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Clutch and kick start problem #36899
03/28/08 3:06 am
03/28/08 3:06 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
andy_baldassar Offline OP
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andy_baldassar  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
I was riding my 67 lightining today and after a couplel of hours of riding when I shifted into 2nd I noticed the clutch slip, returned to 1st and same thing pulled over and I turned off the bike. Check the trans fluid and looked low. Oh S**T! I tried to restart and the kicker will not engauge. If the bike id in gear the kicker will turn the rear wheel but not the engine. What do you guys think does the kicker need a good clutch to work? Any help would be great.

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Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36900
03/28/08 3:30 am
03/28/08 3:30 am
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
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Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
We have to assume that you know some basics. The clutch slipping and the transmission fluid being low are not going to be related, just a bad coincidence.
The kick start not working could be related to the low trans oil but could also be another bad timing thing.How was the primary oil level? Did it start a little hard at the beginning of the ride?
You see if the engine oil found it's way to the engine case(wet sump) and you missed this and got it running than that oil got pushed into the primary through the seal and it's full up with oil and has a slipping clutch all normal and too common. Now loosing trans fluid and not seeing a sticky leak puddle on the floor that is not to common.


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36901
03/28/08 3:48 am
03/28/08 3:48 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
andy_baldassar Offline OP
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andy_baldassar  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
Update: I did not mention that the cluth now will not engage. It tried to fiddle with the clutch adjustment and no results. And yes it was a 3 kick start after a 10 min. stop, which is strange it always starts first kick.

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36902
03/28/08 4:01 am
03/28/08 4:01 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
andy_baldassar Offline OP
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andy_baldassar  Offline OP
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Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
Update: Yes I am new to these bikes but was a auto mech for years. I am just figuring this all out. This was my 3rd ride. I have read about wet sumping and didn't see much oil inside the right side cover when I removed it, just a few drops worth. The kicker spring was good and the kicker returns fine but does not turn the engine. The primary side was a little low on fluid, but was oiling. I have had some problems with the cluth draging before all this happen. I read some other threads and I understand what may be wrong but I don't understand why the kicker would fail at the same time?

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36903
03/28/08 12:04 pm
03/28/08 12:04 pm
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
norbsa48503 Offline
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norbsa48503  Offline
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Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
Ignoring the kick start for now, can you put it in gear push it with the clutch in pop the clutch while it's moving and engage(turn over) the motor?
Look for major damage to the clutch center cush rubbers or more likely a sheared key on the main shaft of the transmission that is letting the clutch center spin free on the taper.


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36904
03/28/08 12:51 pm
03/28/08 12:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,517
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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Posts: 3,517
argyll. scotland, uk
Norbsa has it, probably clutch centre nut is loose or the key at the clutch centre taper has failed.
Pod


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36905
03/28/08 1:30 pm
03/28/08 1:30 pm
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 144
wisconsin
BSAketcase Offline
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Posts: 144
wisconsin
The kicker wont turn the motor if the clutch is slippin/spinnin. It turns the motor through the trans/primary

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36906
03/28/08 1:49 pm
03/28/08 1:49 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Alex Online content

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Alex  Online Content

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Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Sounds to me like it's just a slipping clutch. The clutch is what couples the engine to the gearbox : the kickstart operates on the gearbox. Therefore, slipping clutch = no kickstart.

When you say that you adjusted the clutch, I assume you mean at the lever? There is another adjustment that may be out of whack.

1. Adjust the lever and the cable at the outer timing (right side)cover as loose as it will go.
2. Remove the rear inspection plug from the primary cover.
3. Loosen the locking nut on the clutch center.
4. Back the adjusting screw on the clutch center off until you feel a sharp drop in resistance. Back the screw out another 1/4 turn.
5. Tighten the locknut
6. Adjust the lever and/or the cable end at the Timing side until you have about 1/16" of play at the lever.

If this doesn't work, then I gotta agree with pod and norbsa and you'll have to remove the primary cover


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36907
03/28/08 2:24 pm
03/28/08 2:24 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
andy_baldassar Offline OP
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Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
Hi All,

I stayed up late and read over the manuals and could only come up with the same conclusion as you all did, that the clutch and kicker problem where related because they both spin the final drive gear.
When I checked the clutch adjustment the nut did seem to lose to be effective. I will try an adjustment but I think its cooked.
When you refer to the POD do you mean the clutch disc set. Is it most comman to replace just discs and springs or is there usually more. I am just wondering because I could order the usual before I teardown the cluth and see whats damaged. Finally and recomendations on cluth part maker. Barnetts seems to make clutch parts?

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36908
03/28/08 2:36 pm
03/28/08 2:36 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 662
Arizona Territory
R
Riff_Raff Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 662
Arizona Territory
Have you checked the torque on the clutch hub nut (located behind the clutch pressure plate & in the center of the clutch plates) ?

Not sure what the torque spec is for your BSA, but on my 650 Triumph, the clutch hub nut gets torqued at 50 ft. lbs. If it's loose, the kicker won't engage & any clutch adjustment might only hold up briefly.

