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#303293 - 03/15/10 9:28 pm Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: JBMorris]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,799
Kevin (NZ). Offline
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Kevin (NZ).  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,799
Christchurch, NZ
This thread has some great info contained within in places. Perhaps some is worthy of being placed elsewhere under an engine rebuild section at some time.

It is not my best thread by any-means, - no doubt attested by most reading here.

Most guys are correct about precise readings and the requirement for precision measuring devices.
A digital caliper will only give you your error to 3 decimal places etc. Naturally you need to be measuring in the right areas and with the correct devices and methods.

Likewise an uncalibrated torque wrench could be clicking at an approx figure also.
In my hangar all tooling is recalibrated every year. (Aviation requirement). The torque wrenches come back with a card showing the indicated setting vs the real, or actual torque.

In the past week I have been busying myself on engine work also. Removing a car engine with a bearing knock. A Honda G20A, 5 cylinder inline North-South engine in a FWD car.
The engine drives rearwards to the auto and then an interconnect shaft drives forward to a differential unit mounted on the side of the engine sump. One axle shaft then has to go through the sump in order to drive the RHS wheel.
Anyway, not your average engine... but out, apart, crank out, re-shelled etc, refitted, engine reassembled and then engine refitted.
I only came back to NZ for the BSA International rally, but a cheap car (with only one problem) seemed a bargain.
The car will be a present for my mother...
(I bought the car as I knew I had access to an engine with a good bottom end... and free).

Anyway, - you can appreciate I have done my fair share with the internal gauges, micrometers and torque wrenches in the past few days.

Although I work around the world I have not really spent a lot of time in the States. I did however do some flying in Texas for several weeks about twenty years ago.
While there I did the FAA A&P aircraft technicians Certificate. Easily done... afterall the study material includes the questions and answers.
I seem to remember much of the content of this thread was also covered in the engine syllabus there... as indeed you would expect. This stuff should not be new to some reading here !

Last edited by Kevin (NZ).; 03/15/10 11:57 pm.

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#303312 - 03/15/10 11:33 pm Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: Duke Of Oil]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
Boston, Massachusetts
I am afraid all of my references show the 650 at 28 foot pounds and 22 for the 750 twin rod bolts. Pete could you point me in a direction where you have seen 22 foot pounds listed for the 650?
John


#303314 - 03/15/10 11:40 pm Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
Boston, Massachusetts
Because we only use our micrometer for comparison an inexpensive one should be in everyones tool box. We measure the diameter of a piston and using a set of spring loaded telescoping gages compare one measurement to the other.

While an inexpensive outside micrometer is all that is need, I would not spend a dime on a set of chinese spring loaded telescoping gages. They are not even good enough to be used as paper weights. To get an accurate measurement using these you need a good set. You will pay three times what you paid for the micrometer for a good set of telescoping gages.


#303366 - 03/16/10 5:15 am Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 69
justrob Offline
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justrob  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 69
Milwaukee, WI USA
Hi DPO,

I'm not trying to pile on here, I really want this to work out for you. Your profile says you are in Hiram, GA. Isn't RF Whatley in Atlata? Google maps says those aren't that far apart. Wouldn't it make sense to put some of the money you are spending to fix these problems towards having an actual expert rather than just a buddy who really knows what he's doing look at it?

I really hope you get everything fixed this time.
Good luck,
Rob

#303523 - 03/16/10 11:34 pm Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
I'm still a little puzzled by the quoted revised torque figures too.Here's what I've got:
From the Boyer book on TRIUMPH TUNING,p.38 in this edition:
"On 650cc engines from number GC23016,a new type of nut was introduced needing a torque loading of only 22ft./lbs. compared with the earlier 28 ft./lbs." The front cover is missing from my copy,but I can locate an intact copy for exact details of title and author.I thought the Boyer people had pretty close connections with Triumph and should be "īn the know".

From "BONNIE The Development of the Triumph Bonneville",by J.R.Nelson p.123 "New connecting rods were introduced at GC23016,now fitted with connecting rod bolts and self lock nuts utilising UNF threads.Resulting from this new thread angle and form,the tightening torque was ammended from 28lbf to 22 lbf ft."

