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#336857 - 10/06/10 12:09 am Trying to cure wet sumping
bmwr90s Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 548
Loc: New York
Well the Atlas was running perfect, I couldn't leave well enough alone. I decided to put an end to the wet sumping problem. Simple matter of cutting a grove in the drive gear shaft and putting on an O-ring.

Oil Pump comes apart easy enough.



Drive gear comes off but then the woodruff key would not come out of the slot. No way, no how.



I'm lucky to have a good friend who's a tool and die maker. So I handed it over to him. He had to mill out the center of the woodruff key in order to crush it into itself.

Success at last.


I'll put everything back together tomorrow and hope it was worth the effort.



_________________________
1969 XLH
1970 TR25W
1973 Norton Commando
1974 R90S
1991 FLHTC W/SIDECAR

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#336909 - 10/06/10 11:46 am Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
Dave Comeau Online   content



Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 1123
Loc: Hamilton, Mass. USA
I'm afraid you are deluding yourself if you think what you are doing will "STOP" wet sumping.

Minimize is the key word here.

To review what has already been discussed on this forum.
I will retype this since it does not come up on "search"....in less than 3 years past. I KNOW I have done this before but the older files have been purged to clear up forum hard drive space.

There are four (4) paths for wetsumping.

1. (feed side) Clearance between the sides of the gears and the brass plate...The most commonly discussed since it can be addressed by fettling out some of the wear


2. The clearance between the tips of the gear teeth and the body.

3. Clearance between the two sets of gear teeth themselves

1 & 2 & 3 are addressed by the MKIII style pump output spring valve or the Nortech-AMR mod. this is supposed to prevent passing oil through to the rod bearings/crank interface then out into the sump. No question that reliability of this mod is spotty(refering to the MKIII MOD not Nortech's). The theory is good.

4. Cross cavity through the PAIR of shafts drive and idler from feed into the scavenge back down to the sump. (Did you o-ring both?)

5. putting the crank "up" is a joke.
I have some supporting data done during the oil pump research project that is now on hold until after I finish moving into my new (to me) shop....
2c







Edited by Dave Comeau (12/15/10 5:24 pm)
_________________________
dynodave
52 Norton model 7, 61 BSA Gold Flash, 63 BSA SR, 63 BSA RGS, 63 Atlas, 66 Atlas, 68 Dunstall Atlas, 68 T100R, 72 Combat, 75 E-Start, 87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer, 92 Ducati 907ie, 02 Ducati MS4,

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#336935 - 10/06/10 2:52 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
bmwr90s Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 548
Loc: New York
I should have said "try" to put an end to wet sumping. I'm learning on the fly. If I let the bike sit for 5 days I drain a quart of oil from the crankcase. I know that just putting in an 0-ring won't cure that.

Dave, I did not 0-ring the idler shaft but the pump is still in pieces so it's not a problem to do it. If the oil makes its way past the idler shaft doesn't the 0-ring on the drive shaft keep the oil out of the timing cavity? I guess I don't completely understand the route the oil takes from the oil tank and back again. I thought that the only thing the o-ring on the drive shaft did was keep the oil from entering the timing side cavity. Even if it does make its way past the drive shaft 0-ring into the cavity how does it make its way into the sump?

You can see in the 1st photo the brass plate shows wear. That could be milled off easy enough. I could see how that could effect the oil pressure but how does it effect wet sumping?

Please excuse my ignorance on this subject.
_________________________
1969 XLH
1970 TR25W
1973 Norton Commando
1974 R90S
1991 FLHTC W/SIDECAR

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#336942 - 10/06/10 3:25 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
Dave Comeau Online   content



Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 1123
Loc: Hamilton, Mass. USA
The o-ring keeps the oil out of the scavenge side of the pump which has a timing side casting passage direct to the sump. crazy
It could possibly also leak out the pumps shaft behind the driven gear.
The final result is still the same....


1 & 2 & 3 are addressed by the MKIII style pump output spring valve or the Nortech-AMR mod. this is supposed to prevent passing oil through to the rod bearings/crank interface then out into the sump.


