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#313843 - 05/17/10 6:57 pm What are possible causes of strong kickback  
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This is on my 70 Bonny that has been freshened up (by PO) with new carbs and things but I don't know about everything internally but supposed to have been rebuilt. It was running pretty good and starting first kick or two with little or no kickback on the kickstart lever. It just wouldn't idle. I used the wire to clear the idle orfaces. To try to get it to idle, we did strobe it but now after sitting a few months, it wants to kickback in a major way on every kick. Seemed like an advanced timing situation so I checked the static timing and it is retarded from static if anything. RF said Boyer ignition plate should go clockwise to retard and it is slightly to the clockwise of the dot when I check static time. That is with my pointer on the compression stroke located at the only mark and seeing the dot through the only window. I say that because I sometimes read of two marks and two windows. Is it possible that being too retarded would cause it to kickback? What could be some other causes of kickback? My battery is a new freshly charged gel cell that it did run on before with no problem. Thanks for any help.

Last edited by yellow_cad; 05/17/10 6:58 pm.

Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
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#313853 - 05/17/10 7:49 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: yellow_cad]  
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kommando Online content
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Your battery may be good but if there is a voltage drop due to a corroded wiring joint your Boyer may be seeing low voltage and be over advanced. Get the multi meter out and check the voltage at the box. Also check you do not have the 2 wires up from the Boyer stator connected the right way round, if wrong you get a fully advanced spark at tickover.

#313854 - 05/17/10 7:53 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: kommando]  
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Resistance too small to detect with an ohmmeter will drive a Boyer crazy. Typical culprits are loose or corroded bullet and spade connctors and their crimps and also the switch internals.

Try a direct power supply to the Boyer box from a battery in a car.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#313857 - 05/17/10 8:09 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Folsom, CA
Can you please describe a little bit more where exactly to check for how many volts?


Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
#313859 - 05/17/10 8:14 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
It usually is a voltage problem that causes a kickback on a Boyer bike if the timing is correctly set at 38 degrees at 5000rpm. Being too retarded would produce no kickback but the exhaust pipes may get red hot by the head.

My bike has the sort of charging system that only points work with, ie, the original type from 1967. It doesn't really work that well but it doesn't matter. If you don't mind checking them every 1500 miles or don't ride much points are highly recommended (by me). My bike revs right up, is smooth with no misfiring and the tickover is great.

RF whatley has 4CA points in his 66 and everyone listens to him, don't they! Yellow's bike is highly advanced compared to my 67 and Richard's 66 as it would originally have had a very nice 6CA points set up. I like these so much I have a set as spare!

Dave

Last edited by dave jones; 05/17/10 8:15 pm.
#313869 - 05/17/10 8:45 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: dave jones]  
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Be certain that the black/yellow and black/white wires aren't crossed at the pickup plate....

You could also start testing the Boyer system completely. Have a look here:

http://www.tioc.org/boyertest11.htm


Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#313878 - 05/17/10 9:31 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: JubeePrince]  
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Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
Be certain that the black/yellow and black/white wires aren't crossed at the pickup plate....

You could also start testing the Boyer system completely. Have a look here:

http://www.tioc.org/boyertest11.htm


Steve


Steve, lo and behold the wires are crossed at the pickup plate. Would this cause it to be severely advanced or retarded? Is there any possible good reason that the wires would be crossed. I know I read a post once on the Norton board where the Pazon factory wired the blk/wht and blk/yellow backwards and the end recipient had no choice but to cross wire it even though the next owner could end up not knowing. Also, this bike has run like this for me but never did run that good. It did start easily though at least with the previous timing and I haven't really tried to start it much since we strobed it. Which all could say that it was crossed wired, timed so as to just function, and never has been right since the Boyer was put on and crossed wired by the PO.


Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
#313913 - 05/18/10 1:19 am Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: yellow_cad]  
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I swithched the plate wires to their like wires now no more kickback but it doesn't want to start. I get a cough or sometimes slightly more but never near a start and run. I set the static time but based on the slots, the plate is sitting quite a ways towards retard. Is there anything I can play with such as changing the static time in order to get it started?


Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
#313919 - 05/18/10 1:54 am Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: yellow_cad]  
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YC -

You could just try and turn the plate anticlockwise a bit....perhaps now that the wiring is staightened out, it is too retarded?

If it were me, I'd just re-do the static timing. Who know what the PO did, plus you get to learn something new!

1)Remove the outer pickup plate and back off the bolt on the end of the camshaft holding the magnet rotor.

