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#364737 - 03/25/11 10:34 am What is this frame?  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Hi. Just wondering what the frame I have is. confused
This is a pre unit frame.




The number on the headstock is "R 04745 R".
04745 looks legit to me and I think the frame is 1957 but do you guys think the number 04745 is legit and 1957? Does anybody know what the "R" stands for?

Thanks,
Machico

(If anybody knows anything about T100RR, please let me know)


Last edited by machico; 03/29/11 5:53 am.
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#364745 - 03/25/11 11:33 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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Dick Harris Online content
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My '57 TR-6 is 04793,no R on each end though. Dick

#364746 - 03/25/11 11:45 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: Dick Harris]  
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: Dick Harris
My '57 TR-6 is 04793


Thanks Dick. Your number is close to mine! Would it be possible for you to show me the picture of your number if you don't mind?

Thanks,
Machico

Last edited by machico; 03/25/11 11:51 am.
#364917 - 03/26/11 4:07 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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Jon W. Whitley Online content
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Machico,

Please post a full picture of the whole frame. Aside from the R's I would tend to agree that the numbers are 1957.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1970 BSA A65F 650 - Project

#364926 - 03/26/11 6:08 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: Jon W. Whitley]  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: Jon W. Whitley

Please post a full picture of the whole frame. Aside from the R's I would tend to agree that the numbers are 1957.



Jon W,

Here is a full picture of the whole frame.




This frame is a rigid frame and looks so weird. It has the 1955 gusseted headstock with small bearing top, same down tube as swing arm frame. The lug including the seat mount looks later type of rigid frame but there is no split lug for air cleaner, like 52 and 53. I thought it must be made up by somebody in the past at first but there are no evidences of it. Why did the rigid frame exist in 1957 if the number is factory stamping?

My friend told me that he would guess the R stands for replacement. The number doesn't look factory stamping to him. The "R" doesn't look legit to me either but 04745 looks factory stamping and legit to me. What do you think?

My guess is that this frame may be for T100RR sold by Jomo and Tricor in 1957-58.

Thanks,

Machico

Last edited by machico; 03/26/11 2:58 pm.
#364930 - 03/26/11 6:35 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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Jon W. Whitley Online content
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There have been a few of these surfacing lately. I will have to do some research.

The TRW did have a rigid frame and would have been produced in 1957 up to 1964 with a rigid frame but the numbers don't coincide.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1970 BSA A65F 650 - Project

#364932 - 03/26/11 7:03 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: Jon W. Whitley]  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: Jon W. Whitley

The TRW did have a rigid frame and would have been produced in 1957 up to 1964 with a rigid frame but the numbers don't coincide.


Jon W,

Oh, I forgot about the TRW. But the frame of TRW looks obviously different from this one.

Thanks,
Machico

#364958 - 03/26/11 11:38 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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Dick Harris Online content
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Also notice the early style primary chain adjuster boss on the back of the frame. Dick

#364972 - 03/26/11 1:29 pm Re: what year is this frame? [Re: Dick Harris]  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: Dick Harris
Also notice the early style primary chain adjuster boss on the back of the frame. Dick


Yes it has the boss. The year is 1957 but it is totally rigid frame. what a weird frame it is!

Thanks,
Machico

#365015 - 03/26/11 8:24 pm Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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HawaiianTiger Online content
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Triumph continued to produce rigid frames at least until '57 so my guess is that it is either a TRW or a T100R flat track frame.
That is provided that the numbers are genuine.
Since you are in Japan I would think that there are quite a few of these laying about in peoples garages. They were used almost exclusively in Auto Racing which is a form of Speedway on banked and paved ovals. I remember in the '70's when some Japanese guys came over and bought up every crank, cylinder and head they could find in Southern California trying to keep their pre unit Auto Race bikes going. Old Larry Benton sold a ton of stuff to those guys. Here's some footage of these guys in action. I would have aboslutely LOVED to have done this back then. What a GAS!
Replacement frames came without numbers. The replacement frames for 1960 had an X stamped on the right side of the headstock.
Japanese speedway
This one has a wreck!
Auto Race AH!!
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 03/26/11 9:40 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#365086 - 03/27/11 5:49 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: HawaiianTiger]  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Hawaiian Tiger,

My guess is that this frame is for not T100R flat tracker but T100RR flat tracker. I found the thread on The Jockey Journal about T100R.