It'd be a good idea to pull the primary cover anyways to insure that no clutch rollers have fallen out due to sloppiness in the clutch basket. If the clutch hub key hasn't sheared & you get the proper torque on the clutch hub nut, you'd probably be good to go with a normal clutch adjustment after torqueing the clutch hub nut.


"Factory Stock Is A Suggestion Only"
Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36909
03/28/08 2:39 pm
03/28/08 2:39 pm
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
norbsa48503 Offline
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norbsa48503  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
Get your set of rubbers for the cush drive, a set of friction plates,fresh key way, tab washer and the primary gasket all from the same spot Map cycle because they have the orange friction plates. Save on the enemy shipping cost. oh and if you do not have the clutch center removal tool and a spare clutch cable get one now as well. JMO


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36910
03/28/08 6:35 pm
03/28/08 6:35 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,574
ca, us
D
DMadigan Online content
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DMadigan  Online Content
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,574
ca, us
Andy, you can only bump start the engine in gear, not neutral. Kicking in gear will make the bike roll. The kickstart drives the main shaft which drives the clutch which drives the primary chain and then the engine. The high gear has to go through a gear set for 1st-3rd and direct to the main shaft in 4th.
There should not be oil behind the outer timing cover. That should be dry. The inner cover seals the engine and gearbox. Being dry sump there should only be a small amount of engine oil in there.
Rock the bike back and forth while changing gears to be sure they all engage. Even with a sheared clutch hub keyway you should see the primary chain tighten as you push it in gear. The kickstart has a ratchet on the end of the mainshaft. It is spring loaded to allow the mainshaft to turn when the engine starts and the kickstart gear is engaged. If you have no resistance (other than return spring) on the kickstart then it is probably the ratchet.
Barnett makes both friction and drive plates. Replace when the tabs get worn (loose) in the slots. If you take off the pressure plate be sure to kick the clutch over disengaged and watch that the plate rotates square to the shaft (no wobble) otherwise the clutch will drag.

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36912
03/29/08 1:43 am
03/29/08 1:43 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
andy_baldassar Offline OP
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andy_baldassar  Offline OP
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Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
Update: First off, Thanks for the info and ideas. Here is what I have done.
I made the clutch adjustment as sugested by Alex. This did allow the clutch to engage enough to slightly turn the engine but not a full revolution, just top of comperssion stoke and then it slips. Then I removed the primary cover to inspect and try to better adjust clutch. (Remember how I thought the gear box oil was low, I was wrong. The half a pint I poured in after the clutch slipping had made its way to the primary case. amatuer huh) Anyway I am currently waiting while I drain the gearbox oil. Its real cold here so it's taking a while. I did notice the cluth chain wheel does rock side to side about an 1/8 or so. What is up with the slop? Worn washer/spacer? After the oil drains and drys I will readjust and fill gear box with 7/8 pint. How do you check you gearbox oillevel?

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36913
03/29/08 2:18 am
03/29/08 2:18 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 406
Chelmsford MA
M
MarcB Offline
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 406
Chelmsford MA
On the 67, there is a small plug connected to a pipe in the center of the main, larger drain plug. Removing this small plug allows you to fill until the fluid rises above this pipe, at which point it will begin to drain through.

Once no more fluid is coming out of the small plug, your level should be right on.

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36914
03/29/08 2:21 am
03/29/08 2:21 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
andy_baldassar Offline OP
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andy_baldassar  Offline OP
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Leadville, CO
Nice, Thanks Mark

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36915
03/29/08 12:51 pm
03/29/08 12:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,517
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,517
argyll. scotland, uk
Some movement in the clutch basket is normal.
With the prim case off, remove the clutch pressure plate, put the bike in gear, apply the back brake and see if the clutch hub centre nut is tight.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36916
03/29/08 12:53 pm
03/29/08 12:53 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Alex Online content

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Alex  Online Content

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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Andy, 1/8 of an inch of rocking indicates a serious problem with the clutch basket bearing. That much slop will make any adjustment pretty arbitrary. There are two possible reasons for the wobble: The thrust washer for the basket is badly worn or the cush drive is really worn. You won't know until you take the clutch basket off.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36917
03/29/08 4:23 pm
03/29/08 4:23 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 662
Arizona Territory
R
Riff_Raff Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Arizona Territory
A third reason for basket rocking could be a loose clutch hub centre nut, yes ? When it's torqued to spec, it can tighten up all the slop in the assembly.

If all parts pass inspection & the clutch hub centre nut is torqued properly, it could cost nothing more than one's time in doing the needed adjustment. Please see "pod's" above post for the proper way to torque it down.