2)Give the magnet rotor a *LIGHT* tap with a screwdriver handle or the like at the N-S-E-W points of the rotor, this should free it from the taper and it'll fall into your hand.

3)Be sure your alternator mark is at full advance on the drive side. Put the magnet rotor back on the shaft without the bolt and place the pickup plate on the pillar bolts in the center of their adjustment slots. Then turn the magnet rotor until you have a magnet lined up in the clockwise hole. Remove the pickup plate and replace and tighten magnet rotor bolt. You should now have:

A) Primary side, mark on alternator at full advance.

B) Magnet dot showing through the clockwise hole in the pick up plate.

C) Pillar bolts for pickup plate should be in about the center of the slots for adjustment. Bike is now statically timed with some equal room to advance or retard.

D) Start bike and strobe time at 5K RPM. Turn plate clockwise to retard or anticlockwise to advance.

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#313938 - 05/18/10 5:04 am Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: JubeePrince]  
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Sounds like a plan Steve. One question though: when you say," Primary side, mark on alternator at full advance," on my bike (70 Bonny) does that mean that the pointer is on the only mark on the altenator on the compression stroke (compression stroke determined by the feel of extra effort on the kickstart to rotate the motor)?


Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
#313942 - 05/18/10 6:40 am Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: yellow_cad]  
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Primary side, mark on alternator at full advance," on my bike (70 Bonny) does that mean that the pointer is on the only mark on the altenator on the compression stroke (compression stroke determined by the feel of extra effort on the kickstart to rotate the motor)?


Yes

#313972 - 05/18/10 1:17 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: JubeePrince]  
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Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
YC -

3)Be sure your alternator mark is at full advance on the drive side. Put the magnet rotor back on the shaft without the bolt and place the pickup plate on the pillar bolts in the center of their adjustment slots. Then turn the magnet rotor until you have a magnet lined up in the clockwise hole. Remove the pickup plate and replace and tighten magnet rotor bolt. You should now have:
Steve


Steve,

huh? I don't get the picture. We removed the pickup plate in step 1. Now we remove the pickup plate again, here in step 3. Then I do not see that we ever replace the pickup plate in any of your other steps.

Perhaps a picture with labels would help. How many pickup plates are there?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#313990 - 05/18/10 3:07 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: btour]  
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Originally Posted By: btour
Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
YC -

3)Be sure your alternator mark is at full advance on the drive side. Put the magnet rotor back on the shaft without the bolt and place the pickup plate on the pillar bolts in the center of their adjustment slots. Then turn the magnet rotor until you have a magnet lined up in the clockwise hole. Remove the pickup plate and replace and tighten magnet rotor bolt. You should now have:
Steve


Steve,

huh? I don't get the picture. We removed the pickup plate in step 1. Now we remove the pickup plate again, here in step 3. Then I do not see that we ever replace the pickup plate in any of your other steps.

Perhaps a picture with labels would help. How many pickup plates are there?


Bob -

Re-read the above in blue.....don't complicate things!! smile

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#313994 - 05/18/10 3:22 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: JubeePrince]  
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I dunno Steve. I think it is your description that is overly complicated. laughing. "outer pickup plate"? Like is there an inner pick up plate too? Remove? Did you mean to move again? As in re-move?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#314000 - 05/18/10 4:07 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: btour]  
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Thanks again guys.


Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
#314110 - 05/19/10 2:55 am Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: kommando]  
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Originally Posted By: yellow_cad
On my bike (70 Bonny) does that mean that the pointer is on the only mark on the alternator ?


Originally Posted By: kommando
Yes


No. There are 2 marks on the rotor each 180 deg apart, but only one of them is used. So you have to be especially careful which mark you use to set the static timing.

To be sure remove the plugs and place the bike on the centerstand in high gear. Use a spoke down the plug hole to find approximate TDC. Bump the rear wheel in reverse until the first line comes up to the pointer. That's it. Fill the rotor mark with RED felt-tip marker ink.

With that mark aligned with the pointer, now set your EI rotor in the static position called for in the manuals.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#314172 - 05/19/10 1:05 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: RF Whatley]  
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YC
a. The pilot jets are critical to the operation of the idle circuit. The orifice in the pilot jet plug is a "jet", not a hole. If you want the bike to idle, and start, properly you should consider treating it like a jet. The jet is 0.016" or a #78 drill. These are available at any machine shop supply or from a dealer who trades with us. If you want to be unhappy with the performance of your carburetor at idle, starting and low speed operation continue to treat the JET as a hole.

