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#351982 - 01/08/11 10:35 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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dieseline and vinegar mixed and let sit for a week..the vineger seeps down and the diesel follows it


1970 tr6r dryframe
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#352124 - 01/09/11 1:49 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Well, I went back over to the shop today...still being patient with the engine. Still treating it with marvel mystery and pb blaster. But good news. I pulled hard on the clutch and managed to get the gears to shift...at least into first and neutral, that is. The rear wheel moves and the chain seems to be running through the primary fine. However, it is just neutral so that doesn't really say much yet. But, the bike being able to roll is a huge plus and the fact that the clutch is engaging (at least enough to be able to change the gear back and forth) is also a good sign in my eyes...

I am holding off most of the major repair work (like opening the primary and everything that follows that) until I move into my new place in the beginning of February, so that should give the engine and cases that I filled with the marvel a good chance to soak...


@eab_katrina (Instagram build page)

1977 Triumph Tiger TR7 (in progress...for years now...)
#352125 - 01/09/11 1:56 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Also, nobody really mentioned kick starter fixes. I am wondering about it because I really gave it a good effort today but it is stuck. I am a big guy, too...it should move if it can. If I can get it moving, it's possible I might get the pistons moving...or is the kick starter not moving a sign that the pistons are stuck? If that isn't the case (although thinking about it now, that seems to make sense), what might I try to get the kick starter at least able to kick, if not kick the bike over...I am just thinking best case scenario. I have inspected the best I could (looking in the hole where the spark plugs were) and it seems like the insides are nice and clean. I was thinking about sticking a tiny webcam in there with the case removed to see what I could see, but the bike seems to be in WAAAYY better shape than originally thought. The brown stain on the sign was actually mud, not battery acid, the tank looks like it was painted yesterday and has very little rust inside (didn't sit with gasoline in it at all...), the oil tank appears clean, but you can't see much in the opening on the backbone. I get more surprised by the condition with each piece I remove. It is now a frame, engine and tranny and wheels...I will have to take some more pictures but I keep forgetting my camera when I go there.


@eab_katrina (Instagram build page)

1977 Triumph Tiger TR7 (in progress...for years now...)
#352130 - 01/09/11 2:25 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Colorado
Patience 8bears... the "I am a big guy, too...it should move if it can." approach is gonna break something.
You might add a little Acetone to the Marvel. Shoot for about a 50/50 mix. Let it soak. Days. Some one in a previous post told ya to use the rear wheel in gear to bump on the engine. Gently. It could take hours of bumping back and forth. If it don't work wait a day and try again. repeat.

#352135 - 01/09/11 3:43 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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should I do it with the clutch pulled in?


@eab_katrina (Instagram build page)

1977 Triumph Tiger TR7 (in progress...for years now...)
#352145 - 01/09/11 4:23 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Originally Posted By: eightangrybears
should I do it with the clutch pulled in?


No. Leave clutch engaged and gearbox in gear...

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#352147 - 01/09/11 4:30 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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"Also, nobody really mentioned kick starter fixes. I am wondering about it because I really gave it a good effort today but it is stuck. "

The motor is probably holding the kick starter up. The kick start lever turns the motor through the gearbox and clutch. If you pull and hold the clutch in you should be able to move the kick start lever but only if the clutch plates aren't stuck together. Trust me, the clutch plates are stuck together. One way to break them free is to put the bike in gear and roll it back and forth while holding in the clutch lever. 1 of 3 things will happen: you will get the clutch plates freed up and the bike will roll around in gear with the clutch lever pulled in or the plates will be so stuck that the motor breaks free and turns or you could damage the clutch plates/clutch basket/clutch center.

I would just let it soak for now and forget about the kick start lever until the motor is free. If you just can't leave it alone then try to break the clutch plates free and see if you don't get your kick starter to move.

BTW when trying to get the gearbox to work with the motor off you need to turn the gearbox sprocket. You may just get 2nd through 5th if you turn the back wheel while working the gearchange lever.

Scott

#352148 - 01/09/11 4:41 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Colorado
Sorry if this sounds a bit blunt 8bears. But just stop and think. What is the purpose of a clutch between an engine and a rear wheel? If you can't figure that out maybe you need to enlist some local help with the mechanical portion of this project.
Your goal is to introduce a bit of vibration into the cylinders using the wheel as a source of "bump" back and forth. That may help the solvents penetrate into the crud.

#352169 - 01/09/11 9:12 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Well, that would have sounded a bit blunt if the two posts prior weren't exactly how they are...one says pull clutch lever, the other don't. The reason I asked is because everyone seems to know these "tricks" on how to fix some of the common issues with these older bikes, not to try and get a mechanics 101 on clutches. I don't want to seem all defensive about it, but I know enough about motorcycles to accomplish this job and I am bullheaded enough to finish no matter what...


