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#311065 - 05/02/10 10:07 am Simply Don't Understand  
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DPO Offline
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Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
Here's the scenario, In an effort to fix the remaining oil leaks on my 72 Bonneville OIF, I started about 2 weeks ago. I removed the oil filter from the bottom of the tank, the sump plug, and primary cover for a new gasket. I had to make sure all the oil was out of it for a welding job on the tank at the swing arm attach point at the tank. I thoroughly cleaned the oil tank, disconnected all the oil lines from the tank, had the weld job done, and wheeled her back into the garage. The bike has sat like this for about 2 weeks now, and everytime I look under the bike, there's a puddle of engine oil, about half a pint. I clean up the oil, and the next day, another fresh puddle. Sump plug still out, oil filter still off, and primary cover still off. Where could this oil be coming from? All oil lines are dry, and there is still gearbox oil in it, but this is clearly NOT 90 weight oil. How can I fix an oil leak, when there's no oil to leak? Craziest thing I've ever seen. Im convinced I'll NEVER get the oil leaks stopped. If it's leaking with no oil in it, just imagine how bad it'll be when I DO put oil back in it...What a catastrophe this bike has been...Really, I sometimes wish I'd never seen the dang thing.


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
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#311071 - 05/02/10 10:55 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
Joined: Aug 2001
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Dennis B Online content
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Annapolis, MD
DPO
pint is a lot of oil to be coming from nowhere.
you need to start doing things logically

here is a thought,
get some rags and plug up your sump drain and oil tank
(don't understand why you didn't replace the sump plug 2 weeks ago??)
and lay one in the bottom of the primary.
Then check it in a couple of days
now if there is ANY oil under the bike, it can only be coming from a timing chest leak

No oil under bike?
Remove the rag plugs, and see who drains more oil
HTH
Cheers
Dennis B
P.S.
I'm not convinced you have a problem, I think it's oil from the timing
chest, which is slowly leaking past the T/S main bearing and down and out
of the sump drain.
Replace the plug, problem solved.


Member # 182
'73 750 Commando
'72 Combat Commando
'71 Triumph Blazer
'69 Victors
'68 Starfire
'51 Royal Enfield 250 'S'

#311112 - 05/02/10 4:01 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: Dennis B]  
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highway Offline
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hamilton on. can.
Gnomes are dripping fresh oil under your bike to mess with you, they find it incredably entertaining to see how far they can push some one over the edge. They've been your problem all along!!!!! Cheers Rick

#311129 - 05/02/10 5:04 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: highway]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
Put a tray under the engine.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#311174 - 05/02/10 10:44 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,465
L.A.B. Online content
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Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted By: DPO
The bike has sat like this for about 2 weeks now, and everytime I look under the bike, there's a puddle of engine oil, about half a pint. I clean up the oil, and the next day, another fresh puddle. Sump plug still out, oil filter still off, and primary cover still off. Where could this oil be coming from? All oil lines are dry, and there is still gearbox oil in it, but this is clearly NOT 90 weight oil.


Just a wild guess, maybe some oil had leaked from the main frame reservior into the hollow box section cross-member at the bottom of the frame through a tiny crack or pinhole where the tube connects to the cross member, and that oil is now finding its way back out again because the reservoir is empty and the filter plate is off?

#311180 - 05/02/10 11:53 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: L.A.B.]  
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DPO Offline
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Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
Nevermind, it WAS gearbox oil...sorry.


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
#311185 - 05/03/10 12:24 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
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Queen's Horseman Offline
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Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
I'm convinced that half of the oil spots under out Triumphs are actually put there by those darn Norton guys out of jealousy! Can't turn your back for a second.

#311187 - 05/03/10 12:26 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
Joined: May 2005
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shel Online content
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shel  Online Content
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ohio
Originally Posted By: DPO
but this is clearly NOT 90 weight oil.


how many pints does your gearbox hold? I'm sorry but everything you post screams "full of shit" to me.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
#311242 - 05/03/10 9:05 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
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Towner Offline
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Lower Rhine Area, Germany
Originally Posted By: DPO
Nevermind, it WAS gearbox oil...sorry.


... gearbox oil after all ...


Triumph Bonneville 650 T120RV 1972
Norton Commando 850 MKII 1973
#311265 - 05/03/10 11:53 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: shel]  
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DPO Offline
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Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia


how many pints does your gearbox hold? I'm sorry but everything you post screams "full of shit" to me. [/quote]

Whatever you do, don't sugarcoat it...


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
#311353 - 05/03/10 5:21 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
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shel Online content
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ohio
That really was uncalled for and I apologize.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
#311408 - 05/03/10 8:55 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: shel]  
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DPO Offline
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Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
Apology accepted, and yes, this bike IS BS...4th time the cylinder was off for the exhaust pushrod tube leaking, just turned the bike around after getting halfway to my cousins house because it's simply billowing oil from the same area. At a loss of what to do now...I simply don't know what to do with it...I guess it'll sit in the garage all summer.


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
#311497 - 05/04/10 10:32 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
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Dick Harris Online content
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East Bethany New York
Come on DPO,all Triumphs don't have all the problems that you have had. You know the guy that put it all together and it's rather obvious he didn't do something right. You must have read all about P/R seal crush,and you certainly have the ability to look at the parts in question for flaws. Now take it apart for the last time and do it right. You can do it. Dick

#311499 - 05/04/10 10:55 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: Dick Harris]  
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Ob1quixote Online content
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Ob1quixote  Online Content
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Charleston SC
Keep at it until it is done DPO! With the rough road you have had on that machine, you will be an expert when you are done.

