BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
  JWood Auction  
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Photo posting tutorial

Member Spotlight
Goostrey
Goostrey
San Antonio, TX
Posts: 21
Joined: July 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
203 registered members (57nortonmodel77), 1,622 guests, and 587 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Doug Baril, revans, Gilly, XTINCT, Bruce Roberts
9960 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
btour 184
koan58 99
Stuart 85
NickL 70
Popular Topics(Views)
439,657 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums33
Topics65,299
Posts632,336
Members9,960
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#364420 - 03/23/11 12:41 am A65 oil pressure gauge?  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 724
Rusty Goose Online content
BritBike Forum member
Rusty Goose  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 724
Sacramento California
So as I'm re-assembling my engine, I'm thinking about oil pressure and how tricky it seems it can be with these beasts.

Has anyone installed an oil pressure gauge either permanently or temporarilly? How is it done, any photos?

Rusty


1967 A65 Lightning
1967 Triumph T20 Mountain Cub
1967 Moto Guzzi V7
1969 B44 Victor Special
1966? Royal Enfield Interceptor
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!
Membership Type! Free
Member
Premium
Member
Premium Life
Member
Vendor
Member
Site
Sponsor
Recognition No Premium Member Premium Life member (5 years) Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
Post commercial threads No No No Yes Yes
Custom title No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Upload avatar & photos No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Link avatar & photos Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Private Message Storage: 10 100 100 100 100
Length of signatures 255 600 600 600 600
Removes this very advert island between post 1&2 No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Price Free $12.90/year $105.00 No End
$55.00/5 years
$210.00/year
($17.50/month)
Email
Click on button >>
  Premium Member Premium Life member Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
#364437 - 03/23/11 2:09 am Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,512
Ignoramus Online content
BritBike Forum member
Ignoramus  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,512
Auckland NZ
Rusty ....its real easy on a 70.....i just removed the idiot light sender unit, tig welded a bracket between speedo and tacho mounted a guage there and connected it to threaded hole in case

had it for years takes all the worry out of what the motor is doing ....i look for consistancy rather than pressure eg how long to heat up and presure drop ect...wouldnt be without it.


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#364439 - 03/23/11 2:12 am Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 724
Rusty Goose Online content
BritBike Forum member
Rusty Goose  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 724
Sacramento California
Mine is a '66, its probably a lot more complicated then, huh?


1967 A65 Lightning
1967 Triumph T20 Mountain Cub
1967 Moto Guzzi V7
1969 B44 Victor Special
1966? Royal Enfield Interceptor
#364442 - 03/23/11 2:41 am Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
DMadigan Online content
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
ca, us
Not complicated but requires special parts. There is a cross drilling under the oil pressure relief valve. It is 1/4" but I am not sure what thread, probably fine cycle thread. A small banjo fitting and 1/4" banjo bolt will give you a pressure outlet. Not the best in terms of mechanical durability though. Better to make a longer OPR body and banjo to fit. This way the line is not hanging off the bottom of the motor and it can be pointed in the most convenient direction.

#364533 - 03/23/11 9:35 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,512
Ignoramus Online content
BritBike Forum member
Ignoramus  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,512
Auckland NZ
Rusty:
it is more complex on the eariler ones....pretty sure there was a thread about ways of doing it a while back...i know the search on here isnt great but you may be able to find it?

I THINK RichB spoke about it so maybee look back over his postings if you cant find it with search....there may even be some pics

Sounds like DMadigan has it sussed though but I just cant visualise it not having earlier cases to look at.

But seriously I recon its a real good idea on an A65....just dont panick when you see the PSI reading on hot idol.


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#364557 - 03/24/11 12:45 am Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 792
Richard Phillips Offline
BritBike Forum member
Richard Phillips  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 792
San Luis Obispo, CA
I would be interest to see a picture of the banjo bolt op fitting and the extended opr adapter. Wouldn't it affect the oil pressure system. All my bikes are early
Thank you.

#364585 - 03/24/11 5:57 am Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
DMadigan Online content
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
ca, us
I do not have a picture. I just made a drawing. It would require replacing the OPR valve. You could keep the spring. To fit an AN-03 (JIC) fitting the banjo would have to be about 0.625" thick. Two O-rings would seal the banjo. If one O-ring is on the face of the banjo then it would also seal the OPV threads, eliminating the aluminum washer. The OPV body could be made from 1" stainless hex. It would stick out 1.25" from the case. There would be no effect on the oil system it just allows the pressure to feed into the banjo and to the gauge.