You must also be sure the two transfer ports either side of the back edge of the slide are clear. Have you cleaned this carb. lately?

b. If you use the machines timing mark on the rotor aligned with the pointer, and it is in the right place (the outside of the rotor hasn't come loose from the hub), and you have either of the two screw heads securing the magnets to the rotor visible (centered) in the clockwise timing hole in the timing plate, the bike should be timed within a few degrees.

Check to make sure timing mark on rotor is in the right place. It should line up with the pointer when the piston is about 7/16" before top dead center. Use rear wheel as RF describes above. If it seems off you will need to get a degree wheel on the motor for a final check.

c. If you have either of the screw heads securing the magnets visible through the anti-clockwise hole (that is the hole just to the left of one of the coils as you face it) the timing will be off approximately 60 retarded and bike will sputter, but will not start.

d. If you found the black/white and black/white wires crossed at the plate, for the bike to have run in the past (and you said it did run), the wires would have to have been crossed back at the connection at the control box. If they weren't, the bike would be out of time 60 retarded and would not start.

e. A battery is never a "GOOD" battery until proven to run an electronic ignition. A battery can pass a common head light test and still not run an electronic ignition. A NEW battery is never to be considered a GOOD battery until you have it professionally load tested or actually see it run the ignition.

f. And the gas is how old?

g. What Richard said...


Last edited by John Healy; 05/19/10 3:24 pm.

#314178 - 05/19/10 1:25 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: RF Whatley]  
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laughing
I started typing all this before John made his excellent post, which is all you need to know. But perhaps this will help with some context.

Phil Irving has this to say, about the subject of the thread:

pg. 256 Chap. ignition.

Originally Posted By: Phil Irving
"The amount of advance also varies to some extent with engine speed. At starting, for instance, the engine will kick back at full advance, and when pulling hard at slow, or medium speed less advance is required than at open throttle at high speed, because the mixture has longer to time in which to burn completely.

Consequently, it is necessary to incorporate a method of varying the timing, either by moving the contact breaker or by moving the whole magneto armature relative to the crankshaft by means of some centrifugal contrivance, such as the Lucas, or R.T.H. automatic advance devices, though these need to operate only from zero up to 2,500 or 3,000 r.p.m.

"From then on to maximum revs in a normal, well-designed engine, the advance appears to be independant of speed, because the higher this is, the higher the turbulence in the mixture becomes, and the rate of combustion is automatically speeded up in unison with the increase in r.p.m. - a fact which permits some racing engines to be run with fixed ignition timing."

STARTING

"Before an engine can run, it must of course, start, For it to do this, the mixture-strength in the little space occupied by the plug-points--or more precisely, between the plug-points, which may be only 0-018 in. apart--must be within the limits of 16:1 and 12:1 by weight if petrol is the fuel, or about 8:1 if alcohol is used. This applies to the amount of fuel present in the form of vapour; (Irving's emphasis) droplets, however small, do not count, and it is easy to see that at low speeds of starting the mixture is hardly likely to be homogeneous, but is more likely to be of varying consistency, with some areas that are too weak to ignite and some too rich, or merely containing wet fuel in suspension.


As a portion of petrol will vaporize at ordinary temperature it is necessary to provide a surplus for cold starting, and modern petrols are blended to suit the prevailing weather conditions so that starting is not much of a problem (:laugh not so well in this century). If however a flooded engine does not start at once, it will be reluctant to do so at all, because the previously unvaporized fraction have been given time to vaporize and the mixture then becomes too rich to maintain combustion, even if the spark does manage to initiate it."


Last edited by btour; 05/19/10 2:08 pm.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#314188 - 05/19/10 2:06 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: btour]  
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There is a huge amount to consider in that short excerpt, and the rest of the chapter, which is short. And if one considers Kevin's article on igition advance along with it.

Our EI's advance curve is exactly what? And up to what rpm? Surely it could be improved upon, for each bike, and location of use, and type of use, prevailing fuel, etc. etc.

So do you drive to suit your EI, or should your EI function to suit your driving?

What we lack is a Throttle Sensor. Some intelligent human should be able to come up with one, though. Lets see, Some magic thingys. On the grip would be problematic because of the varying slack in the cables. But sensors could be applied to the slide itself.

The EI should be progamable. Lacking a Dyno, a manual advance could be plug into to the EI. (which would have to be part of the designe. ) The resulting "maps" saved, and then used.