The Jockey Journal T100R thread

According to the thread, the numbers of T100R is from 59000 to 59129. If this frame is T100R, the frame numbers would be within 59000 to 59129.

According to the book "TRIUMPH RACING MOTORCYCLES IN AMERICA" written by Lindsay Brooke, there were two type of racing rigid racers sold by JOMO and Tricor in 1955-1957. They were catalogued T100R in 1955-1956 and T100RR in 1957-1959. 134 T100R were built in late 1954, including 4 specifically made for Daytona. T100R was continued for 1956. It changed to T100RR for 1957 to 1958 when the flat tracker added a special cylindrical oil tank, Delta head, GP carbs, and special gas tank.

I have found some T100R and T100RR photos on internet and found that T100R doesn't have a gusseted headstock and have a tapered down tube which is same as standard rigid frame. T100RR have a gusseted headstock with small bearing top and the down tube looks fat, like swing arm frame. The cylinder head was changed to delta head in 1957. So my guess is that the frame doesn't need to have a split lug for air cleaner anymore from 1957. I can't find the details of T100RR so I'm not sure how the frame is like, how many T100RR were built. So I have to judge from only the pictures.

1955 T100R




1957 T100RR




Regarding the Auto race in Japan, I have heard the same thing as you said from older triumph guy in Japan. Those triumph parts from US were highly tuned in Japan. The racing balanced crankshafts, racing heads, puma crankcases, mitsubishi magnetos(two contact breakers) are still found in Japan and they are very expensive. Last time I saw the racing engine tuned by Jim Kibblewhite for auto race, the price was about $5000!

Thanks,
Machico





Last edited by machico; 03/27/11 10:11 am.
#365087 - 03/27/11 5:53 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: HawaiianTiger]  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Replacement frames came without numbers. The replacement frames for 1960 had an X stamped on the right side of the headstock.


Hawaiian Tiger,

Thanks for this info. I didn't know that smile

Thanks,
Machico

#365299 - 03/28/11 3:26 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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HawaiianTiger Online content
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That's a nice T100r from Oz. The paint should look like this one I painted a few years back. Note that there is no "R" registered trademark letter in the lower sweep of the logo. That came in the sixties. The egg shape is more oriented to the horizontal also. Nitpicking of course, but I took my dimesnions off the original tank owned by Don Vesco because I wanted to get it right.


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#365304 - 03/28/11 4:54 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: HawaiianTiger]  
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machico Offline
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Hawaiian Tiger,

That's nice color. I have never seen the tank painted like that. Most of tanks I encountered before were like the picture i posted. Is the paint supposed to be like yours? Surely there is no "R" in the catalog I posted. I didn't notice it either. I think I have a tank which seems to be for T100R. The tank doesn't have any thread holes for the parcel grid, the emblems and the knee pads but what do you think?

Thanks,
Machico

#365390 - 03/28/11 6:55 pm Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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Here's a pic of Vesco's bike. Your tank sounds like the T100R tank but I am not that well versed in the differences in the various tanks ie. comp accessory tank vs T100R tank.
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 03/28/11 6:57 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#365490 - 03/29/11 4:20 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: HawaiianTiger]  
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machico Offline
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Hawaiian Tiger,

Thanks for the very cool pic! That's very informative. I wish I could see this T100R in person.

Do you have any info or pics of T100RR?

Thanks,
Machico

#365502 - 03/29/11 6:09 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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Originally Posted By: machico
Hawaiian Tiger,

Thanks for the very cool pic! That's very informative. I wish I could see this T100R in person.

Do you have any info or pics of T100RR?

Thanks,
Machico

I'm not that deeply into the race bikes although I think they are just as cool as a Triumph can be. I'll bet Johnny Green knows more about these. Paging Ton-up Johnny Green.
Here's his blog spot. Ton-up Classics
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 03/29/11 6:22 am.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#365544 - 03/29/11 1:51 pm Re: what year is this frame? [Re: HawaiianTiger]  
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machico Offline
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Originally Posted By: HawaiianTiger

I'll bet Johnny Green knows more about these. Paging Ton-up Johnny Green. Here's his blog spot. Ton-up Classics


Hawaiian Tiger,

Thanks for the info. I'll try.

