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Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? #313608
05/16/10 11:04 am
05/16/10 11:04 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 18
Michigan
E
Englishman Offline OP
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Englishman  Offline OP
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E
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 18
Michigan
I just connected the starter on my 1982 T140ES. Seems to work fine, but I have been receiving dire warnings against using it. Anyone know if there is a 'fix' to the problem before it breaks?
It kickstarts really easily, but just in case I htperextend my knee clearing the clutch again, it might be useful.

T140ES Starter in operation!

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Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? [Re: Englishman] #313611
05/16/10 11:20 am
05/16/10 11:20 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 274
Angus, Scotland
mick2 Offline
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mick2  Offline
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Posts: 274
Angus, Scotland
the fix i found was to bin it and change the timing gears back to earlier types. after destroying 2 idler pinions i gave up on the electric start

Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? [Re: mick2] #313614
05/16/10 11:35 am
05/16/10 11:35 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 18
Michigan
E
Englishman Offline OP
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Englishman  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 18
Michigan
SO you're saying the idler pinion is weak? or what?

Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? [Re: Englishman] #313619
05/16/10 11:55 am
05/16/10 11:55 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 274
Angus, Scotland
mick2 Offline
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Posts: 274
Angus, Scotland
the design is weak i would say.

Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? [Re: mick2] #313630
05/16/10 1:48 pm
05/16/10 1:48 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
meriden4ever Offline
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meriden4ever  Offline
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Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
The early 1980 t140ES are the ones to be suspicious of. Some (all ?) of their timing gears were not sufficently hardened and so the teetth were stripped under the strain. There should be a brass bush in the timing chest (to combat wear ?) of 1981-on T140ES.

Meriden issued an updating kit (part no. 99-7515)to cure the teething problems- consisted of part no.s 71-7619 (hub gear no.8), 71-7621 (gear 6/7) & 71-7561 (internediate spindle with no cross holes). The update service bulletin stated , 'All engine produced subsequent to NDA 31369 have these later type components fitted'.

I have two electric start (1983) machines, a TSX and a TSSAV, and have full confidence in both. eventually he latter did have some of it's timing gears replaced and the former had it's sprag clutch replaced but both after several thousand miles.


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? [Re: Englishman] #313662
05/16/10 4:42 pm
05/16/10 4:42 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 60
Gig Harbor, Washington
3
39tiger100 Offline
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39tiger100  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 60
Gig Harbor, Washington
I have an 82 T140 and it destroyed all the timing gears so I removed the starter and timing cover, replaced all the gears an reverted back to an earlier model. It starts so easily its hardly worth the problems.

A fix I use for your stuck clutch plates. When you park it pull the clutch in and drop a thick bolt between the lever and the perch, keeps the plates open and never stuck again.

Cheers


37 Tiger 90
38 Speed Twin
39 Tiger 100
46 Norton Model 18
48 Tiger 100
52 6T Thunderbird
55 Velocette MSS
56 TR6
66 Bonnie
70 Bonnie
82 T140ES
75 T160
Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? [Re: 39tiger100] #313702
05/16/10 9:55 pm
05/16/10 9:55 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 504
Maine
Sisyphus Offline
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Sisyphus  Offline
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Posts: 504
Maine
Selling it or converting to kickstart would obviate any problems with the starter. At your peril.


There is no such thing as a sympathetic vibration.
Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? [Re: Sisyphus] #313727
05/17/10 1:08 am
05/17/10 1:08 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,383
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

Life member
JubeePrince  Offline

Life member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,383
Back on the mainland!
englishman -

M4E summed it up nicely.....if you'd like to read more, click here:

If you wish to read more, click here:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post122165

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? [Re: JubeePrince] #313764
05/17/10 11:14 am
05/17/10 11:14 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 18
Michigan
E
Englishman Offline OP
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Englishman  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 18
Michigan
Thank you, that was quite informative.. and troubling.

It seems as if chopping is way easier than keeping something stock at times.

I am undeterred, however, I would like to keep this as close to how it arrived as possible.

Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? [Re: Englishman] #313772
05/17/10 1:07 pm
05/17/10 1:07 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
meriden4ever Offline
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meriden4ever  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
Danny Defazio's booklet on the T140 relates how he purchased a T140ES from new, covering many thousands of trouble-free miles before suspicion got the better of him and he removed the electric starting system. He writes he may re-fit it as his knees go ...