Lacking all this, we can double plug the head. And Phil discusses this in this chap. on ignition. Where to put the plug, is important, given our head and piston shape and location of intake and exhaust. He also mentions the use of a "local depression" in the top of the piston for hemi shaped heads, as being of use. Where is my Hammer laughing.

The above helps with the speed of the burn, so that we can retard the timing for much more efficiency.

Thinking about our bikes, all I can come up with for the turbulence provided is the offset of the intakes, and to some extent the exhaust to provide swirl. There is no squish, right? So at low speeds there is not much swirl either. And with low density of charge, more advance is needed, or So slow burn, and detonation. But our EI's do not do that, and can not without a throttle sensor.

In the immediate present, we are left with, (for a street bike), double plugging, or get out the hammer and whack that piston crown. laughing


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#314213 - 05/19/10 4:25 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: btour]  
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John, I understand all that you are saying except:

c. If you have either of the screw heads securing the magnets visible through the anti-clockwise hole (that is the hole just to the left of one of the coils as you face it) the timing will be off approximately 60 retarded and bike will sputter, but will not start.

The white dots and the screw heads are visable together and for each screw there is a white dot. Which hole on the front plate should I view the white dot through? If you could, please describe the hole as either just clockwise or just counter clockwise of the nearest magnet pickup. The hole I have been using is just counter clockwise of the magnet pickup. Since the white dots are 180 degrees apart on the magnet plate (back plate), does it matter which dot I use?


Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
#314218 - 05/19/10 4:49 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: John Healy]  
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Originally Posted By: John Healy
c. If you have either of the screw heads securing the magnets visible through the anti-clockwise hole (that is the hole just to the left of one of the coils as you face it) the timing will be off approximately 60 retarded and bike will sputter, but will not start.


YC, I do not know, but just guessing from this, and Steve's post, that you want the hole that is to your right hand as you face the bike, to be the one you are aligning it with. So, righty, then you are right, Lefty, and you are goosed. This is all as you face the bike. I know all this rotating clock stuff is confusing. Hey, but some people are dyslexic, too.

I guess you could think of it as if the dot where at twelve o'clock and it rotated anti-clockwise it would be heading towards the whole which at your left as you face the bike. So that is the anti-clockwise hole.

And vice a versus.

But of course is you started at six o'clock that would not work, or would it? So it all depends upon where you start to get this clock thing as a label, I guess.

Gee,

I sure hope I got that right or I will be confused for life. It is hard to undo a turning thing, memory.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#314219 - 05/19/10 4:50 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: yellow_cad]  
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Originally Posted By: yellow_cad

Which hole on the front plate should I view the white dot through? If you could, please describe the hole as either just clockwise or just counter clockwise of the nearest magnet pickup. The hole I have been using is just counter clockwise of the magnet pickup. Since the white dots are 180 degrees apart on the magnet plate (back plate), does it matter which dot I use?


YC -

As stated previously, use the clockwise hole. I think John was just pointing out what could happen if you used the anti-clockwise hole in error (very retarded).

It does not matter which magnet/dot you use....

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#314223 - 05/19/10 4:57 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: JubeePrince]  
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Ya see, Steve. Hard to picture, it is. One picture, with an arrow, would clear it all up.

What the ding dang a clock has to do with the position of the holes, eludes the imagination. What is this some sort of convention, like a secret handshake? laughing

Quick let me get my secret de-coder ring. Dang it did not come in my box of crackerjacks. laughing

Last edited by btour; 05/19/10 4:59 pm.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#314226 - 05/19/10 5:19 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: btour]  
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To start with the back of the phenolic plate is clearly marked as to which hole is clockwise, and which hole is counter clockwise.

But facing the phenolic timing plate when it is installed, it will be the first hole the magnets come to as they rotate when they are turning clockwise.

Or another way of saying it it is the hole just counterclockwise of the coil it is adjacent to.

Boyer Instructions download kit00052 pdf
There is a picture in Boyer's instructions.

Geez, there is a lot of static on this thread.

Bob, the clock is used here as an analogy. It allows people to communicate with words when pictures are not available. The turning of the clock's hands has been used to describe rotation for a long time. Get the picture?


#314227 - 05/19/10 5:25 pm Re: What are possible causes of strong kickback [Re: John Healy]  
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John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,962
Boston, Massachusetts
YC
It does not matter which white dot you align as long as one of the white dots is in the center of the hole.

Triumph use the clockwise hole (clockwise refers to the rotation of the rotor).

Norton and BSA use the counter clockwise hole (again counter clockwise refers to the rotation of the rotor).


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