"Factory Stock Is A Suggestion Only"
Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36918
03/29/08 5:03 pm
03/29/08 5:03 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,574
ca, us
D
DMadigan Online content
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DMadigan  Online Content
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ca, us
The chainwheel will not rock when the clutch is engaged (not lifted). The springs keep it against the rear thrust washer. It wallows around when lifted because the only thing keeping it in place is the rollers on the hub.
If the damper is rocking on the hub then it has to be replaced. Putting in new cushions will not help. The damper has an outer spline that the driven plates sit on, an inner piece with three blades that the cushions drive and an outer cover plate. The inner piece has splines that sit on the hub which sits on the taper of the mainshaft.
If adding hypoid oil to the gearbox has gotten into the primary then you have a problem with the high gear bush. The bush extends through the rear seal of the sprocket "door" but very little should find its way into the primary.
The kickstart turns the mainshaft. If the bike is in gear it should turn the rear wheel. Not turning the engine means the problem is likely in the clutch assembly. Could be the hub is loose on the shaft. If that is the case then you probably sheared the woodruff key and possibly damaged the keyway slot in the shaft.
You need to disassemble the clutch completely to find the problem.

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36919
03/29/08 5:28 pm
03/29/08 5:28 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,327
Central Virginia
Lannis Online content

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Lannis  Online Content

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Posts: 12,327
Central Virginia
Andy -

Exactly the same thing happened to me on my well-(I thought) maintained A65, same symptoms as you.

Turns out that the three screws that hold the clutch hub together, and are peened on the edges so they won't back out, had all three of them backed out.

No damage, but as everyone else has already said, the clutch needs to come completely off to sort it out. (They won't back out THIS time! I'll let the next owner find out why ....)

May as well get used to pulling the clutch. One of the banes of the Britbiker's existence is the fact that the clutch needs to come off the bike for a LOT of different maintenance items, like changing the rear drive sprocket or the mainshaft seal, unlike Japanese bikes where it's just sitting off to itself.

Be sure to get the proper clutch hub puller. Sometimes a two- or three-legged gear puller just won't work - you need the right one that pops it off by using the interior threads. Only about $20.

Lannis


I'm like super lazy today. It's like normal lazy, but I'm wearing a cape.
Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36920
03/29/08 6:16 pm
03/29/08 6:16 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
andy_baldassar Offline OP
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andy_baldassar  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
Thanks for the info Alex. I will be tearing the clutch down this weekend if I can get it into my shop. The snow is still piled high around here. The back of the shop has 6ft of snow and ice in front of the door and the south side is a narrow path through 3 ft of snow. I have alot of shoveling to get done before I get to the clutch. Norbsa recomended I checked out MAPcycle and I did they seem to have a full selection of OEM and some nice re-engineered parts. Has anyone tried their pressure plate or the full dry clutch conversion?

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36921
03/30/08 1:51 am
03/30/08 1:51 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
andy_baldassar Offline OP
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Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
Update:

Well I shoveled and hard packed the snow trail behind my house and some how talked my wife into helping me roll the bike through the house and out the back door to my shop.
I torn down this afternoon and the problem was the nut that holds the clutch chainwheel on was a bit loose so I took the whole assemble down and found no damage!
I cleaned all the excess oil of the clutch plates, reassemble, ajusted and fill all the fluids to their proper level. Fired her up and so far so good. I will hopefully road test tommorow if we do not get to much snow.

Thanks everyone for their input I would not have known what to look for with out the comments. This site is surely a huge help!!!!!!!!!!!!
Andy

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36922
03/30/08 1:53 am
03/30/08 1:53 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
andy_baldassar Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
One last bit, I now have no rocking side to side of the chain wheel and it spins real nice.

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36923
03/30/08 2:36 am
03/30/08 2:36 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
andy_baldassar Offline OP
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andy_baldassar  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Leadville, CO
Another question for the wise. What other nuts and bolts should I regulaly check? I just got the bike and have not had to put gas in yet, do I need to add lead substitute?

Re: Clutch and kick start problem #36924
03/30/08 3:10 am
03/30/08 3:10 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,575
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Sydney Australia
OK.
Leave it in the shop till you get a new lock washer for the nut.
Or rather the tabbed lack washer for the clutch hub nut.
These are a ( female dog) to get into position and then bend the side up but without it you are in for repeat performances of the show you have just finished.
Some might have had more luck than me but I have never been able to keep then hub nut tight with anything else but the tab washer with both sides bent up.
Locktite just dose not seem to be up to the job.

To bend the sides up I use an old screwdriver ground down to a hook to start it, then a really big screwdriver ( or small pry bar) to get the sides up followed by a pinch with a pair of needle nosed lock jaw pliers to get it good & tight.
Once done like this you never need to check it again but you do need to replace the lock washer every time so buy 1/2 dozen of them.

The alloy pressure plates are a very good idea and one of the modifications that I always recommend to all BSA riders.
Even better if it comes with the radial roller lifter kit.

As for lead substitutes they are not really necessary unless you are thinking of 100,000miles / year but I have found that most BSA's & A 65's in particular do benefit from a dose of Flashlube or it's USA equivalent. A 65's are a bit finiky with their timing & the flash lube seems to aleviate pinking to some extent.

AS for nuts & bolts it will depend very much upon your actual bike & the way you ride it.
Till you work out what comes loose on your bike I would suggest front & real axel nuts , brake anchor plate, gear change & brake lever pinch bolts & kick start cotter pin.
Other than that, grab the mudguards and give them a wiggle before you start the bike, anything that is coming loose will let you know.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
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