet Tap Wrench') like this one from Snap-On; it allows you to clean or cut a thread where you can't turn any other type of socket/wrench a full 360 degrees. I have two - that one and the 1/4" to 1/2" one - the amount of time and stress they've saved me is much, much more than their cost. grin

Hth.

Regards,


Just so everyone is clear....Tap and Die Company in the UK gets their carbon steel taps and dies in India and re-etches them "HQS - made in UK" and marks them up 200%. They are made by the same manufacturer that most suppliers get them (same as our company too). There is nothing wrong with the quality but just remember, just becuase the tool says "HSS", "HQS" or "Made in UK" on it, doesnt mean that is so.

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