@eab_katrina (Instagram build page)

1977 Triumph Tiger TR7 (in progress...for years now...)
#352172 - 01/09/11 9:39 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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You need the clutch engaged to use the kickstarter to attempt to move the pistons, what Scott was saying is that if the clutch is stuck itself you need to pull the lever and then by kicking the clutch plates will free (if not you will need to strip the clutch). When you then release the lever any kicking will again try to move the pistons

#352175 - 01/09/11 10:50 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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eab -

Apologies....this thread is trying to tackle so many aspects of freeing things, I still thought we were still discussing freeing the *engine*.

As an aside, when I rebuilt my top-end last year, I found it useful to start new threads on different aspects of the job...kept things simpler and people didn't need to read through 50 posts to figure out what I was asking....

Just a suggestion! wink

Cheers,

Steve

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#352200 - 01/09/11 2:03 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Yeah, I may end up doing that JP. This one is getting long, even for me to look through, which I have done quite a few times. Thanks for all the suggestions and help from everyone, though...


@eab_katrina (Instagram build page)

1977 Triumph Tiger TR7 (in progress...for years now...)
#352205 - 01/09/11 3:18 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Sorry for the confusion. I was just addressing the stuck kick start lever. If your goal is to free the motor then do not pull the clutch in and hold it. If your goal is to see if your kickstart mechanism works properly then free the clutch plates as in my post.

Scott

#352216 - 01/09/11 4:11 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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That's interesting... "Well, that would have sounded a bit blunt if the two posts prior weren't exactly how they are". Those two posts weren't on my screen when I posted. Anyhow, they explain it better than I can and I'm not so worried now. I apologize and will try to refrain from making judgments in the future and just present my 2c. I just freed a frozen engine this past week by bumping it gently. It took a lot of time, but I didn't want to break anything. So you had me scared.

#352254 - 01/09/11 7:25 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Yeah, in my hasty approach to everything (including posting) I didn't mention all of the details maybe. I went back over to the shop again just now and wanted to drain the primary case and to do the 50/50 mix of acetone and marvel mystery oil. I put it in both the spark plug wells and the emptied out primary case (when I opened the drain plug water did come out, but not a whole lot. I undid the filler cap ((the one that required a giant slotted screwdriver to open)) and shot some compressed air in to finish emptying the case). I then poured my mix in there too. I may have just put too much mix in, but some was spilling out through the shifter lever hole until it stopped (assumingly because it was no longer full enough to spill out behind the shifter). Is my assumption right here or is there a gasket on the other side of the shift lever that may need to be replaced if it is leaking fluid?

I brought my camera to the shop again, but the battery died after about 5 pics. I am charging it again to go back later and get some better shots of the bike (with a tripod, so it isn't all washed out with flash)...


@eab_katrina (Instagram build page)

1977 Triumph Tiger TR7 (in progress...for years now...)
#352261 - 01/09/11 7:53 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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There is an o-ring on the shifter shaft. When the primary is filled to the correct level the oil will be no where near high enough to leak out of the shifter shaft.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
#352286 - 01/09/11 9:33 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Hi EABears,

With all the soaking, you may be creating a condition of hydraulic lock. Take care to drain the sump, and primary before you try and force things.

I remember when I put my 71 T120 back in service, I had soaked it for the longest time, but still could not get it free to move with the kick starter. In frustration, and a bit of anger, I pushed it up a hill with the intention of letting the hill turn it over. Unintentionally, it started to roll backwards. It was the backwards force that caused it to free up. It was leaned over quite a bit too at the time. The MM oil came out the exhaust pipes at that point.

I do not know why this worked. It may have just been the part of the cycle that the engine had been stopped in. And it was just easier to spin backwards rather than forwards.

Good Luck.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#352287 - 01/09/11 9:50 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Don't know if you have heard of Kroil.In my opinion it works really good.Especially if you can let it soak for a while.Think just plain old diesel fuel works good on stuck engines.Everybody has there own ideas.I would think the acetone would break down the Marvels.Think you should pull the primary and see if the tranny is free.You are going to have to do it anyway.Plus if you can get the bike in high gear rocking the wheel would be easier on the kickstarter.

#352317 - 01/10/11 1:22 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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If you put more than 350ml (a little less than a beer can) of oil into the chaincase,it won't stay there.
Whatever excess oil didn't seep out at the gearshift shaft will find its way to the crankcase,where it won't presently cause any harm.There are 3 small level-holes in the chaincase to allow the oil to return to the crankcase. So you now have penetrating oil below the clutch,covering part of the bottom run of the primary chain.
If the engine won't turn,the kick-starter won't turn as long as the clutch is engaged.The clutch plates are most likely stuck together and won't disengage just by pulling the clutch lever.
If you tie the clutch lever back to the handlebar for about a week it might help.You'd still probably need to put the bike in top gear and seriously rock it backward and forward.
When all else fails to free clutch plates,I just go for a ride with the clutch lever held in to the handlebar.After a mile or so of throttle on/throttle off they release.