#364616 - 03/24/11 1:01 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: DMadigan]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,956
Rich B Online happy
Rich B  Online Happy



Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,956
Stone Creek OH USA
I'd like to see the drawing myself. BSA twin OPRV's are touchy enough without modifying one. You are talking major redesign/surgery to get pressure external to the OPRV.

The actual "pressure" is below the OPRV, the OPRV threads "seal" the pressure side from the dump side. And on pre 69 engines, that "seal" can be marginal. To do a banjo external that actually reads pressure would be interesting. eek

It is difficult to get an actual pressure reading on an engine without the boss for the switch or the actual drillings. Even on the engine with the drillings (69 on), getting an accurate reading can be dodgy due to variations in the switch cavity drilling. Oil pressure readings don't like tiny orifices for accuracy eek

With care, the cases could be tapped near the OPRV boss, but you are dealing with thin castings and limited amount of useable threads.

But still, I would like to see the drawings.....


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#364654 - 03/24/11 7:57 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
DMadigan Online content
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
ca, us
If you disassemble an OPR valve, there is a piston and spring. The piston is pushed back by the pressure until it opens the side hole, letting the oil flow to the return side of the pump. The piston is not a perfect fit so some oil is always (as long as there is pressure) flowing around the piston directly into the drain hole or to the volume behind the piston. Some oil will also flow around the threads to the drain hole. There is a cutaway in the body wall that bleeds the bypass oil down to the drain hole. If that was not there the piston would be locked.
To feed a banjo, a second hole is added farther out the body from the drain hole to where the banjo will be fit. A groove similar to the one for bleeding the bypass oil from behind the piston is cut from this hole down to the case end of the body. This allows oil pressure to feed into the banjo and to the gauge. It does not need a large flow. The only effect of a small hole is to slow the responce of the gauge. The pressure will be the same once it stabilizes.
The oil flowing past the threads can be fixed by adding an O-ring groove in the engine case with a smooth nose section on the OPRV that engages the O-ring. It would be a good idea to get an extra OPRV and drill a hole in the outer cap then start the engine to see how much leakage there is past the piston.
The Japanese OPRVs do not have the large mesh wire screen. I guess they do not have as much cr*P flowing around in the oil.

#364655 - 03/24/11 8:00 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
DMadigan Online content
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
ca, us
If you disassemble an OPR valve, there is a piston and spring. The piston is pushed back by the pressure until it opens the side hole, letting the oil flow to the return side of the pump. The piston is not a perfect fit so some oil is always (as long as there is pressure) flowing around the piston directly into the drain hole or to the volume behind the piston. Some oil will also flow around the threads to the drain hole. There is a cutaway in the body wall that bleeds the bypass oil down to the drain hole. If that was not there the piston would be locked.
To feed a banjo, a second hole is added farther out the body from the drain hole to where the banjo will be fit. A groove similar to the one for bleeding the bypass oil from behind the piston is cut from this hole down to the case end of the body. This allows oil pressure to feed into the banjo and to the gauge. It does not need a large flow. The only effect of a small hole is to slow the responce of the gauge. The pressure will be the same once it stabilizes.
The oil flowing past the threads can be fixed by adding an O-ring groove in the engine case with a smooth nose section on the OPRV that engages the O-ring. It would be a good idea to get an extra OPRV and drill a hole in the outer cap then start the engine to see how much leakage there is past the piston.
The Japanese OPRVs do not have the large mesh wire screen. I guess they do not have as much cr*P flowing around in the oil.

#364693 - 03/25/11 3:11 am Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Mr Mike Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mr Mike  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Cape Carteret, NC
DM,
I need a sketch to understand your idea. Wuld love to put a permanent guage on my 66. I made a temporary setup out of an old OPRV. I soldered the bleed off holes up and drilled and tapped a 1/8th pipethread in the cap. Works good for a test but with no pressure relief it is not suitable for anything but a test. Even when I test I have to keep the RPM's down and pre warmup the oil so that or the guage will peg at 2000rpms.

I will check mine out tomorrow to see if I can understand your plan.
Mr Mike

#364781 - 03/25/11 3:55 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 792
Richard Phillips Offline
BritBike Forum member
Richard Phillips  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 792
San Luis Obispo, CA
Yes, a sketch or picture would be great.
Thanks
Richard

#364836 - 03/25/11 8:02 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
DMadigan Online content
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
ca, us
Here is a quick sketch. I would not do it this way if I spent the time making a new OPRV only because the fit of the piston is the only thing that controls the leakage past the valve.