Also as you noted,the T140,which has the same bolt diameter and same 5/16" UNF thread,is torqued to 22 ft-lbs recommended torque.

My first thoughts on these revised settings were that a coarser thread would require more torque to achieve the same clamping force;24tpi UNF vs 26TPI CEI.Could it be that the coarser an deeper thread results in a smaller root diameter,so torque was reduced so as to not increase stress at the root of the thread?
Maybe we can just scratch our heads at this point,until someone comes up with a better answer.

Last edited by Pete R; 03/16/10 11:37 pm. Reason: spelling
#303541 - 03/17/10 1:50 am Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
Boston, Massachusetts
While I penciled the "change" in The Bonnie Book when I read it, I could not find any Service Bulletin from Triumph to confirm his statement. There is a Service Bulletin describing the new rod, but that was issued in 1968 and shows no change in torque figures.

Also, if you follow the parts books, the change in the new rod (70-9525 and UNF rod bolt 70-6576) came with the introduction of the 1969 model (DU85904), not at the end of the model year (GC23016) which ended 28,000 bikes later, at motor number HC24346.

Lacking a Service Bulletin to the contrary I am looking at 28 foot pounds.


#303602 - 03/17/10 1:35 pm Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
Boston, Massachusetts
So faced with this conundrum I called John Birch at L.F. Harris and asked him what were the torque figures for the 70-6576 rod bolt. He replied off the top of his head 28 foot pounds. L.F. Harris has the original factory drawings, and then I asked the question: "What does the drawing show for torque figures on the 70-6576 rod bolt in question?" The answer, "260 to 270 inch pounds!"

So there you have it. Convert it we have 21.67 to 22.55 foot pounds.

The question remains, why was the 70-6576 bolt, with its UNF nut, introduced at the beginning of the 1969 model year (August 1968), and the 22 foot pound recommendation, listed in Shenton and Nelson, come near the end of the model year (GC23016) June 1969)? This makes absolutely no sense.

Also, why did the comprehensive compilation of Service Bulletins (Titled 1968 through 1971 Triumph Service Bulletins "Dealer's Service Shop Copies: For Mechanics Use, bound in a black press binder) done by The Triumph Corporation for the model years 1967-1970 not include this most important change. This compilation listed the published date and contents of all of the Service Bulletins from that period.

Again drawing attention to the 1971-72 Workshop manual, which was a whole new exercise because of all of the changes that were made to the 650, also includes the rod bolt torque as 28 foot pounds.

I suppose if I wasn't using bolt stretch I would have crossed this earlier. My next task is to check the drawing for the date the 260-270 inch recommendation was put on the drawing. These drawings list dates where changes were made and give a little history to the part. This might give us a clue...

So let's torque up some rods and compare the stretch with the torque. I know the ARP 650 rod bolt torques at approximately 28 foot pounds at .005" stretch.
Are you having fun yet?
John


#303619 - 03/17/10 3:13 pm Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 227
rstar45 Offline
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rstar45  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 227
Colorado
Back to DPO... the way he moves he probably has her back together. He has a clean crank... did we ever get the Oil Pressure thing resolved??? Pump Gasket? End Feed? I know nothing, but I'm worried about it.

#303715 - 03/18/10 2:13 am Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: rstar45]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,636
DPO Offline
BritBike Forum member
DPO  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,636
Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
Please don't worry about me, engine still in pieces, contemplating alot of things right now, you can bet that when I go back together with it, this will be the last time, one way or another.


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"

1971 Triumph T120
2005 Triumph "America"
1976 BMW R90/6
#303743 - 03/18/10 7:09 am Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: DPO]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
MarksterTT Offline
BritBike Forum member
MarksterTT  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
DPO , I felt that way once over a problem with T120 engine so I stuck it away and went and bought a brand new 1975 Kawi Z1...luckily I kept the Triumph, although that one is still in boxes but now have all the original pieces...so one of these days...Mark