#352402 - 01/10/11 5:41 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Hi Pete R.

Good advice.

Originally Posted By: Pete R
If the engine won't turn,the kick-starter won't turn as long as the clutch is engaged.The clutch plates are most likely stuck together and won't disengage just by pulling the clutch lever.


Of course. What was I thinking. He can not push it up a grade if the clutch plates are stuck together. First they need to be freed up.

Originally Posted By: Pete R
If you tie the clutch lever back to the handlebar for about a week it might help.


This worked for me. It was the first advice I got when I first joined this forum. One might want to check that the clutch actuator mechanism is working. Spray up the ramp. Maybe pull out the rod and clean and lube it?

Originally Posted By: Pete R
There are 3 small level-holes in the chaincase to allow the oil to return to the crankcase.


That is what I was concerned about. That he would end up with a wet sump, not a dry one, and lock the engine with fluid.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#352450 - 01/10/11 11:55 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Well, I think I have come to the conclusion that instead of attempting to get it to roll over, I am just going to tear it down...completely. I want to anyways and trying to rush or force something like this could end up with worse problems (it sounds like) which would end up taking longer overall to fix anyways. I move to my new garage (with some actual space to work...you can see from the pictures that I don't have a whole lot of room currently) in 3 weeks so I am just going to let it soak until then. I have removed basically everything I don't want to keep on the bike and am going to throw it all in a bin and take it all home and clean it all...maybe keep it, maybe sell it?

Once I get it to its new home it's time to tear it down. Everything. I really want to do this right all the way from the bottom to the top and have the time and space to do it soon. It is a little sad because a buddy of mine bought the guy's other bike...a 1971 BSA Thunderbolt...basically the same bike (although it is right side drive and some other odds and ends...two carbs...), same place, same riding amount before the flood. He just picked it up and brought it to his shop (where mine is) and started cleaning it. He sprayed in the engine block with what he calls "Gunk" but it had a name, just can't remember it. He called me last night and says he kicked his over. After about 5 minutes of trying, it kicked down and turned the engine over. UGGGGHHHHH...not that he is all that much better off because he has all sorts of other issues to deal with, but it kinda sucked to hear his turned over after 2 hours of having it...

Anyways, I am looking forward to the total rebuild of this bike, which I have dubbed "The Baroness." A little lame, but it fits her heritage and it rolls of the tongue.

I am having a hard time keeping my hands off of it, but I am wondering what might be good to work on knowing I am going to have to move the whole thing in 3 weeks? Rebuilding the front suspension maybe? I want to be able to roll it onto my truck when I move so it would have to be able to be finished in 3 weeks of evenings after work. I also don't want to have the engine, tranny, etc. all in pieces when I do that...


@eab_katrina (Instagram build page)

1977 Triumph Tiger TR7 (in progress...for years now...)
#352452 - 01/10/11 11:56 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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With my recent overfill of MM oil, is there something I should empty? I forgot to ask that. Should I leave it until I take everything apart or should I suck/drain it out of there?


@eab_katrina (Instagram build page)

1977 Triumph Tiger TR7 (in progress...for years now...)
#352463 - 01/11/11 1:21 am Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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The excess penetrating oil isn't causing any problem.You don't need to drain it until the engine begins to turn.
Don't be impatient or you'll end up doing it the hard (and expensive) way.
How much water came out when you drained the crankcase?How much water came out of the gearbox? How far from TDC are the pistons?
Which cylinder has its valves closed?How much water did you manage to suck out of the other cylinder?

#352603 - 01/11/11 9:38 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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Me personally think it would be easier to try to free the motor while in the bike.Like Peter said be patient.

#352621 - 01/11/11 11:19 pm Re: 77 Bonneville proj FROZEN Engine. Where to start? [Re: eightangrybears]  
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eightangrybears,

Pete and Jays offer sound advice IMHO. If you don't free the pistons before you take it apart, how can you get the cylinders off during tear down?

If the pistons are currently at TDC or BDC (or close to it) and you "beat" on the pistons (after taking the cylinder head off) the connecting rods and crank will take all the force axially rather than rotating (which would free the pistons). Ideally the pistons would need to be halfway between TDC and BDC for this to work best.

If I were doing this project I would keep "rocking" the bike (while in gear) to see if the pistons will free up. Also, as I mentioned previously, you may consider using a small propane torch to gently heat the cylinders. They will expand and thus may reduce the effort required to break the pistons free.

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