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#30878 - 11/06/07 6:33 pm removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
snowbeard Offline
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snowbeard  Offline
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Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
well I'm gonna bite the bullet and send my magneto out for a test and some rebuilding. hopefully the test show the arm to be alright. frown

I've been awfully hesitant about this, but I'd have to say I'm more worried about timing everything properly again afterwards than the cost.

is there anything I can do to preserve the timing as it is? mark the gears? don't move the engine? or is it really not that big a deal to get the rough timing back in place? any advice or encouragement here is appreciated wink

do I need to remove both timing covers to get the magneto off, or can I undo the timing gear and leave it in the case?

thanks a ton, getting deeper into this bike everyday... smile


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
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#30880 - 11/06/07 7:41 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
snowbeard Offline
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snowbeard  Offline
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US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
that is perfect, thank you for the time to explain that so clearly!! I'm beginning to picture it now.

so the place where the timing is adjusted is really the armature pinion on the fiber timing gear. that can be adjusted and then locked down once everything is correct.

I have no advance currently, so unless I add that during the rebuild process, I still won't. I have the bolt that drives the external brass timing based tach drive, large with a slot in it.


would removing that bolt be enough to release the armature? plus the three bolts holding the housing of course. any good suggestions to hold the armature while loosening this bolt? I don't want to wedge the fiber gear, is there a special trick? wink

thanks so much, it does seem rather straightforward, even to a rank beginner bigt

edit to get signature


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#30881 - 11/06/07 11:28 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 871
trevinoz Online content
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trevinoz  Online Content
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Posts: 871
newcastle australia
Snowbeard, after you remove the nut, you will need a puller which screws into the internal thread of the gear.

#30882 - 11/07/07 12:42 am Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Aug 2007
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snowbeard Offline
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snowbeard  Offline
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Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
aw crap. I've got a good bicycle crank puller that is the same principle, but that's not going to help me here...

maybe I can borrow one locally. unless there's an easy fabrication...

and if I just pull on it I'll likely bust up the armature, at least I've gleaned that much, it dawned on me now that you say it, but thanks for the tip.


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#30884 - 11/07/07 2:13 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Alex Offline
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Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Mind you the following is in no way the "proper" way to do this, but it works:

Find a CEI bolt that threads into the gear. I forget the size, but I seem to remember 3/8...anyone?

Anyway, see if you can find one (possibly somewhere else on the bike) that's more than 3" long. Then use a claw hammer as a slide hammer to pull on it or put a block of wood under the hammer to protect the timing box gasket surface and pry. Should pop right off.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#30885 - 11/07/07 6:02 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Aug 2007
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snowbeard Offline
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snowbeard  Offline
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Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
hmm. I've actually got the three mounting bolts loosened already, and the slotted bolt is out, along with it's lockwasher. but the magneto housing is still dead solid to the timing cover, no play there, so it seems the tapping is out until I get the housing loose. is there any other attachment point besides the three mounting bolts, or is it just the mag gear on the pinion holding it tight? I didn't want to pull too hard on it if it would be pulling on the armature...

I tried some gentle wiggling of the mag gear, but stopped short of actually prying. it seems pretty solid. the bolt idea sounds good, but I don't have any spare brit thread bolts around! :rolleyes: what is that pulling the pinion against? is it just the bearing race? or would it possibly pull on the armature?


thanks again, I will order the real tool soon, but hopefully I can figure this out sooner to get my mag in the mail!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#30886 - 11/07/07 6:57 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
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Dave Comeau  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
The 3/8 BSF end of the mag shaft is not hardened.
Even hitting it with a brass hammer will mush it out.
You should not pry the gear off, it will probably break the fiber gear or the teeth.
Buy the puller. It works for the plain gear only (which is what you have) and not the AA style.


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
#30887 - 11/07/07 7:34 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Feb 2006
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RGSROB Online content
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RGSROB  Online Content
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Ontario , Canada
Snowy, don't **** around-buy the correct puller or make one.You will almost certainly time it wrong(everybody does) and you may have to have the pinion on and off a few times.With the extractor it is controlled and easy without you risk knackering quite a few things!

#30888 - 11/07/07 7:49 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 607
RGSROB Online content
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RGSROB  Online Content
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Ontario , Canada
if you can get one of the cylinder head hold down bolt assemblies from a B series engine.
the lower hollow nut portion that threads into the crankcase is the correct thread for the ID thread of the fibre gear.You will have to cut the head bolt part off and thread the plain hole of the hollow nut- 7/16 anything will work.
put a 2 inch long bolt in and you have your puller

#30890 - 11/07/07 8:39 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Aug 2007
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snowbeard Offline
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snowbeard  Offline
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US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
now that's an intimate knowledge of multiple bsa bikes right there!! I'll see if one of those head bolts passes thru my hands, but I expect I'll just order the tool.

I already guessed that I'd muck it up with the timing and have to re-pull it, so I'll just be patient and wait for my tool.

thanks!!!

edit: and if I were inclined to whack it, I'd likely use a wood dowel and dead blow mallet. but keeping the hollow nut makes sense to! the pinion has a nice divet on the end to catch the puller, but I'll probably hold off for the tool in any case. I'm still learning all this, and the BFH is really out of my league, never have been much of a whacker anyway, unless you ask my friends :p


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#30891 - 11/07/07 9:04 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,073
gREgg-K Offline
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gREgg-K  Offline

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Ottawa, Canada
I just had a look at the fiber drive gear I have here, and I make the extractor thread to be metric!