#309560 - 04/23/10 5:29 pm Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: GaCracker]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4
441Guy Offline
BritBike Forum member
441Guy  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4
Florida
Originally Posted By: GaCracker
I can only speak for my '72, but I have a long history with mine, and it's been a good experience. Bought it in 1975 and rode hard until the late 80's. It sat on the sidestand, neglected for about 4 years. This, I am convinced caused the TS main bearing to fail when I began riding again. My dad was a first rate auto\truck mechanic who once rode a Triumph twin. He realized the need for special tools and expertise on these engines, so we did not hesitate to locate someone with Triumph experience. My dad's old friend and Triumph dealer, Roy Taylor suggested James Hiter, who was also a dealer and factory trained mechanic. Looking back, it was $1500 well spent to rebuild the lower end and rering the pistons. That was in 1994 and I have had no engine trouble since, with me doing all other maintenance. Best of luck DPO whatever you choose to do. We are fortunate to have skilled mechanics like RF and James in our area to call on when needed. Hope you get sorted out, and we meet up on the road somewhere. Greg


I wouldn't let James Hiter work on my weed wacker.

#309561 - 04/23/10 5:35 pm Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: SBoyd]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4
441Guy Offline
BritBike Forum member
441Guy  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4
Florida
Originally Posted By: SBoyd
DPO
You're back.......
Great
I have something to say
When a man admits that he might have done something wrong which has only hurt himself, no one has any business trying to make him feel bad about it.

Just to put a Triumph engine together from scratch that runs is an accomplishment and I bet some of them could not do it.
People who pile on like that are no good. They are assholes.
Just my opinion

>>steve
Agreed

#309565 - 04/23/10 5:59 pm Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: 441Guy]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,476
GaCracker Offline
BritBike Forum member
GaCracker  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,476
Johns Creek,Ga
Originally Posted By: 441Guy
Originally Posted By: GaCracker
I can only speak for my '72, but I have a long history with mine, and it's been a good experience. Bought it in 1975 and rode hard until the late 80's. It sat on the sidestand, neglected for about 4 years. This, I am convinced caused the TS main bearing to fail when I began riding again. My dad was a first rate auto\truck mechanic who once rode a Triumph twin. He realized the need for special tools and expertise on these engines, so we did not hesitate to locate someone with Triumph experience. My dad's old friend and Triumph dealer, Roy Taylor suggested James Hiter, who was also a dealer and factory trained mechanic. Looking back, it was $1500 well spent to rebuild the lower end and rering the pistons. That was in 1994 and I have had no engine trouble since, with me doing all other maintenance. Best of luck DPO whatever you choose to do. We are fortunate to have skilled mechanics like RF and James in our area to call on when needed. Hope you get sorted out, and we meet up on the road somewhere. Greg


I wouldn't let James Hiter work on my weed wacker.
I'm not in a mood to defend James Hiter right now, having laid my mother to rest yesterday after a brave, eight week battle. Care to elaborate about James, or are you just being an asshole? Greg


72 TR6RV
2004 Thruxton
#309575 - 04/23/10 6:49 pm Re: DPO's Done.... [Re: GaCracker]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4
441Guy Offline
BritBike Forum member
441Guy  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4
Florida
Originally Posted By: GaCracker
Originally Posted By: 441Guy
Originally Posted By: GaCracker
I can only speak for my '72, but I have a long history with mine, and it's been a good experience. Bought it in 1975 and rode hard until the late 80's. It sat on the sidestand, neglected for about 4 years. This, I am convinced caused the TS main bearing to fail when I began riding again. My dad was a first rate auto\truck mechanic who once rode a Triumph twin. He realized the need for special tools and expertise on these engines, so we did not hesitate to locate someone with Triumph experience. My dad's old friend and Triumph dealer, Roy Taylor suggested James Hiter, who was also a dealer and factory trained mechanic. Looking back, it was $1500 well spent to rebuild the lower end and rering the pistons. That was in 1994 and I have had no engine trouble since, with me doing all other maintenance. Best of luck DPO whatever you choose to do. We are fortunate to have skilled mechanics like RF and James in our area to call on when needed. Hope you get sorted out, and we meet up on the road somewhere. Greg


I wouldn't let James Hiter work on my weed wacker.
I'm not in a mood to defend James Hiter right now, having laid my mother to rest yesterday after a brave, eight week battle. Care to elaborate about James, or are you just being an asshole? Greg


Sorry to hear about your mother. I don't want to disparage someone anymore than I have; I would just say there are plenty of qualified people out there to do the work that are not cretins.

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