Edited by Dave Comeau (10/06/10 3:27 pm)
_________________________
dynodave
52 Norton model 7, 61 BSA Gold Flash, 63 BSA SR, 63 BSA RGS, 63 Atlas, 66 Atlas, 68 Dunstall Atlas, 68 T100R, 72 Combat, 75 E-Start, 87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer, 92 Ducati 907ie, 02 Ducati MS4,

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#337039 - 10/07/10 7:37 am Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: ]
steverat Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/04/10
Posts: 115
Loc: Bath, UK
Hope you wont regard this as flippant. I see many Norton singles here in England with a shut off valve in the oil feed line. That certainly cures it, though of course you take a risk if there is a memory failure, however brief!!

Another certain cure is to put a spring loaded valve in the feed line. Bri-Tie Motorcycles in Carmarthen make a good one which I have used with 100% effect on BSA singles.

Steve
_________________________
1924 SS80
1953 18S
2011 CB1300S

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#337174 - 10/07/10 11:17 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: steverat]
John schmidt Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/29/10
Posts: 12
Loc: New Mexico
For 15 years I had a simple on/off lever valve in the oil line from the tank to the timing chest.
Turn in on and off when done riding. Simple. No sumping, well
at least nothing could get past the valve.

Recently installed a Colorado Norton Works spring loaded one way valve in the oil line. Much easier now, no need to remember to
turn it on or off.

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#338550 - 10/16/10 11:13 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
motofea Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 06/01/10
Posts: 8
Loc: oxapampa-pasco-peru
i have a norton 88,, the problem is that the oil goes down to the crankcase, it could be a problem in the oil pump? a valve in the oil line would be the solution?
thanks.

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#338584 - 10/17/10 11:51 am Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
bmwr90s Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 548
Loc: New York
Well, after reassembly of the oil pump and letting the bike sit for 5 days I can say the results really don't warrant all the work. The wet sumping decreased from about 1 quart to just over 1/2 quart. It slowed the oil leak down to the point that it will just take a little longer to fill up the crankcase.

I ordered the anti wet sump valve from Colorado Norton Works. I read most of the pros and cons of automatic valves so I'm aware of the possible consequences. I was considering putting in a manual on/off valve but, the older I get the more senior moments I have. I'm sure at some point I would forget to turn on the valve.
_________________________
1969 XLH
1970 TR25W
1973 Norton Commando
1974 R90S
1991 FLHTC W/SIDECAR

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#338602 - 10/17/10 1:48 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: ]
bmwr90s Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 548
Loc: New York
I know I appear to be anal about this but, to me it's like an itch I have to scratch. It really is no big deal to drain the sump when necessary and I probably should leave well enough alone but, again, it's that itch....
_________________________
1969 XLH
1970 TR25W
1973 Norton Commando
1974 R90S
1991 FLHTC W/SIDECAR

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#338900 - 10/19/10 2:07 am Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
DogT Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 98
Loc: Hume, Virginia, USA
When I had my 69S running back in the 70's and 80's, I never knew about wet sumping. I just started it and went for a ride, and it may have been weeks or months between rides. I guess that is why the oil was dripping out of the oil tank breather in the front of the oil tank and dripping down on to the gearbox. It never seemed to bother anything other than oiling the bottom of the bike and I didn't need the chain oiler. I'm thinking now that I have it restored, I'll take more care and either put in a check valve or ball valve with some sort of warning device. I started it Monday for the first time in 20 years, and the oil was up to the top F mark and now it is down to the L mark, which I think is nearly a quart, and the oil pump is tight, I made sure of that.