It is too large to be 5/8" and too small to be 11/16, and thereafter, careful measurement makes it as 17mm. I don't have a fastener on hand to verify it absolutely, but my thread pitch gauge verifies it as 1.25.

So, if you have access to bicycle extractors (which are most likely metric) you should find something that will work.

Alternately, if you can't find the proper tool, you might try making one starting with a short 17mm x 1.25 hex bolt, and drilling/tapping its center for a suitable extractor stud.

Let us know how you make out. If you send your mag to me, I will evaluate what work it needs, and then repair/restore it as desired.

Best wishes,
.. gREgg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
#30892 - 11/08/07 1:57 am Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
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snowbeard Offline
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snowbeard  Offline
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US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
oi vey! so many threads around here!! bigt


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#30893 - 11/08/07 12:40 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
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Dave Comeau  Offline
Crew Chief

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
Yep There it is. right in the conversion tables in the BSA book. A5065 chilton/clymers I forgot which.
Cycle thread (No way I could believe it was metric) confused

11/16-20TPI series, .050 pitch, depth of threads .0266, major dia .6875, effective diameter .6609, minor.6343.
I will make a new puller during break today, because I couldn't find mine last night.
bigt
added:
break is over, puller is made, works great,
Just need to harden it tonight, I used O-1 for the material. beerchug


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
#30894 - 11/08/07 3:24 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline
Crew Chief

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
Quote:
Originally posted by gREgg-K:


SNIP


Let us know how you make out. If you send your mag to me, I will evaluate what work it needs, and then repair/restore it as desired.

Best wishes,
.. gREgg
I'm just curious gREgg:
How do you measure the magneto field strength and can you gauss them up if you find them weak. What percentage of mags do find deficient field strength?
Thanks


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
#30895 - 11/08/07 4:11 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,073
gREgg-K Offline
BritBike Forum member
gREgg-K  Offline

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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,073
Ottawa, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by dynodave:
<SNIP>
Cycle thread (No way I could believe it was metric) confused

11/16-20TPI series, .050 pitch, depth of threads .0266, major dia .6875, effective diameter .6609, minor.6343<SNIP>
Good work Dave!

I had a hard time believing it was metric too, but then there is is only .08 difference between 20 tpi and 1.25 metric, and 11/16" is about 0.030" larger in diameter than 17 mm.

I just didn't think an 11/16 x 20 thread would go in there, and I was tempted to machine up a stub just to try it out but I was more concerned about coming up with a solution that snowbeard could use at home.

.. gREgg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
#30896 - 11/08/07 4:23 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,073
gREgg-K Offline
BritBike Forum member
gREgg-K  Offline

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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,073
Ottawa, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by dynodave:
Quote:
Originally posted by gREgg-K:


SNIP


Let us know how you make out. If you send your mag to me, I will evaluate what work it needs, and then repair/restore it as desired.

Best wishes,
.. gREgg
I'm just curious gREgg:
How do you measure the magneto field strength and can you gauss them up if you find them weak. What percentage of mags do find deficient field strength?
Thanks
With experience, a rough check can be done with a screwdriver against the magnets. If I have any doubts, I infer the field strength by scoping the pulse height of the primary waveform while its running under load in my test bed.

The ALNICO magnets are usually very good, and loss of magnetism was really only a problem with pre-war Magdynos with the older magnets held in with grub screws. Those magnets lost strength if the unit was stored for lengthy periods without the armature in place, or a least a keeper. I've only had one K series mag that I considered marginal, and that housing had enough other problems that I simply replaced that housing with a good used one.

I used to have a magnet re-charging resource locally, but he closed down a couple of years ago. It really hasn't been necessary to come up with another one.

... gREgg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
#30897 - 11/08/07 5:19 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
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Posts: 1,038
snowbeard Offline
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snowbeard  Offline
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Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
nice Dave, do you have a full machine shop then?

I just ordered my puller this morning, so I'm not going to pursue making my own now, but just curious for when I am bulking up my shop!!

did you start with a bolt, or go completely from scratch?


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#30898 - 11/08/07 5:42 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline
Crew Chief

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
The tool was made from scratch with O-1 oil hardening tool steel.
I have a bit of machining capability at home with a bridgeport/DRO and a small lathe. It is mostly for making tooling and fixtures. I mostly have electronics, physics, and general tools for doing motorcycle(norton, BSA, and Ducati) and Lotus car stuff in the garage. I go to one of two local friends and borrow their machine shops full facilities if I need to get serious... laugh
If I'm at work 8-4 I have access to the same....but not much free time to play mad

I have been building a gausser to remagnetize magneto's. More recently I fired up my surface grinder to make the "armature" components like in the Lucas magneto service sheet.
I have found that by using a measuring fixture with the gaussmeter, that the bodies show 195-205 gauss typical. One guy from NY sent me his, after a professional rebuild. It measured 165 gauss. That seems low. No report of before and after was given and I doubt it was measured or remagnetized. This has prompted the finishing of my magnetic tools.

I feel there is nothing like science to demistify the magneto.


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
#30899 - 11/08/07 5:50 pm Re: removing A10 magneto advice  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
snowbeard Offline
BritBike Forum member
snowbeard  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
very nice, I can only hope to build up my knowledge and toolbase to that level!!

the fellow I have been speaking with in Georgia includes remagnetizing the housing as simply part of the labor of testing it, since it's already apart.

maybe I should keep an eye out for an old oscilloscope, eh!?!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid

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