Here's a thing ...from 1982-5, British couple, Richard & Mopsa English went around the world on one of the very few TR65S, an electric starting TR65 Thunderbird. I asked them if they had any problems with it and indeed, as their book, Full Circle, conforms, they had NONE !Proof of the pudding ...?

BTW they and their TR65S will be at the London Motorcycle Museum on 4th July this year for Thunderbird Day.


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter? [Re: meriden4ever] #313792
05/17/10 3:20 pm
05/17/10 3:20 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
meriden4ever Offline
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meriden4ever  Offline
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Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
Here's what the sheared gears off my TSSAV looked like. The bike's starter mechanism simply locked up including the kickstart


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter [Re: Englishman] #313875
05/17/10 9:18 pm
05/17/10 9:18 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
It is a shame that Triumph didn't use a bendix type starter or incorporate a starter clutch like the Norton. This system will not tolerate the engine running backwards!

So without being Steve Boyd's "prince of doomsday" here's some suggestions:
Battery: Use the best battery money can buy.
Make sure it is at least a YB14L or equivelant.
Make sure it is always fully charged.
Make sure you keep it charged when you are not using the bike.
At the first sign the battery is having problems replace it.
At the first sign the battery is struggling to run the starter use the kick starter until you fix the problem.
Starting: Do not use the electric starter when the motor is cold, use the kick starter.
Only use the starter when the motor is warm.
Use the choke so you won't have a lean mixture that might cause a back fire.
Tune: Keep the bike in tip-top state of tune!!!!
Make sure the electric starter is kept in tip-top shape. When they get old they tend to draw more current increasing the chances of a voltage drop causing the electronic ignition back fire.

It is a voltage drop that causes the problem. When the voltage drops when you engage the electric starter, it turns off the electronic ignition firing the spark plug. If this happens when the piston under compression is half way up the bore it will break something. There are no provision to allow the motor to turn backwards when the electric starter is engaged.

I am sure that Steve Boyd thinks I am a pessimist, but I consider myself a realist.

When you see several electric start cases that are broken, or crankshafts with the end broken off, it gets your attention. Meriden forever was lucky when those gears broke!I have seen too many devastated electric start owners to not call for caution. It sort of when, not if.

This is a wonderful motorcycle. The Co-op got most of the bugs out of the rest of the bike and these make great carefree riders. Just leave the electric start on the motorcycle and use the kick starter.



Last edited by John Healy; 05/17/10 9:19 pm.

Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter [Re: John Healy] #313886
05/17/10 10:10 pm
05/17/10 10:10 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
meriden4ever Offline
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meriden4ever  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
I agree with what John says- my Triumphs are kept in tip-top shape my Reg Allen's so may mean my electric starts run OK.

The 750s are so easy to kick over , even first thing in the morning that I use the kicker mostly. I really appreciate the electric start when with a passenger and stalled in traffic- the kick lever won't clear the lowered passenger peg !

Do appreciate that those broken gears were after 13K miles including a year or so as a police demonstrator model where the electric start would've no doubt been used by rozzers in total ignorance of John H's wise words


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter [Re: meriden4ever] #313892
05/17/10 10:36 pm
05/17/10 10:36 pm
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 274
Angus, Scotland
mick2 Offline
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mick2  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 274
Angus, Scotland
my timing gears got stripped twice and it happened once to the previous owner. this was on a 1981 royal wedding T140es.
after replacing the gears twice in as many months i gave up on the leccy start, i kept the starter motor and timing case but hanged out the internals and disconnected the power supply to the starter motor. it still looked like it should but it was safe smile

Re: Anyone about the 'fix' is for the T140 Starter [Re: mick2] #315404
05/26/10 11:16 pm
05/26/10 11:16 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
meriden4ever Offline
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meriden4ever  Offline
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Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
so far , so good...am starting when i can the TSSAV on the kick and only using the leccy start when I stall. Kicking is easy but it doesn't always start first or second go which is when the button becomes a boon. I have confidence in the system although I acknowledge, meriden chased the initial design defect until they strengthened everything- the later the leccy start, the better, John Rosamond says.


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail

Moderated by  John Healy 


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