#364837 - 03/25/11 8:07 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: DMadigan]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,956
Rich B Online happy
Rich B  Online Happy



Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,956
Stone Creek OH USA
Your grooves are going to allow oil out past the piston and to the sump return. You would read sump pressure eek

The land machined about half way up the threads is the return to sump. Since your piston grooves extend past that point, your oil would vent to the sump. In addition, you would be bleeding precious oil from the supply side of the pump that is desperately needed by the bearings.


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#364850 - 03/25/11 8:52 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
DMadigan Online content
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
ca, us
No, you are not reading the diagram correctly. What you probably cannot see is the piston extends up beyond the banjo hole sealing the spring side of the piston approximately where I drew the end of the spring. This is exactly the same as how the original side port is sealed. This is also why I mentioned that I would not make it this way if building a new OPRV. The groove on the banjo port is only from the front of the valve to the port.
Gauges do not flow oil, they read pressure. They all require some displacement and therefore oil but this is a very small amount and is returned to the oil system (pressure side) when the pressure drops.
There is no oil pressure in the sump.
If you took the guts out of the four stroke single cylinder dirt bike oil pumps, you would have plenty of oil pressure and volume.

#364862 - 03/25/11 9:52 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,512
Ignoramus Online content
BritBike Forum member
Ignoramus  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,512
Auckland NZ
DMadigan...said
"What you probably cannot see is the piston extends up beyond the banjo hole sealing the spring side of the piston approximately where I drew the end of the spring. This is exactly the same as how the original side port is sealed. This is also why I mentioned that I would not make it this way if building a new OPRV. The groove on the banjo port is only from the front of the valve to the port."

I can see how your concept works for sure....the only problem (that no doubt you have seen) is that you would need a very well sealed spring end of the piston "skirt" to bore so it couldnt leak past the grooves to the spring side or you would have equal pressure on piston end and spring end which would stop the piston moving at over pressure.

clever concept...

Last edited by Ignoramus; 03/25/11 9:56 pm.

"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#364874 - 03/25/11 11:44 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
DMadigan Online content
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
ca, us
You really should disassemble an OPRV and look at it. There IS a groove from the spring side of the piston down the side to the dump port. This is what keeps pressure from building on the back side of the piston. All I did was to add a groove from the pressure side of the piston to the new banjo port on the opposite side and extend the piston so the skirt seals off the banjo port the same way the original dump port is sealed on the stock OPRV.
The leak past the piston is a function of the fit and any scoring in the piston/body wall. This is the Jos. Lucas of the OPRV. The piston should have a seal that prevents flow past the piston until the port is opened.

#364887 - 03/26/11 12:56 am Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,512
Ignoramus Online content
BritBike Forum member
Ignoramus  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,512
Auckland NZ
"The piston should have a seal that prevents flow past the piston until the port is opened."

thats what I was meaning.


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#365048 - 03/26/11 11:36 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Mr Mike Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mr Mike  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Cape Carteret, NC
DM,
I understand your concept. It is a little complicated making for some good machine shop work. There is also a plugged drilling underneath that connects to the pressure side, but the plug is right above the downtube frame member and not easily accessed without removing the engine. There is no clearance there for any fitting. There is also another plugged drilling on a boss right above the tab that mounts the muffler but I am not sure where than goes. This plug is also difficult to access.

I think rather than modify that OPRV I would during a rebuild look for a good place to drill and tap a port directly into the pressure side passage.

While I was looking at the OPRV to understand your sketch I installed my test setup. I had about 45-50 psi at idle (about 1300 rpms) after running for about 20-25 minutes. BTW what oil temp do you think these motors operate at? I idled my bike for about 20-25 minutes. The top was spitting hot but the oil never reached 130 degrees. Probably takes an hour run to get the oil temp up.