Thanks,
machico

Last edited by machico; 03/29/11 1:52 pm.
#365558 - 03/29/11 4:45 pm Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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Machico
What are the casting numbers on the Frame?, the '57 Headstock has a number of E3905A, the lug that connects the top horizontal tubes and rear downtube should be E3537. I am not too familiar with the TRW frame. The Frames on the racing bikes as far as I know did not have any Letters to accompany the Frame number, that is certainly the case with my TR5R. First impressions is that it is a pre '51 Rigid Frame, I do not think I have seen the "R" or "4" in that font but cannot be sure.
Jonnie.

#365591 - 03/29/11 7:20 pm Re: what year is this frame? [Re: tonupjonnie]  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Originally Posted By: tonupjonnie

What are the casting numbers on the Frame?, the '57 Headstock has a number of E3905A, the lug that connects the top horizontal tubes and rear downtube should be E3537.


Jonnie,

Thank you so much for your comment. The casting numbers of the head stock is F1910. The lug that connects the top horizontal tubes and rear downtube doesn't have a casting number. The lug on the front down tube for engine plates has a number of F3537.

I have two 1952 frames and the 1955 frame. Their casting number of the headstock is all F1910. The 1952 frames don't have the casting number on the lug that connects the top horizontal tubes and rear downtube either.

I think the shape of headstock was changed in around 1953. I have seen the 1953 headstock with a flanged top. My 1955 headstock has a flanged top too. This unusual 1957 frame has a flanged top too. My 1952 headstocks don't have a flanged top. So I think this means that this unusual frame is not a pre 51.

The 1957 frame should have gusseted headstock with a gusseted big bearing top.








The last picture is the unusual 1957 rigid frame.
I removed the old paint from the frame today but I'm so mixed up.

Thanks,
Machico

#365598 - 03/29/11 7:40 pm Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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Getting mixed up when trying to understand the nature of how and why Triumph did things is the normal state of mind. It certainly doesn't make sense that Triumph would use the small bearing headstock for a race bike when the large bearing unit was available. It must have to do with something else, like steering angle. It could even be something quite ordinary like, perhaps there were 50 of these frames laying about and nothing to do with them.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#365666 - 03/30/11 2:22 am Re: What is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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Jon W. Whitley Online content
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Machico,

I haven't found anything yet. That thread on the JJ is very good. I did get excited when I was looking in my Triumph Trophy Bible and it listed some 1957 TR5/RR racers with numbers close to yours but no luck there.

Here is another thread on the JJ with a frame situation similar to yours which may help in the quest for answers to this mystery.

http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78680


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1970 BSA A65F 650 - Project

#365685 - 03/30/11 5:31 am Re: What is this frame? [Re: Jon W. Whitley]  
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machico Offline
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JAPAN
Jon W,

I looked in the Trophy bible just now. I hadn't looked in the book even though I have it. Surely the numbers are close to mine but mmmmmm....

Thanks for another thread. I have seen it too. The thread makes me mix up more. The 1956 frame has a big bearing headstock. The lower tank rail is bent, like normal swing arm frame. It's so mysterious.

Btw, thanks for trying to figure out. I appreciate your time.

Thanks,
Machico

#365688 - 03/30/11 6:22 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: HawaiianTiger]  
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Originally Posted By: HawaiianTiger
It certainly doesn't make sense that Triumph would use the small bearing headstock for a race bike when the large bearing unit was available.


Hawaiian Tiger,

I think so too. I have no idea why Triumph factory used the 1955 headstock and stamped the 1957 numbers when the large bearing unit was available as you said. That's why I wanted to know if the frame number is genuine or not. If this frame had been made up by somebody, the frame number should have been 1955 numbers.

There is another unusual frame on another JJ thread(Jon W posted the address here). The frame is the 1956 rigid frame but a big bearing headstock is used. I'm not sure if the frame is factory original or not but it makes sense. 1956 headstock with 1956 serial numbers. It should happen automatically like that.

Thanks,
Machico

#365786 - 03/31/11 1:19 am Re: what year is this frame? [Re: machico]  
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Jon W. Whitley Online content
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Interesting about the "flanged" top frames. I have never even noticed this or was aware of it!

So I checked and my 1953 frame does have the flanged top....my 1947 doesn't.

Regarding the numbers on your frame or more specifically the five digits, 04745, certainly look factory to me.

It is time for you to contact the VMCC in England to get to the bottom of this mystery.

http://www.vmcc.net/


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1970 BSA A65F 650 - Project

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