Dave
69S
_________________________
Dave
69S

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#341760 - 11/06/10 10:34 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: DogT]
acotrel Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 43
Loc: australia
Wouldn't it be easier to include a cock with a switch into the feed pipe, and use the switch to cut the ignition circuit off when the cock is closed?
_________________________
AC

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#342245 - 11/09/10 2:46 am Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: DogT]
ewgoforth Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 34
Originally Posted By: 69commando
When I had my 69S running back in the 70's and 80's, I never knew about wet sumping. I just started it and went for a ride, and it may have been weeks or months between rides. I guess that is why the oil was dripping out of the oil tank breather in the front of the oil tank and dripping down on to the gearbox. It never seemed to bother anything other than oiling the bottom of the bike and I didn't need the chain oiler. I'm thinking now that I have it restored, I'll take more care and either put in a check valve or ball valve with some sort of warning device. I started it Monday for the first time in 20 years, and the oil was up to the top F mark and now it is down to the L mark, which I think is nearly a quart, and the oil pump is tight, I made sure of that.

Dave
69S


On my dipstick, the difference between the F and L marks is about 1 pint. A friend of mine has a dipstick that's about 1/2 of that. The F mark on his is lower than mine.

-Eric

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#342483 - 11/10/10 2:22 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
Dave Culgan Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 15
Loc: Southeast Pennsylvania
Can anyone supply a manufacturer's part number for a manual valve that they are happy with? I'm thinking a compact ball valve with lever actuator and integral hose barbs to keep the length down. I used one for years, but it was a bit on the long side with separate hose barbs screwed on. Don't care for any warnings about memory, seems there are two schools of thought on this
D. Culgan
'66 Atlas

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#342699 - 11/11/10 2:24 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
DogT Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 98
Loc: Hume, Virginia, USA
Here's the one I'm going to use. It is a PEX fitting (Quest) and fits the 3/8" hose just fine. It was purchased from Abuchon Hardware and should be about $12. The handle is aluminum, and you can either put a micro-switch on the hose or one guy (geo46er) on another forum made a switch by filing off the paint on the bottom and using the hose clamp excess as the contacts.



Dave
69S

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#342869 - 11/12/10 1:20 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: DogT]
Dave Culgan Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 15
Loc: Southeast Pennsylvania
Thanks, that looks like a good one to use. I see the same company has a couple of different actuators. I'm thinking the large handle one might be good at blocking off a strategically mounted ignition switch.

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#342977 - 11/12/10 11:35 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
HawaiianTiger Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 06/25/07
Posts: 3574
Loc: Maui Hawaii
These guys did a great job for me. My Commando is a "normal" bike now, I mean just like every other bike in the world that doesn't wet sump.
http://www.amr-of-tucson.com/nortech.html
_________________________
Bikes
1974 Commando
1980 KZ550
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers)

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#348151 - 12/15/10 4:59 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: HawaiianTiger]
MexicoMike Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 609
Loc: Mexico City, Mexico
I'm not sure from reading the literature...Does this "fix" install a check valve on the inlet side or the outlet side of the pump?

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#348172 - 12/15/10 7:00 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: MexicoMike]
bill50cal Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 466
Loc: orlando fla/ shady valley Tn
Originally Posted By: MexicoMike
I'm not sure from reading the literature...Does this "fix" install a check valve on the inlet side or the outlet side of the pump?


outlet side.
_________________________
windy
72 combat
switchbackcreek.com

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#348255 - 12/16/10 5:50 am Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
Tobin Peever Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 193
Loc: Pullman, Washington, USA
Part of owning a Norton is draining the sump prior to a ride. If you have been so inconsiderate as to have left your bike unridden for the previous week, you will have oil in the crankcase. Seriously, I really don't get why wet sumping is such a big deal. Got into it with Matt Rambow on anther forum as I basically accused him of selling dangerous parts (one way valves that don't always work) to address the non-existent wet sumping problem. NO way I am risking blowing up my engine just so I don't have to drain the sump prior to a ride! My Triumphs don't seem to wet sump much but my Norton twins and single do and my Matchless G12 twin does. Just a fact of life for me!
_________________________
47 Norton ES2
61 Norton Dominator 88
67 Triumph TR6C
68 Moto Guzzi V700
74 Norton Commando
08 Moto Guzzi 1200 Sport

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#348297 - 12/16/10 1:38 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: Tobin Peever]
bill50cal Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 466
Loc: orlando fla/ shady valley Tn
Originally Posted By: Tobin Peever

Got into it with Matt Rambow on anther forum as I basically accused him of selling dangerous parts (one way valves that don't always work) to address the non-existent wet sumping problem. NO way I am risking blowing up my engine just so I don't have to drain the sump prior to a ride!