Mr Mike

#365057 - 03/27/11 1:33 am Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
DMadigan Online content
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
ca, us
The drilling behind the OPRV is for the feed line to the pump. I have not measured the oil temperature, so no help there. So little oil is fed to the top end, it is more the temperature rise in the plain bearings that matters.
I am using an early case in order to fit a three phase generator so I will need one of these OPRVs myself. If others are interested I will have the local CNC shop make a batch. I will make them with O-ring seals on the piston to eliminate the bleed past the piston. I prefer AN-03 fittings for braided line but if some wants to use a standard switch the banjo could have an 1/8 pipe straight hole.
I noticed a drilling difference for the OPRV drain hole in the case. On the earlier 5/16" stud case the hole was steep, down to the sump pick-up drilling. The later 3/8" stud case they added metal between the OPRV boss and the boss for the sump cross drilling and made the OPRV drain hole intersect that hole at a shallower angle. It does not affect the OPRV design, just moves the drain hole farther from the pressure end.

#365073 - 03/27/11 3:29 am Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Mr Mike Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mr Mike  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Cape Carteret, NC
DM,
Let me know details when have them. I like the idea of a pressure gauge on plain bearing motors.

Mr Mike

#365108 - 03/27/11 12:10 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Mr Mike Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mr Mike  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Cape Carteret, NC
DM,As I thought about your proposal I have some thoughts/concerns. You propose to make a new extended piston with an circumferential "o" ring groove to seal the spring side of the piston from the pressure side. I assume you will eliminate the lateral goove in the ORPV body that currently functions to prevent pressure equalization on both sides of the piston. You'll need your added grove to allow pressurized oil to reach your gauge, but it will only extend to the gauge port. You wouldn't want the "o ring sliding over the groove. If you eliminate that groove, then when the "O" ring fails won't you reach pressure equalization on both sides...just what that groove is designed to prevent? If you connect the spring side cavity to the dump port you will have a situation that allows oil pressure to go to "zero" if the "o" ring fails????

Have I got the concept right? I think a strategically placed drilling into the pressure side drilling is the safest way to go or as an alternative idea just plug the dump port in the ORPV cavity completely and install an external pressure relief directly to the tank from a tee int he gauge line. This would eliminate the worry over whether the current OPRV is causing loss of oil pressure.
Mr Mike

#365151 - 03/27/11 4:11 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
DMadigan Online content
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,517
ca, us
The O-ring design does not have either groove in the OPRV body and the sealing ring for the piston face does not move across the dump hole. That could cause the O-ring to be cut by the edge of the hole although a shallow groove could be used so the O-ring does not contact the body at the hole. Instead, the piston has two drillings, one from the pressure face and one from the spring face with cross holes so the pressure feeds the banjo port and the spring feeds the dump port. The O-ring sealing the face of the piston is only in compression against the stop so there is no wear. If the O-ring were to fail then the gauge would show it. The spring side of the piston has to connect to the dump port, not just for leakage past the piston but when the piston closes the dump hole, air/oil has to be drawn in from the dump port to fill the volume. Otherwise the vacuum would prevent the piston from moving forward.
If you route the spring side of the piston to the external case drilling for the sump you have a vulnerable oil line hanging off the side of the motor. Plus, you still have to have the piston open a port to the spring side to relieve the over pressure and seal it again.
The original piston relies on the fit to the body for sealing. From the face of the piston to the dump hole it is about 1/4" long. The main bush has a clearance of 0.0015"-0.003" and the rods are about the same and both have a longer distance from the feed hole to the edge. You know how much the oil pressure drops with only a little wear in these bearings so leakage is a major factor in maintaining pressure. If you eliminate the leakage at the OPRV then the pressure will increase at idle.

#365324 - 03/28/11 12:14 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: DMadigan]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Mr Mike Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mr Mike  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Cape Carteret, NC
I understand. It gets complicated pretty fast for what is a seemingly a simple problem. All I know is when I plug the holes in an OPRV I have excellent oil pressure on a recently rebuilt ( 8 to 10k miles ago) bottom end. Only leakage possible is thru those threads...howvever I have no way of measuring pressure once I put the functioning OPRV back in. Some one with a 70 or later cases can test this because the have a port to measure pressure. I know some suspect oil pressure and volume losses at the OPRV but I for sure have no idea what it might be or how much of a concern it should be.

Mr Mike

#365374 - 03/28/11 5:30 pm Re: A65 oil pressure gauge? [Re: Rusty Goose]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
Why not simply weld up a thick enough port to tap into the case?I've never looked at the earlier system but it should be possible and likely simpler/easier than all that reengineering .

FWIW-BONZO

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.601s Queries: 16 (0.096s) Memory: 1.0012 MB (Peak: 1.3573 MB) Zlib disabled. Server Time: 2017-11-24 10:56:44 UTC