Wish I had some sage advice to give, truth is I am just about as experienced as you with the Brit bikes, just luckier I guess. How about "Just as your pain through the build has been great, so will your satisfaction be when the job is complete!"?


When singing "Kung Fu Fighting" is outlawed, only outlaws will sing "Kung Fu Fighting"
#311502 - 05/04/10 11:26 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: Ob1quixote]  
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DPO Offline
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Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
It's definitely a mystery. It IS obvious that I did'nt do something right, or more likely, Im missing something. The only 2 things it could be, is that I'm possibly using the wrong o-ring, OR something is cracked....either the PRT itself, or the cylinder base. The first 8 to 10 miles I rode the bike, the area was totally dry, and I thought I had it licked. The next ride, of about 15 miles, revealed a "wet" or "damp" sheen to the area. Then after the 60 mile ride on Sunday, I was convinced it was again a problem. The ride yesterday was simply to see if the leak was manageable, at least for the 3 state ride this month, but no way, gotta be fixxed. That o-ring, if at fault, could be heating up and deteriorating, or there's a crack that opens once the engine is hot. The last 4 o-rings I've removed from the tappet block, have been destroyed, or come off in pieces. I'll take it down again, and this time order 3 or 4 of these particular seals from M.A.P., not just "sizing one up from the kit", that way I know it's the correct one, and also do a dye-penetrant inspection on the PRT itself, and the cylinder base. Should be able to get to it Sunday morning, and will call M.A.P. today. JB weld on oil tank still holding, remaining leaks are manageable. Thank you all for the encouragement....this too will pass.


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
#311514 - 05/04/10 1:53 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
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DPO Offline
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Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
Cylinder off in 1 hour 4 minutes flat, that's including getting all the tools out of my box....Removed exhaust tappet, and again, o-ring destroyed. It was in tact, but severely mutilated. I see some pitting, like lava pits, apparently from heat....Gotta be incorrect o-ring...can't get through to M.A.P., gotta get to bed, as I just swallowed an Ambien. Will post picture of damaged o-ring this afternoon....Pistons and cylinder still like new.


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
#311515 - 05/04/10 1:58 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
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Buckshot1 Online content
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Old Hangtown, Kalifornia
Good idea doing the dye check. By 'cylinder base' you mean the block? I would think something must be moving to shred the o-ring. Are the engine cases co-planar where the block is bolted to them?


Michael

currently owned by a 72 T120R
maker of plunger conversion jig
#311591 - 05/04/10 8:19 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: Buckshot1]  
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DPO Offline
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Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
Dont know what you mean by "co-planar", but yes, the case halves are even and smooth.



Here's the tappet block o-ring. I know it's not an installation issue, as I "installed, torqued, and removed, and inspected" several times previously on the last build.

Last edited by DPO; 05/04/10 8:21 pm.

If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
#311606 - 05/04/10 9:42 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
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Myles Offline
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Paonia, Colorado
DPO,
I don't know this with any certainty but I think that you need to use the OEM o-ring. That o-ring appears to have been heat damaged and I seem to remember reading somewhere that the OEM seal is made from some kind of high temp material.



#311621 - 05/04/10 11:55 pm Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
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Buckshot1 Online content
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Old Hangtown, Kalifornia
Originally Posted By: DPO
Dont know what you mean by "co-planar", but yes, the case halves are even and smooth.


You've grasped the concept. co-planar=within the same plane, and by definition a plane being a flat surface

It does appear to have a charred, cooked look to it. I may have missed something re: type o-ring being used. Is this an "equivalent" part which may only meet size but not spec for the heat realm?

Last edited by Buckshot1; 05/04/10 11:59 pm. Reason: add content

Michael

currently owned by a 72 T120R
maker of plunger conversion jig
#311624 - 05/05/10 12:11 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: Buckshot1]  
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Queen's Horseman Offline
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Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
DPO,

I'm following your saga with interest and sympathy. I have a '79 T140D that was oil tight for several years which developed a front PRT leak last summer that appears to be the tappet o-ring. I have re-done it twice and a knowledgeable friend has done it once. When doing the heat cycles everything is fine but when I take it for a ride, it begins to leak again. I'm beginning to question the quality of the o-rings. I have checked my oil pressure readings and compression tests. My next attempt will involve the wicking Locktite (290 I think). The darn thing runs great and is a pleasure to ride however I dislike having to put a bandana around the front PRT!

#311632 - 05/05/10 1:06 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: Queen's Horseman]  
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DPO Offline
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DPO  Offline
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Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
Locktite just makes it uglier, trust me, and hard to get clean. The only fix is the correct o-ring. On it's way with other gaskets from M.A.P.


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
#311650 - 05/05/10 2:46 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: Buckshot1]  
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Jack Adams Offline
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Noblesville, IN
I think a picture of the tappet block with the O-ring on it is in order. It looks like the wrong size O-ring to me. Jack

#311674 - 05/05/10 9:31 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: Jack Adams]  
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DPO Offline
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DPO  Offline
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Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
Actually, the o-ring matched up identically diameter and thickness wise, this particular (and apparently the previous 4) did not have the heat resistant characteristics required...So DON'T use the o-rings supplied in the EMGO kits...Always special order these o-rings...


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
#311681 - 05/05/10 10:38 am Re: Simply Don't Understand [Re: DPO]  
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Ob1quixote Online content
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Charleston SC
Has that o-ring been subjected to carb cleaner spray? I have seen o-rings bloat when in contact with carb cleaner, even when installed and "contained"


When singing "Kung Fu Fighting" is outlawed, only outlaws will sing "Kung Fu Fighting"
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