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backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild #330566
08/29/10 5:28 pm
08/29/10 5:28 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 75
Denmark
T
Troels Mygind Offline OP
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Troels Mygind  Offline OP
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Denmark
Totally rebuilded engine.
Have Boyer Micro and Pazon IC12 dubble coil on T110 with Morgo 750 kit and new 932 carb.
Try to start up without altenator and plugged the Micro to abattery.
Nothing happens when kicking unless I use a little startgas throug carb, then it backfires a single time throu the carb.

What can course this?


1954 Speedtwin 5T Pre-Unit
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Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: Troels Mygind] #330577
08/29/10 7:05 pm
08/29/10 7:05 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,455
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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triton thrasher  Offline
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Try connecting the + and - of the box directly to a battery in a car.

Try tickling the carb a lot and kicking with throttle closed.

Is it Boyer Micro Power or Boyer Micro Digital or Boyer Micro MkIII or Boyer Micro Mk IV?

I usually get into trouble with our patron Mr Healy when I say this, but I had no joy until I upgraded from Boyer Micro Power to a good magneto.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: Troels Mygind] #330582
08/29/10 7:36 pm
08/29/10 7:36 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 75
Denmark
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Troels Mygind Offline OP
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It's Micro Digital.
I got CW and anit CW confused by looking at the timingwheels and thought the breakercam turned anti CW, but when looking at the distributor from the driveside it goes clockwise.

After correcting the timing to this new discovery it started right up.
It is allso at the right place to inform that it was a mate that kicked it. He weights a bit more than me, think I have read some where that the Digi will not spark under 200rpm.
If this is right I will have to get about 100mm yo yhe kickstarterarm, the old speedtwinarm does not give much rpm with my aprox 70 kilos....


1954 Speedtwin 5T Pre-Unit
Greetings from Denmark
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: Troels Mygind] #330584
08/29/10 8:09 pm
08/29/10 8:09 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,455
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Glad to hear it's running now.

You don't have to be a fat bugger to kick a Triumph. Experiment by getting the lever ("arm") horizontal before kicking, also try slowly pressing the lever to get a piston just over compression before giving it a big swing.

I must admit I don't know if 200rpm is fast for kickstarting or not.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: Troels Mygind] #330672
08/30/10 9:46 am
08/30/10 9:46 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,375
Scotland
kommando Online content
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Yes the Micro digital needs a min of 200 rpm before it wakes up and gives a spark, on my last rebuild with fresh bore I had to fit points for first 100 miles before the motor freed up enough for kicking over on the Boyer micro digital. This was with a single, you should not have the same problems with a twin if you find TDC by slowly moving the kickstarter and cthen repositioning the starter before giving the starting kick.

Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: kommando] #330677
08/30/10 10:48 am
08/30/10 10:48 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 75
Denmark
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Troels Mygind Offline OP
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Denmark
OK, think I'll have to make the kickstarterarm a bit longer then, but will try the way you describe when I come home from work today.


1954 Speedtwin 5T Pre-Unit
Greetings from Denmark
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: kommando] #330682
08/30/10 10:58 am
08/30/10 10:58 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,455
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Originally Posted By: kommando
Yes the Micro digital needs a min of 200 rpm before it wakes up and gives a spark, on my last rebuild with fresh bore I had to fit points for first 100 miles before the motor freed up enough for kicking over on the Boyer micro digital. This was with a single, you should not have the same problems with a twin if you find TDC by slowly moving the kickstarter and cthen repositioning the starter before giving the starting kick.


Odd. Nothing here about Boyer electronic ignition making bikes harder to start than with original systems:

http://www.boyerbransden.com/microdigitalmicropower.html


In fact the home page says:
Quote:
It offers better starting.
Does it then withdraw the offer?

I hope I don't sound sarcastic.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: triton thrasher] #330709
08/30/10 1:24 pm
08/30/10 1:24 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
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Scotland
kommando Online content
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Does it then withdraw the offer?

I hope I don't sound sarcastic.

In the trade its called an undocumented feature wink

The Pazon is even worse, the Boyer wakes up on the first valid signal, the Pazon waits for a second signal. Not good on a single with a light flywheel and low kickstart gearing as the B50.

Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: kommando] #330748
08/30/10 4:08 pm
08/30/10 4:08 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 737
Reading UK
twinspin Offline
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I think that it is a feature that is hard to overcome if you have a magnetic pickup as the voltage produced across the coil is proportional to the speed the magnet passes the coil. This is also the reason that you cannot do static timing. It is a shame that they don't make a system with optical pickup for Triumphs as you would be able to do static timing and it would produce a spark for all kick starting speeds. Obviously, however, most people do not have trouble reaching 200rpm during kick starting.


1971 T100R
1970 T120
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: triton thrasher] #330818
08/30/10 9:10 pm
08/30/10 9:10 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 75
Denmark
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Troels Mygind Offline OP
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Troels Mygind  Offline OP
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Denmark
Originally Posted By: triton thrasher
Odd. Nothing here about Boyer electronic ignition making bikes harder to start than with original systems:

http://www.boyerbransden.com/microdigitalmicropower.html


In fact the home page says:
Quote:
It offers better starting.
Does it then withdraw the offer?

I hope I don't sound sarcastic.

Oh yes it does, under faultfinding section "I Have Sparks On Switching On And Off But Not On Cranking":
http://www.boyerbransden.com/faultfinding.html
quote: "The ignition will not fire if turned by hand at less than 200 RPM."

I don't know what you mean wiyh: "Does it then withdraw the offer?"?

Today I raised the needle to hieghest position and I were able to rev it until I desided to shot it off, the pipes was redglowing close to white.
I didn't rev it high and beleive it is to late ignition, any other suggestions are welcome.
Also the gasket at the "tappetcap" (the lid you remove to adjust valvegap, I'm tired smile ) was pressed a bitt out but it's a poor quality and I hope thats why (ought to get new valveguides but saved this opration to the winter).


1954 Speedtwin 5T Pre-Unit
Greetings from Denmark
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: kommando] #330864
08/31/10 2:59 am
08/31/10 2:59 am
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,156
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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Originally Posted By: Troels
After correcting the timing to this new discovery it started right up.
It is allso at the right place to inform that it was a mate that kicked it. He weights a bit more than me, think I have read some where that the Digi will not spark under 200rpm.
If this is right I will have to get about 100mm yo yhe kickstarterarm, the old speedtwinarm does not give much rpm with my aprox 70 kilos....


ANd Kommandp said
Quote:
Yes the Micro digital needs a min of 200 rpm before it wakes up and gives a spark

Gee, is it polite to say "poppycock!"

First: The computer chip "boots-up" seconds after the ignition key is turned on.

Second: I can turn our test trigger with my finger tip at what would be as slow as 20 rpm, or less, and get consistant 1 inch sparks from both leads of a twin lead coil with the micro-power ignition. In fact I can take a loose magnet and pass it through the poles on the plate and get the unit to fire.


Last edited by John Healy; 08/31/10 3:08 am.

Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: Troels Mygind] #330877
08/31/10 6:42 am
08/31/10 6:42 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,455
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Originally Posted By: Troels Mygind


I don't know what you mean wiyh: "Does it then withdraw the offer?"?


Just a silly joke. Ignore me.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: John Healy] #330879
08/31/10 6:46 am
08/31/10 6:46 am
Joined: Aug 2001
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scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Originally Posted By: John Healy

Gee, is it polite to say "poppycock!"

First: The computer chip "boots-up" seconds after the ignition key is turned on.

Second: I can turn our test trigger with my finger tip at what would be as slow as 20 rpm, or less, and get consistant 1 inch sparks from both leads of a twin lead coil with the micro-power ignition. In fact I can take a loose magnet and pass it through the poles on the plate and get the unit to fire.



Apparently, "poppycock" is derived from Dutch for "soft dung," so maybe it should be filtered out by nanny software.

I don't think the guy with the problem is using Micro Power.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: Troels Mygind] #330899
08/31/10 10:43 am
08/31/10 10:43 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 75
Denmark
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Troels Mygind Offline OP
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No I'm using the Micro Digital unit.

The problem with the redglowing pipes, what can course this.
Ignition to close to TDC?
To weak mixture?
Camtiming?
Any other suggestions?