I to got into it with mat on this questionable fix on another forum.I also told him he can keep his barnett clutch.I have been in the auto repair business for 35+ years and you NEVER put a restriction on the suction side of an oil pump.I would not call it a NON EXISTENT problem as it can be real but reason to ride it more often cool the better PARTIAL fix is the AMR mod
_________________________
windy
72 combat
switchbackcreek.com

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#349205 - 12/21/10 11:13 am Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bill50cal]
iansoady Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 14
Loc: Birmingham UK
Originally Posted By: bill50cal


I to got into it with mat on this questionable fix on another forum.I also told him he can keep his barnett clutch.I have been in the auto repair business for 35+ years and you NEVER put a restriction on the suction side of an oil pump.


Well....

Norton actually did that on the Mark 3 and of course Velocette put a non-return ball valve on all the Viper / Venom models. I've never heard of a failure attributable to these EXCEPT when the oil line beneath the valve wasn't filled before assembling.

I had a ball valve on my Commando for 10 years or so with absolutely no problems.
_________________________
Ian.

1966 Triumph 5TA
2005 Suzuki DL650

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#349210 - 12/21/10 11:57 am Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: iansoady]
bill50cal Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 466
Loc: orlando fla/ shady valley Tn
Originally Posted By: iansoady


Well....

Norton actually did that on the Mark 3 and of course Velocette put a non-return ball valve on all the Viper / Venom models. I've never heard of a failure attributable to these EXCEPT when the oil line beneath the valve wasn't filled before assembling.

I had a ball valve on my Commando for 10 years or so with absolutely no problems.


you better go look again at another MK 3 as Norton must know something about BASIC hydraulics because there check valve IS ON THE OUTPUT SIDE.as to losing a motor because of them I have a friend that I help with his bikes and he lost a motor and talked to Jim com stock and he almost lost one had it not been for an oil pressure gauge. both scenarios were the same. rode it till it was up to temp, stopped for a short break , restarted and one lost a motor and Jim caught his.thinking is the oil pump lost its prime ( and all it take's is one small air pocket ) where as if it had sat over a lot longer period it will regain it's prime.

as far as velocett doing it I don't know anything about them and don't care about them doing it, as it is like a lot of British bikes, can we find a cheap fix instead of re engineering it. just why do you think every one of them went out of business? the last three ( Norton Triumph BSA ) pushed a 1935 design way past where it should of been instead scraping it. don't get me wrong I like my old Brit iron BUT bikes like the 4 cyl honda was the death nail to these antique's
_________________________
windy
72 combat
switchbackcreek.com

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#350427 - 12/30/10 12:58 am Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
bmwr90s Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 548
Loc: New York
Here's how Leno handled it. Click on the picture.


_________________________
1969 XLH
1970 TR25W
1973 Norton Commando
1974 R90S
1991 FLHTC W/SIDECAR

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#352885 - 01/13/11 8:48 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: bmwr90s]
Fullauto Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 171
Loc: Perth Western Australia
And the problem with Barnett clutch plates is? I've had a set in my 850 for probably 15,000 miles now with not one issue. You certainly don't have to free the plates each time you start the bike and oil contamination doesn't bother them. The weight advantage is another plus.
I certainly haven't known Matt to sell anything that wasn't an improvement on stock.

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#352901 - 01/13/11 10:47 pm Re: Trying to cure wet sumping [Re: Fullauto]
bill50cal Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 466
Loc: orlando fla/ shady valley Tn
one of my issue's is the soft aluminum core which allows rapid wear on the spline. I run 5 surflex plates in belt drive dry primary so weight is also not an issue like the over weight bronze plates.I preffer the surflex over all the clutch plate's I have tryed.


Edited by bill50cal (01/14/11 12:38 am)
_________________________
windy
72 combat
switchbackcreek.com

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