1954 Speedtwin 5T Pre-Unit
Greetings from Denmark
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: Troels Mygind] #330900
08/31/10 11:02 am
08/31/10 11:02 am
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Posts: 7,455
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triton thrasher Offline
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The hot pipe problem is probably retarded ignition timing.

But it could possibly be weak mixture.

Why would the cam timing be wrong?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: triton thrasher] #330905
08/31/10 11:38 am
08/31/10 11:38 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 75
Denmark
T
Troels Mygind Offline OP
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Denmark
Camtiming is supposed to be correct but i'vd been wrong about that once before, so perhaps it's best to check it again...
Keep thinking about you all say it isn't hard toi kick a Triumph twin, but mine is extremly hard.
Have a dark blue spot on my "kickleg" after struggeling in two days, so I thougt that perhaps wrong camtiming could course harder comp and harder "kicking"?

Last edited by Troels Mygind; 08/31/10 11:38 am.

1954 Speedtwin 5T Pre-Unit
Greetings from Denmark
Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: Troels Mygind] #330921
08/31/10 1:21 pm
08/31/10 1:21 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,156
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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The basics:
Because to be used on a T110 distributor model requires a third party to provide a housing for the trigger plate and magnet rotor to be mounted on, you MUST check that the magnets run between the two steel rods mounted on the trigger plate. Boyer has no control over the manufacture of these adapator housings.

If the magnets do not pass between the steel poles, the box will not get a good signal especially at low rpm.

This can happen with side points where the taper in the cam is cut deeper than the original and moves the magnets away from the steel poles. The magnets must pass between the two steel poles for the unit to work properly. - The magnets can be closer to one pole than the other because the signal to the box is an average of the energy created by the two pick-up coils.

Both of the Boyer Micro units, Digital and Power, require that you use 5,000 ohm resistor spark plug caps. Not doing this can cause hard starting, the unit to not fire at all, or permanent damage to the box. Because resistor spark plug wire is very fragile, and easily breaks internally causing it to become very high resistance, it is strongly suggested that it not be used! The mantra is multi-strand steel or copper wire with 5,000 ohm suppressor spark plug caps. The suppressor spark plug caps are used to prevent the natural Radio Frequency (RF) created when you have high voltages running through wires (which act as antennas) from upsetting the sensitive computer chip used in these units.

When you align the screw securing the magnet with the correct hole in the trigger plate (clockwise or counter clockwise) the motor must have the pistons set in the full advance position. This is approximately 7/16" before top dead center (BTDC). Facing your distributor from the left side the rotor turns clockwise.

Voltage issues related to batteries, corroded connections (fuse holder must not be over looked), faulty switches or poor grounds must be corrected before one can expect the Boyer unit, or any electronic ignition, to work. The engine itself MUST be grounded. Do not assume that the engine is PROPERLY grounded by the bolts holding it in the frame.

In rare situations the rectifier can be faulty and let un-rectified Alternating Current (AC) from the stator leak into the wiring harness. This can upset, and sometimes permanently damage, the box. Just because your bike ran with points, doesn't mean that it will run with an electronic ignition.

Because the Micro series of Boyer's uses a sensitive computer chip, or any other electronic ignition that utilizes a computer chip, all of the electronic ignition's wiring must be isolated from the alternator/rectifier wiring. In no circumstances should you wire the bike so the ignition's wiring runs parallel, or near for that matter, the alternator wires (the same goes for the plug wires). Alternator wires emit Radio Frequency (RF). Often people who install a Boyer in a Triumph T160 discover the bike will not start when ignition is first installed. If you look at the wiring harness you will discover that the alternator wires and the old points wires run through the wiring harness next to each other. Change the wiring and the bike starts right up.
HTH


Last edited by John Healy; 08/31/10 1:21 pm.

Re: backfire in carb, initial start up after rebuild [Re: Troels Mygind] #330932
08/31/10 2:05 pm
08/31/10 2:05 pm
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triton thrasher Offline
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If it's hard to kick over because of the lever kicking back, the fault may be in the power supply to the ignition box. The battery must be fully charged and it must also be a good battery. Every connection, terminal and contact must be clean and tight.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.

Moderated by  John Healy 


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